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Please keep the QQ to a minimum if you do not like this update. We are happy to hear your reasoning for not liking a ranked system, but no "OMG VOLVO WHY" posts. |
On December 17 2013 04:52 Lavitage2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 23:01 Kabras wrote:On December 16 2013 22:48 Nuttyguy wrote:
dont like how the system works( still in the testing games)
i'm losing MMR for winning by playing the offlane/support roles.
lost 600 mmr in a split push game against furion and tinker as a CM, and i'm assuming that buying wards/ hard support doesn't count towards invidivual performance nor does playing as the guy who only dies on your team while getting a teamwipe.
The individual thing is just bad. i don't think it's possible to lose 600 mmr in one game. second, i've won like 5 games as a support with 0 kills, 2-5 deaths and ~20-25 assists and my mmr went up just as much as after the games i play carry in and go like 10-1 with a ton of last hits (~25 mmr increase after each win). idk if you were solo queuing tho, i'm talking about solo q mmr. Back when performance bars were a thing they were based on your KDA total compared to the KDA total of all your teammates. If the game was a blowout where everyone on your team was getting raped, then it would count like a normal loss with a minor penalty. If the game was a win for your team wherein you were the guy getting focused every fight, you would lose a huge chunk off your bar since it was your low KDA being compared to the nicely padded stats of your teammates. I bet they brought this system back for ranked. Maybe I'll go back to picking windrunner every game, KSing with powershot, waiting out losing games in the fountain with the occasional XP grab, and finishing every game with 0 deaths, see where that takes me.
It would be an intelligent move to read the first post of the first page of this topic as it answers your question
In general that is some valuable knowledge in a forum as all our discussion is based on that first post
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On December 17 2013 05:02 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 04:52 Lavitage2 wrote:On December 16 2013 23:01 Kabras wrote:On December 16 2013 22:48 Nuttyguy wrote:
dont like how the system works( still in the testing games)
i'm losing MMR for winning by playing the offlane/support roles.
lost 600 mmr in a split push game against furion and tinker as a CM, and i'm assuming that buying wards/ hard support doesn't count towards invidivual performance nor does playing as the guy who only dies on your team while getting a teamwipe.
The individual thing is just bad. i don't think it's possible to lose 600 mmr in one game. second, i've won like 5 games as a support with 0 kills, 2-5 deaths and ~20-25 assists and my mmr went up just as much as after the games i play carry in and go like 10-1 with a ton of last hits (~25 mmr increase after each win). idk if you were solo queuing tho, i'm talking about solo q mmr. Back when performance bars were a thing they were based on your KDA total compared to the KDA total of all your teammates. If the game was a blowout where everyone on your team was getting raped, then it would count like a normal loss with a minor penalty. If the game was a win for your team wherein you were the guy getting focused every fight, you would lose a huge chunk off your bar since it was your low KDA being compared to the nicely padded stats of your teammates. I bet they brought this system back for ranked. Maybe I'll go back to picking windrunner every game, KSing with powershot, waiting out losing games in the fountain with the occasional XP grab, and finishing every game with 0 deaths, see where that takes me. It would be an intelligent move to read the first post of the first page of this topic as it answers your question In general that is some valuable knowledge in a forum as all our discussion is based on that first post
I read that post when valve first put it up on their blog. It doesn't confirm or deny what I said, it only makes vague statements that your individual performance matters in some way. I'm discussing the details.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Well it's great to have a visible rating, however what's the point of having a number that you have nothing to compare to. I think they should attach at least some sort of additional qualifier, like leagues in SC, to make it meaningful.
It's funny that I often play with my bro and probably 90% of our games are together (so same wins and losses), and our party ratings are about 700 points apart, his being higher and he is usually playing high kill count heroes and I play support. I think their individual performance evaluation is heavily skewed towards high KDA heroes which is IMO pretty pointless.
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MAYBE it's possible that you die more, kill less, buy less wards, etc etc than other supports while your brother is relatively better than the population of carries/mids. Dunno...
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On December 17 2013 06:08 Random() wrote:
Well it's great to have a visible rating, however what's the point of having a number that you have nothing to compare to. I think they should attach at least some sort of additional qualifier, like leagues in SC, to make it meaningful.
It's funny that I often play with my bro and probably 90% of our games are together (so same wins and losses), and our party ratings are about 700 points apart, his being higher and he is usually playing high kill count heroes and I play support. I think their individual performance evaluation is heavily skewed towards high KDA heroes which is IMO pretty pointless.
Would be interesting if you had actual numbers, I suspect 90% of games together is more like 60%. If we had two account that played 100% together but had different MMRs we could look at the difference and see how much game stats influence the ratings.
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On December 17 2013 06:08 Random() wrote:
Well it's great to have a visible rating, however what's the point of having a number that you have nothing to compare to. I think they should attach at least some sort of additional qualifier, like leagues in SC, to make it meaningful.
It's funny that I often play with my bro and probably 90% of our games are together (so same wins and losses), and our party ratings are about 700 points apart, his being higher and he is usually playing high kill count heroes and I play support. I think their individual performance evaluation is heavily skewed towards high KDA heroes which is IMO pretty pointless.
I have pretty high rating and I play a lot of supports. At least 50% but probably around 60-70% somewhere. If it's influenced by KDA it's not that big I think
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
What is a 'high KDA' or a 'low KDA' hero? I play mostly support but my KDA is still quite high, because, you know, assists are pretty easy to get and is something you should at least be getting as a support who is required to participate in fights from the get go.
I guess a 'high KDA' hero would be like, Zeus, but assuming you don't just feed every game and know how to support your KDA should be good regardless.
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High KDA supports like Enchantress / Wisp
Low KDA supports like Dazzle / Chen
Way easier to achieve high KDA with Storm compared to Chen
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Played 4 games so far in ranked. Made the mistake of leaving all game modes on so I ended up in 4 AP games, with 2 of them being decent and 2 of them being horrible.
Definitely going to only play CM or CD for the rest of them.
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On December 17 2013 07:33 DrPandaPhD wrote:
High KDA supports like Enchantress / Wisp
Low KDA supports like Dazzle / Chen
Way easier to achieve high KDA with Storm compared to Chen
Well ur not playing 4/4/0/0 chen with dagon often enough i see.
Huehuehue...
KDA is a dumb term, KDR is what people usually mean. Assists are incredibly irrelevant in dota since gold is given as an AoE not to "people who damaged" anyway.
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Assists are usually more a product of which hero you're playing. A lot of heroes (e.g. Furion) can get assists on virtually every kill even if they make little to no contribution to the game overall.
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I'm curious what the reasoning is for allowing 5-stacks to play ranked.
If you're a 5-stack and you're attempting to tryhard, why are you not playing TMM?
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On December 17 2013 07:40 Belisarius wrote:
I'm curious what the reasoning is for allowing 5-stacks to play ranked.
If you're a 5-stack and you're attempting to tryhard, why are you not playing TMM?
Because -CD and -AP are more fun than -CM.
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i actually think its a bad idea to base the mmr on so many things, id rather have it only win/loss style again like in hon and if u stack with lows/highs u just dont get/lose anything
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I would think it only does much when your uncertainty is high, it's exactly what we used to call smurf protection before.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On December 17 2013 07:16 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:08 Random() wrote:
Well it's great to have a visible rating, however what's the point of having a number that you have nothing to compare to. I think they should attach at least some sort of additional qualifier, like leagues in SC, to make it meaningful.
It's funny that I often play with my bro and probably 90% of our games are together (so same wins and losses), and our party ratings are about 700 points apart, his being higher and he is usually playing high kill count heroes and I play support. I think their individual performance evaluation is heavily skewed towards high KDA heroes which is IMO pretty pointless. I have pretty high rating and I play a lot of supports. At least 50% but probably around 60-70% somewhere. If it's influenced by KDA it's not that big I think
I didn't mean to say that you cannot get a high rating as a support, I was just wondering what could cause such a big discrepancy when most of our wins and losses were shared and the most obvious thing that comes to mind is that he has way more kills and less deaths on average.
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On December 17 2013 08:00 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 07:16 DrPandaPhD wrote:On December 17 2013 06:08 Random() wrote:
Well it's great to have a visible rating, however what's the point of having a number that you have nothing to compare to. I think they should attach at least some sort of additional qualifier, like leagues in SC, to make it meaningful.
It's funny that I often play with my bro and probably 90% of our games are together (so same wins and losses), and our party ratings are about 700 points apart, his being higher and he is usually playing high kill count heroes and I play support. I think their individual performance evaluation is heavily skewed towards high KDA heroes which is IMO pretty pointless. I have pretty high rating and I play a lot of supports. At least 50% but probably around 60-70% somewhere. If it's influenced by KDA it's not that big I think I didn't mean to say that you cannot get a high rating as a support, I was just wondering what could cause such a big discrepancy when most of our wins and losses were shared and the most obvious thing that comes to mind is that he has way more kills and less deaths on average.
depending on how many games you guys have actually played together, that's not so shocking. we tend to treat stats like this very liberally and are often inaccurate. "i play with my friend 90% of the time!" even if the 90% is in fact accurate, over hundreds or thousands (for some) games, you could have wildly different mmrs, and 700 is barely out of the uncertainly level for most people starting out.
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Let's look at an example. My mean rating is 6000 and my uncertainty is 500 so my MMR would be 4500. I just finished a game where I am heavily favored to win. My team gains 300 points to be distributed between our players. The system adds 50 uncertainty before the game and my uncertainty drops to 480 so I am at 530. My team's total uncertainty is 2000 so I get (530/2000)x300=about 80 points. My new MMR would be 6080 - (3x 530) = 4490. A net decrease of 10 MMR."
is that actually true?!?!?!?!?
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On December 17 2013 07:35 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 07:33 DrPandaPhD wrote:
High KDA supports like Enchantress / Wisp
Low KDA supports like Dazzle / Chen
Way easier to achieve high KDA with Storm compared to Chen Well ur not playing 4/4/0/0 chen with dagon often enough i see. Huehuehue... KDA is a dumb term, KDR is what people usually mean. Assists are incredibly irrelevant in dota since gold is given as an AoE not to "people who damaged" anyway.
How can you say assists are incredibly irrelevant? It's probably the MOST relevant. Your kills participation (kills + assists relative to team's total kills) is a pretty good indicator of skill more often than not. Low assist count usually means you are a bad support who isn't active on the map. Low assist count is maybe acceptable on Treant, since your living armor casts won't be reflected in any stats.
In your KDA vs KDR comparison, the person who went 5-5-0 might have an even KDR but I would deem him less valuable than the person who went 0-5-10.
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On December 17 2013 08:28 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +Let's look at an example. My mean rating is 6000 and my uncertainty is 500 so my MMR would be 4500. I just finished a game where I am heavily favored to win. My team gains 300 points to be distributed between our players. The system adds 50 uncertainty before the game and my uncertainty drops to 480 so I am at 530. My team's total uncertainty is 2000 so I get (530/2000)x300=about 80 points. My new MMR would be 6080 - (3x 530) = 4490. A net decrease of 10 MMR."
is that actually true?!?!?!?!?
A) no B) have you read his math? lol he can't even add XD
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EPT
