• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:09
CEST 06:09
KST 13:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)38Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format16[IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend!5Weekly Cups (July 6 - 12): Protoss strike back12BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) [D] Wireframe Casting Removed Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard" Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format Is the larve respawn broken?
Tourneys
Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) WardiTV Summer Cup 2026 GSL CK #5 Race War RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event HomeStory Cup 29
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family
Brood War
General
Pros Debate: Zerg Unfairly Nerfed? (ASL S22 map) Etiquete rules in Asl? BW General Discussion Recent recommended BW games Recommended FPV games (post-KeSPA)
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament - Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend!
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story Tennis[sport] Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
The Experiences We Want and …
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7078 users

Ranked matchmaking coming to Dota 2 - Page 110

Forum Index > Closed
2303 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 108 109 110 111 112 116 Next
Please keep the QQ to a minimum if you do not like this update. We are happy to hear your reasoning for not liking a ranked system, but no "OMG VOLVO WHY" posts.
Laserist
Profile Joined September 2011
Turkey4269 Posts
January 18 2014 14:25 GMT
#2181
I don't want to play against stacks. This is the worst part of the ranked MM.
Every game against stacks are the worst experiences that I ever had. Skype is too strong for me to handle solo.
“Are you with the Cartel? Because you’re definitely an Angel.”
juracule
Profile Joined November 2013
292 Posts
January 18 2014 15:38 GMT
#2182
On January 18 2014 23:25 Laserist wrote:
I don't want to play against stacks. This is the worst part of the ranked MM.
Every game against stacks are the worst experiences that I ever had. Skype is too strong for me to handle solo.

well you're outta luck cuz valve thinks it's far more important to add a server-side aesthetic option instead
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
January 18 2014 15:56 GMT
#2183
On January 18 2014 23:25 Laserist wrote:
I don't want to play against stacks. This is the worst part of the ranked MM.
Every game against stacks are the worst experiences that I ever had. Skype is too strong for me to handle solo.

Assumptions. Sounds almost like the moment you identify a stack, you lose the game.
Pretty sure they will eventually do something about it, like broaden the discrepancy between more and less stacked teams (what does that even mean...), seeing that everyday there has to be someone mentioning it.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
ChunderBoy
Profile Joined August 2011
3242 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 20:31:52
January 18 2014 20:29 GMT
#2184
On January 18 2014 20:59 Laurens wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2014 20:33 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
you guys complaining about elo hell should tune into singsings stream. 6k mmr and his supports dont even know what to do against a solo bounty hunter....they just take sings xp instead of ganking,pulling or stacking.


One of those was Beesa right? "looking for gf 6K MMR" either him or a fanboy.

Well you can tell him how to play vs solo bounty when he visits this thread later then ^^

not me. and bh is prolly the easiest hero to get fed off when he is offlaning. also sing will probably get 4.5kish teammates when he solo qs.
"mmr is a social construct" - tumblr
phantaxx
Profile Joined May 2010
United States201 Posts
January 18 2014 22:30 GMT
#2185
I hate how you can abandon after all the picks are done and have no stats/mmr recorded, I'm noticing more often now and just had 2 games in a row where someone didn't like their teams lineup and abandoned, and there is no mmr change from it. Seems a bit abusive, they get out of an almost certain loss.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 18 2014 22:33 GMT
#2186
On January 19 2014 07:30 phantaxx wrote:
I hate how you can abandon after all the picks are done and have no stats/mmr recorded, I'm noticing more often now and just had 2 games in a row where someone didn't like their teams lineup and abandoned, and there is no mmr change from it. Seems a bit abusive, they get out of an almost certain loss.

All pick sort of sucks for that. They still get an abandon I believe, however.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
January 18 2014 22:36 GMT
#2187
On January 19 2014 07:30 phantaxx wrote:
I hate how you can abandon after all the picks are done and have no stats/mmr recorded, I'm noticing more often now and just had 2 games in a row where someone didn't like their teams lineup and abandoned, and there is no mmr change from it. Seems a bit abusive, they get out of an almost certain loss.

I found out that the most tryhard lu are easily beatable bc most of the times people playing them have no clue how to dota hence they pick good heroes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
January 18 2014 22:39 GMT
#2188
On January 19 2014 07:30 phantaxx wrote:
I hate how you can abandon after all the picks are done and have no stats/mmr recorded, I'm noticing more often now and just had 2 games in a row where someone didn't like their teams lineup and abandoned, and there is no mmr change from it. Seems a bit abusive, they get out of an almost certain loss.

Yeah but their entire stack gets an abandon, and if they do it enough they get put into lpq.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Avs
Profile Joined November 2010
Korea (North)857 Posts
January 19 2014 00:15 GMT
#2189
I just wish Valve put in a lot more effort into developing a performance rating for the individual rather than a mm rating based off of wins or losses.
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
January 19 2014 00:35 GMT
#2190
For the tenth time, its the best system. Nothing else matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-19 01:34:17
January 19 2014 01:31 GMT
#2191
best system was no rating but if we need to have some this is fine. if we have some performance thing everyones gonna play gankers have shadowblade and once your team starts to lose hide in trees and wait for it to end
Jinxed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States6450 Posts
January 19 2014 01:55 GMT
#2192
On January 19 2014 10:31 zezamer wrote:
best system was no rating but if we need to have some this is fine. if we have some performance thing everyones gonna play gankers have shadowblade and once your team starts to lose hide in trees and wait for it to end


You always had a rating. No rating (at all, visible or not visible doesn't matter) means that pretty much every match you get is going to suck with the exception of like 2 or 3 really good matches every 100+ games.

That being said, individual performance is bullshit. If you don't do enough to win, then that's all that matters.
LiquidDota Staff"LeLoup is a great name pls undo." -Liquid`Nazgul
maru~
Profile Joined February 2013
2345 Posts
January 19 2014 02:00 GMT
#2193
On January 19 2014 10:55 LeLoup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 10:31 zezamer wrote:
best system was no rating but if we need to have some this is fine. if we have some performance thing everyones gonna play gankers have shadowblade and once your team starts to lose hide in trees and wait for it to end

No rating (at all, visible or not visible doesn't matter) means that pretty much every match you get is going to suck with the exception of like 2 or 3 really good matches every 100+ games.

So nothing would change?
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-19 02:07:58
January 19 2014 02:06 GMT
#2194
On January 19 2014 09:35 Erasme wrote:
For the tenth time, its the best system. Nothing else matters.

On January 19 2014 10:31 zezamer wrote:
best system was no rating but if we need to have some this is fine. if we have some performance thing everyones gonna play gankers have shadowblade and once your team starts to lose hide in trees and wait for it to end

Leloup wrote:That being said, individual performance is bullshit. If you don't do enough to win, then that's all that matters.


This is only something very low level minds (not just DOTA, in complete general) would accept. Its entirely possible to build a set of conditions unique to each hero that gauges how good you are with them or what you did to help win especially with all stats being kept track of like in gems. If the criteria were as complex as gems with their diversity in what they can count and keep track of, it would most likely work just fine. Bringing up "K/D will be the ultimate goal" isn't even a point since there's already proof that a much more complex and involving system is already in place and could easily be implemented. This is the only possible way an intelligent mind can see this. There is no point that can be made against the complex system idea that would be considered in any way logical or correct unless the person making that decision were retarded or unthinking/uncreative at the very least.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
January 19 2014 02:16 GMT
#2195
On January 19 2014 11:06 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 09:35 Erasme wrote:
For the tenth time, its the best system. Nothing else matters.

Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 10:31 zezamer wrote:
best system was no rating but if we need to have some this is fine. if we have some performance thing everyones gonna play gankers have shadowblade and once your team starts to lose hide in trees and wait for it to end

Show nested quote +
Leloup wrote:That being said, individual performance is bullshit. If you don't do enough to win, then that's all that matters.


This is only something very low level minds (not just DOTA, in complete general) would accept. Its entirely possible to build a set of conditions unique to each hero that gauges how good you are with them or what you did to help win especially with all stats being kept track of like in gems. If the criteria were as complex as gems with their diversity in what they can count and keep track of, it would most likely work just fine. Bringing up "K/D will be the ultimate goal" isn't even a point since there's already proof that a much more complex and involving system is already in place and could easily be implemented. This is the only possible way an intelligent mind can see this. There is no point that can be made against the complex system idea that would be considered in any way logical or correct unless the person making that decision were retarded or unthinking/uncreative at the very least.

And yet, noone ever mentions a way to track individual performance that could not be gamed and would be fair for every kind of hero and playstyle. Lots of retarded and uncreative people.
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
January 19 2014 02:17 GMT
#2196
elohell till 5k ive read somewhere on teamliquid, gg valves
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
January 19 2014 02:20 GMT
#2197
On January 19 2014 11:16 SKC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 11:06 sCCrooked wrote:
On January 19 2014 09:35 Erasme wrote:
For the tenth time, its the best system. Nothing else matters.

On January 19 2014 10:31 zezamer wrote:
best system was no rating but if we need to have some this is fine. if we have some performance thing everyones gonna play gankers have shadowblade and once your team starts to lose hide in trees and wait for it to end

Leloup wrote:That being said, individual performance is bullshit. If you don't do enough to win, then that's all that matters.


This is only something very low level minds (not just DOTA, in complete general) would accept. Its entirely possible to build a set of conditions unique to each hero that gauges how good you are with them or what you did to help win especially with all stats being kept track of like in gems. If the criteria were as complex as gems with their diversity in what they can count and keep track of, it would most likely work just fine. Bringing up "K/D will be the ultimate goal" isn't even a point since there's already proof that a much more complex and involving system is already in place and could easily be implemented. This is the only possible way an intelligent mind can see this. There is no point that can be made against the complex system idea that would be considered in any way logical or correct unless the person making that decision were retarded or unthinking/uncreative at the very least.

And yet, noone ever mentions a way to track individual performance that could not be gamed and would be fair for every kind of hero and playstyle. Lots of retarded and uncreative people.


Sadly, yes. Welcome to the real world. Hope it didn't shock you too much.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
January 19 2014 02:22 GMT
#2198
On January 19 2014 11:06 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 09:35 Erasme wrote:
For the tenth time, its the best system. Nothing else matters.

Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 10:31 zezamer wrote:
best system was no rating but if we need to have some this is fine. if we have some performance thing everyones gonna play gankers have shadowblade and once your team starts to lose hide in trees and wait for it to end

Show nested quote +
Leloup wrote:That being said, individual performance is bullshit. If you don't do enough to win, then that's all that matters.


This is only something very low level minds (not just DOTA, in complete general) would accept. Its entirely possible to build a set of conditions unique to each hero that gauges how good you are with them or what you did to help win especially with all stats being kept track of like in gems. If the criteria were as complex as gems with their diversity in what they can count and keep track of, it would most likely work just fine. Bringing up "K/D will be the ultimate goal" isn't even a point since there's already proof that a much more complex and involving system is already in place and could easily be implemented. This is the only possible way an intelligent mind can see this. There is no point that can be made against the complex system idea that would be considered in any way logical or correct unless the person making that decision were retarded or unthinking/uncreative at the very least.

Then go for it and submit it to Valve. It's easy to call people dumb and suggest something unrealisable just because.
Low level mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
January 19 2014 02:23 GMT
#2199
On January 19 2014 11:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 11:16 SKC wrote:
On January 19 2014 11:06 sCCrooked wrote:
On January 19 2014 09:35 Erasme wrote:
For the tenth time, its the best system. Nothing else matters.

On January 19 2014 10:31 zezamer wrote:
best system was no rating but if we need to have some this is fine. if we have some performance thing everyones gonna play gankers have shadowblade and once your team starts to lose hide in trees and wait for it to end

Leloup wrote:That being said, individual performance is bullshit. If you don't do enough to win, then that's all that matters.


This is only something very low level minds (not just DOTA, in complete general) would accept. Its entirely possible to build a set of conditions unique to each hero that gauges how good you are with them or what you did to help win especially with all stats being kept track of like in gems. If the criteria were as complex as gems with their diversity in what they can count and keep track of, it would most likely work just fine. Bringing up "K/D will be the ultimate goal" isn't even a point since there's already proof that a much more complex and involving system is already in place and could easily be implemented. This is the only possible way an intelligent mind can see this. There is no point that can be made against the complex system idea that would be considered in any way logical or correct unless the person making that decision were retarded or unthinking/uncreative at the very least.

And yet, noone ever mentions a way to track individual performance that could not be gamed and would be fair for every kind of hero and playstyle. Lots of retarded and uncreative people.


Sadly, yes. Welcome to the real world. Hope it didn't shock you too much.

You should be the first one to enlighthen us, since it's so easy.
Jinxed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States6450 Posts
January 19 2014 02:28 GMT
#2200
On January 19 2014 11:06 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 09:35 Erasme wrote:
For the tenth time, its the best system. Nothing else matters.

Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 10:31 zezamer wrote:
best system was no rating but if we need to have some this is fine. if we have some performance thing everyones gonna play gankers have shadowblade and once your team starts to lose hide in trees and wait for it to end

Show nested quote +
Leloup wrote:That being said, individual performance is bullshit. If you don't do enough to win, then that's all that matters.


This is only something very low level minds (not just DOTA, in complete general) would accept. Its entirely possible to build a set of conditions unique to each hero that gauges how good you are with them or what you did to help win especially with all stats being kept track of like in gems. If the criteria were as complex as gems with their diversity in what they can count and keep track of, it would most likely work just fine. Bringing up "K/D will be the ultimate goal" isn't even a point since there's already proof that a much more complex and involving system is already in place and could easily be implemented. This is the only possible way an intelligent mind can see this. There is no point that can be made against the complex system idea that would be considered in any way logical or correct unless the person making that decision were retarded or unthinking/uncreative at the very least.


Wow good attempt to talk down much?

Alright let's indulge because you seem to have the answers and clearly feel slighted over the fact that your elite level skill are clearly not being recognized by Valve's super number system.

There is a big difference between numbers in a game and actual game impact. You can sit there and have all the best numbers for a game, but considering how variable and different each game is the value of each number changes along with everything else. The difference between a good 1 man black hole/RP/Ravage and a bad one is not something that the game is ever going to accurately be able to calculate. If you land nothing but 1 man black holes, but they're always full duration and secure kills on the enemy hard carry that's a lot different than blowing one on a half health crystal maiden. Still for the most part, unless the algorithm can say what heroes you've caught in it, it will still be just 1 hero in a black hole.

It's the same thing for pretty much every other statistic in the game. Kills, deaths, assists, gold earned. It's all varied based on so many other things that writing an algorithm that takes into account the 150+ factors that really go to show what is a 'good' performance that it doesn't matter at all.

If you didn't make enough of an impact to win, you don't deserve to win.

That's what it comes down to. That is what every match comes down to and the basic thing that 90% of the MMR Hell bs is. People think you can't get there playing a support, but the reality is that 95% of the people complaining have no idea how to actually play support. Same with the people that complain about teammates and how they manage to feed, but no one ever says about how they adapted their game to adjust for the fact that the enemy was ahead. It's always about their item timing, or their kda or their gpm.

So yeah, it does come down to winning or losing. Because when you cut away all of the other bullshit, if you're really better than people, and you really understand the game, you will win more games than you lose.
LiquidDota Staff"LeLoup is a great name pls undo." -Liquid`Nazgul
Prev 1 108 109 110 111 112 116 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
Crank Gathers S4: Group Stage
LiquipediaDiscussion
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
23:00
FSL playoffsTeamLeague STvsASH
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft500
RuFF_SC2 203
trigger 68
FoxeR 42
SortOf 31
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 961
Noble 43
Icarus 9
Dewaltoss 6
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm172
League of Legends
JimRising 709
Counter-Strike
summit1g9784
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King331
Heroes of the Storm
Trikslyr48
Other Games
PiGStarcraft429
ViBE181
XaKoH 128
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2503
StarCraft: Brood War
Afreeca ASL 1274
UltimateBattle 100
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 86
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 15
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt270
Other Games
• Scarra1728
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
4h 51m
Clem vs Lambo
Scarlett vs Cure
CranKy Ducklings
5h 51m
Epic.LAN
8h 51m
IPSL
11h 51m
Dragon vs Hawk
RSL Revival
1d 4h
Classic vs Trap
herO vs SHIN
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 5h
OSC
1d 8h
IPSL
1d 11h
Bonyth vs Ret
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
[ Show More ]
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S3: W3
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
YSL S3
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 1
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W4
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
Escore Tournament S3: W5
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E3
Logitech G Connect 2026
StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.