EPTLow level mind.
Ranked matchmaking coming to Dota 2 - Page 111
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Please keep the QQ to a minimum if you do not like this update. We are happy to hear your reasoning for not liking a ranked system, but no "OMG VOLVO WHY" posts. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
Low level mind. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12248 Posts
On January 19 2014 11:06 sCCrooked wrote: This is only something very low level minds (not just DOTA, in complete general) would accept. Its entirely possible to build a set of conditions unique to each hero that gauges how good you are with them or what you did to help win especially with all stats being kept track of like in gems. If the criteria were as complex as gems with their diversity in what they can count and keep track of, it would most likely work just fine. Bringing up "K/D will be the ultimate goal" isn't even a point since there's already proof that a much more complex and involving system is already in place and could easily be implemented. This is the only possible way an intelligent mind can see this. There is no point that can be made against the complex system idea that would be considered in any way logical or correct unless the person making that decision were retarded or unthinking/uncreative at the very least. Part of the appeal of Dota is the flexibility of each hero and being able to think outside the box. If you were graded on your skill build or item choices or K/D then we would never see things like support Alchemist or Mek on Doom, things that have proven legitimately effective at pro level. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On January 19 2014 11:06 sCCrooked wrote: This is only something very low level minds (not just DOTA, in complete general) would accept. Its entirely possible to build a set of conditions unique to each hero that gauges how good you are with them or what you did to help win especially with all stats being kept track of like in gems. If the criteria were as complex as gems with their diversity in what they can count and keep track of, it would most likely work just fine. Bringing up "K/D will be the ultimate goal" isn't even a point since there's already proof that a much more complex and involving system is already in place and could easily be implemented. This is the only possible way an intelligent mind can see this. There is no point that can be made against the complex system idea that would be considered in any way logical or correct unless the person making that decision were retarded or unthinking/uncreative at the very least. buying wards everytime they are up is good play so your "performance" should go up, right. what if your ward is completely useless because its in a bad spot. you spend money on something thats useless so thats actually a bad play obviously the skill is not buying them but putting them in correct positions by predicting whats going to happen in the game. how do you measure something like that ? or you can choose between getting a forcestaff or meka. its entire based on how the game has developed until that point which one is the correct choice what criteria would you use to determine which is correct? buying gem when the situation isnt right is just giving your opponents free gem, why would buying gem then be good criteria? just couple examples | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
That seems kind of absurd to me. I had a game where an alch was on the other team was 5k mmr (he had only 3 kills)and proceeded to farm 20 min radiance, treads, midas, shadow blade. Completely thrashing everyone in level and farm, then just flat out won the game at level 21 while everyone else was 11-13. Its pretty regular to play with or against people who are (or claim to be) over 4k and under 2500. It would explain the wildly different stompings each game, but i dont understand why valve would do something like this. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12248 Posts
On January 20 2014 15:01 Darpa wrote: So match making is putting many people of different ranks together it seems. I have been asking people i play with and looking,, and I've seen people as high has 5.1k and as low as 1600 in games with me, I'm 3100. That seems kind of absurd to me. I had a game where an alch was on the other team was 5k mmr (he had only 3 kills)and proceeded to farm 20 min radiance, treads, midas, shadow blade. Completely thrashing everyone in level and farm, then just flat out won the game at level 21 while everyone else was 11-13. Its pretty regular to play with or against people who are (or claim to be) over 4k and under 2500. It would explain the wildly different stompings each game, but i dont understand why valve would do something like this. How did you find out the ratings of the other players? They're supposed to be private unless they're your friends. If you're strictly asking then of course the numbers you get are probably not going to be very reliable. Also, the main reason you might see large deviations in MMR is because those players are usually part of a stack. I'm 4k and sometimes I play with people who are 4.5k and sometimes I play with people who are 2.5k. "wtf who let this 2.5k noob in the game" well, he's with me, that's why. | ||
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SeakayKu
United States128 Posts
rating is suppose to indicate how effective you are in a dota 2 team play that effectiveness depends on the hero you play being effective, is good, plain and simple if you play 10 solo caliberation matches and go 3-7, like me and if you get put in 3400 rating immediately, like me then SUCK IT UP!! i am as effective as average 3400 rating mofo! "i should be around 3800~4200 rating"? that is plain bullsit if you should be there, get your ratings to show it! "i can't! because my teammates suck!" ez, you are not effective enough to getting 3800~4200+ rating again, if you cannot get that rating, SUCK IT UP this system is only a few weeks old, let it settle and eventually i do believe it is going to show i am pretty happy with the ranked system am i 4k+ rating? i want to be, i thought i am, and obviously i am not i am a lowly 3400, so now all the previous teammates all of a sudden think i suck? if you have been proud of dota 2 skills pre-rank, and now you think your rating sucks? i suggest you hide your account, set it to private, and lie about your rating to your friends! ps has anyone been back to caliberation after the first caliberation? | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
On January 21 2014 01:29 SeakayKu wrote: ps has anyone been back to caliberation after the first caliberation? What do you mean? Has anyone undergone calibration a second time? | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
And no, I've never heard of anyone reentering calibration. | ||
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SeakayKu
United States128 Posts
that is what i meant (i have a history of not expressing myself clearly to this community, which was pointed out many times by planix/snowman) | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34504 Posts
On January 21 2014 01:29 SeakayKu wrote: i read 70 pages of this and i cannot take it anymore... You poor thing. | ||
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SeakayKu
United States128 Posts
and mostly i saw... you know what i saw... | ||
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FranzF1
Chile1710 Posts
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34504 Posts
On January 21 2014 02:14 FranzF1 wrote: I only have one problem with MMR, right now my last 5 matches was me + 4 stack against a 5 stack...how is that fair for me? And how else should they have done it? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 21 2014 02:14 FranzF1 wrote: I only have one problem with MMR, right now my last 5 matches was me + 4 stack against a 5 stack...how is that fair for me? How isn't it? Were the players you were with jerks? Could they not use pings? | ||
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SeakayKu
United States128 Posts
1. did anyone under caliberation find out that they are in a game with players or stacks that have already finished 1st caliberation stage? 2. so individual performance trackers are only available for caliberation games? is it presume that after caliberation, +/- rating are done the same amount to the whole team? *i suppose this ties in slightly with first question... 3. after caliberation, in general the color of player on the same team is in rating high-low order? anyone confirm this to be fact? or rather, has anyone confirm this NOT to be a fact yet? 4. the question i asked before... has anyone went under 2nd caliberation stage? based on valve have said that if they have misplaced a player in wrong bracket, the player would be re-evaluated... | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
1. I assume you get matched with people who already have their rating during calibration. You would have ridiculously long queues if they only wanted to match uncalibrated players together. 2. Nobody knows for certain. 3. Again, we don't know. It seems like it does in high level games, like 5k+ for example. But it's not really reliable. 4. Never heard of anyone. I don't know if the 5.5k guy playing on a 3k account got recalibrated. Last time I heard anything about him, he won like 25+ games in a row and stomped every single time, that was like 2 weeks ago, and I think he said on the pd forum he can't play much now. | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
On January 21 2014 01:29 SeakayKu wrote: i read 70 pages of this and i cannot take it anymore... rating is suppose to indicate how effective you are in a dota 2 team play that effectiveness depends on the hero you play being effective, is good, plain and simple if you play 10 solo caliberation matches and go 3-7, like me and if you get put in 3400 rating immediately, like me then SUCK IT UP!! i am as effective as average 3400 rating mofo! "i should be around 3800~4200 rating"? that is plain bullsit if you should be there, get your ratings to show it! "i can't! because my teammates suck!" ez, you are not effective enough to getting 3800~4200+ rating again, if you cannot get that rating, SUCK IT UP this system is only a few weeks old, let it settle and eventually i do believe it is going to show i am pretty happy with the ranked system am i 4k+ rating? i want to be, i thought i am, and obviously i am not i am a lowly 3400, so now all the previous teammates all of a sudden think i suck? if you have been proud of dota 2 skills pre-rank, and now you think your rating sucks? i suggest you hide your account, set it to private, and lie about your rating to your friends! ps has anyone been back to caliberation after the first caliberation? Really this isnt true. I went 1-9 in my MMR placement games and got put in 3500 rating. Over the course of 2 weeks my rating went up by 700 points. So people COULD complain about being the rating they should be at. After a few more games though (read 20+ at least) then their MMR begins to represent a good indication of skill in my opinion. | ||
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SeakayKu
United States128 Posts
On January 21 2014 02:48 zJayy962 wrote: Really this isnt true. I went 1-9 in my MMR placement games and got put in 3500 rating. Over the course of 2 weeks my rating went up by 700 points. So people COULD complain about being the rating they should be at. After a few more games though (read 20+ at least) then their MMR begins to represent a good indication of skill in my opinion. yay congrats for climbing! you are not rated at the level you should be at and over the course of 2 weeks, you earn back those ratings 2 weeks, how many games? so, exactly what is to be complained about? i don't see it... | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
First things first, the stats/facts that i based my opinion on: 1) My experience of current RMM is based on my games from the past 1 month. 2) I took the screenshot after i derped some team rmm with some mates (steve pls), nothing really impressive but just for the reference + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qC8Ai6x.png) What I did was played/wasted 1 game on my laptop on each account and used the command when it was not disabled, and then i played quite some amount of games after I got home on my main about 1 month ago. Glad to squeeze in some games with fellow tlers like steve/erasme/firebolt/sirjolt and some other fellas, and oh sorry kupo sorry for the lvl1 no gush tide rofl The main reason that I wrote this because of the diversity of the friends that I stacked with on my main account so I thought it has a good overview of the system: from the 'veterans that are not that good but we became friends since early beta in 2011', to 'dual stacking with a brotherly friend for a long period of time where his skills is pretty limited' + Show Spoiler + (where out of my 3k games, probably at least 300+ losses were because of him (went yolo etc...), just for the record here) (rmm can range from 5k to 2k, including a few of *cough* 'guide fans' who added me to play with them etc) 1) Valve RMM is the most accurate ranking among all the previously released (laughable) mmr sites. So the first conclusion I can draw is that Valve RMM is the most accurate ranking among all the previous mmr sites. If you have been consistently stacking with players/friends from certain skill bracket, (very likely) that you know which skill bracket you are belonged to by now. The general guideline would be: A: 'Your average player bracket': 2k± 500~800 mmr B: 'Your mildly tryhard people': 3k± 500~800 C: 'Your tryhard people who only/mostly stack with good players': 4k± 500~800 D: 'Your regulars on the first 15 pages live game players (with strong skills and most likely stack with good players regularly)': 5k± 500~800 The people who are in the overlap between 2 groups can be categorized into either group, like a 2500 player can means he is a little tryhard'er (by all means, there is nothing wrong with that, he just wants to do his best) but his mechanics/understanding of the game is rather average or he stacks mostly with his average friends etc. My wild guess: I'd say tlers are mostly among group B and C and while people from groups B to D probably watch pro games quite often, I somehow believe that you don't see players from group D to post very frequently on forum (why forum when you can play more?). It is also should be keep in mind that idiots are in every bracket, be it related to regional or how drunk/high the player or players who were distracted by external factors (eg cat, fire or a bj, reference to 735 bro). MMR by all means is a number that is defined by your accumulated win/loss of a number of games played, while it can be highly related to your skills/teammates, it can never measure one's skills strictly with a number. And that brings us to my second point. 2) Do we actually have separated solo and team mmr BEFORE the visible rmm system? I highly doubt that because from what i see that most people have a similar solo/team mmr after the calibration. And judging by valve didnt even store our replays after 10 days (used to be 30 days), I highly doubt that they have this solo/team ranking concept prior the introduction of the rmm system (in order to separate the ranking they need to know what games did we play alone or in a stack); even if they did, I don't believe they would have an accurate one (at-most I'll give them 6months before the implementation of the system which would be dated back in mid 2013). Plus by judging my huge Uncertainty showed in the command (it can only caused by the results of all the games that i have played since 2011), I think Valve doesn't have the mmr separated before the introduction of this rmm system, at least not for us relatively long time dota2 players anyway. I personally believe that this is the most important question in the whole rmm system because if my guesses were true, only the initial rankings after solo/team calibration can be statistically meaningful (ie your baseline mmr prior the visible rmm regardless solo or team queue) while the later plus/minus of mmr points from the games you played are a whole different record. Why is that? Because solo queue and team stacking are 2 different games, be it duo stack or 3/4/5 stack. 3) The not actually 'solo queue' Solo RMM. It is ridiculous to say the least. It was supposed to be a challenging mode where the system determines your mmr by 'how well you can do with 4 other strangers, same rule applied to the opponent team'. But the current solo rmm isn't like that, at all. So i don't even know what's the 'meaning' behind current solo rmm, you watch sing or any pro gamer mostly try to go mid to control the game but the game is still decided by team regardless how well they played. Solo RMM in any game would be highly luck based anyway so I am not complaining about that, I am just saying wtf is the 'meaning' behind current solo rmm. 4) 'Uncertainty' is a double edge and the introduction of 'Pro noobs hell'. While I believe that the 'subsystem' of using Uncertainty in current rmm system is the most genius part of it, it is a double edge because i actually did an experiment about it: Have my brother went through calibration to get his solo/team mmr, similar to my main which is around 4k and then I played 5 solo games on his account and he played 5 solo games on mine. All we can say is that the solo games on my main account are so damn hard. Similar mmr games, exponentially harder games, it can only due to that high uncertainty difference or it can be (partly) related to the total games played (mine has 3k games and he has like 500). I never believe in Elo hell because frankly even in my case i don't feel like i am in one, the players in the solo games of my main are experienced and most of the time they actually know what they are doing (but usually lack of good understanding of item choices especially in disadvantaged game) so the games are so damn hard because everyone more or less at the same skills/tryhardness etc. I am calling this 'Pro noobs hell' from now on, basically for accounts without a very high ranking but the games need you to spend so much effort in it (compared to other account at a similar ranking) and half of the time it is caused by the performance of your team mates. I am seriously considering abandon my main, maybe to let some people experience that 'pro noobs hell' but I have too much shit attached to the account so i can't. I think some people might have experienced/know what i am talking about here. 5) So how do I game the current RMM system? It depends on what is your approach to the game and when did you start to play dota2. If you want a >4.5k mmr account very badly or in a short period of time (less than 1 month) and say you are at 3k mmr, you might as well go buy an account. And then you play only team RMM with moderately good players and only casual solo queue, that way you get to play 'good games' but remember idiots are still everywhere. Juice dude from PD is doing an interesting experiment of playing on a 3k account to climb the solo ladder, I have total support to his project but by now we all know that it is going to take ages (even if he was that good). For players in general, you do exactly the same as you do before the RMM system, you should be only/mostly play with stack, preferably full stack, in that way at least you won't be on a losing streak (obviously don't stack with 4 casual friends etc). It is the most efficient way to maintain a good mmr and to win games, and it is even more efficient than before solo queue is a completely different thing now (in ranked or casual). And if you started dota2 after the rmm system implemented, amen to you, I am not sure whether it is possible to get to 5k with that. Caused' you used to be possible to get on page 1-5 live games with a new smurf within a day but now the player pool from new accounts is separated and on top of that you will purposely need to stack with high mmr player for many games (100+?) to boost your mmr and hope that valve use the same mmr for your solo/team mmr before you are eligible to queue ranked game. And if you meant what role should you play in the ranked since (most) people actually care about win/loss in those games? Ever wonder why streamers mostly go Mid when they are solo queue? And in my experience that playing (good) support is only worthy when you are in relatively high mmr (you gank sidelane early = snowball and win while in lower mmr it is useless or even backfire on yourself), and obviously ready to play some hardlane that you will need to support and gank and carry the game eventually. All in all, if you wanted a high mmr, play the game exactly like you did before the rmm, go stack, play to win. For solo rmm? Good luck with that (i really meant that, literally), the only useful tips is probably to be selfish (quoting from 09) and play high impact heroes. and oh yes, just in case some people didn't notice, you will actually need to nurture your team frequently, treat them as babies, by flaming or getting mad at someone by saying 'get bkb pls retard' will only lose you the game, you should be a nice guy and say 'they cant do shit to us if we all got bkb" etc. I know, it is ridiculous. TL;DR/Conclusion is that current RMM system is an incomplete product from Valve. A half-ass product if you may, just to satisfy some of the player groups, in which I think it actually helps to maintain the concurrent players so win/win for (almost) everyone. Judging Valve's rather lazy attitude towards dota2 after TI3, I think it can only be logically to do so, why spend that much resources on the game since it is basically finished right. Well, there is no perfect RMM system in a team orientated game to begin with anyway. | ||
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