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On February 28 2014 08:19 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 07:55 Sub40APM wrote:On February 28 2014 07:50 m4ini wrote:
I just went through a couple of articles on that page, how reliable is it as a source? well, its the english translation of an article in Rosiskaya Gazeta which is this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossiyskaya_Gazetathe original russian language can be found in the english translation or at this url: http://www.rg.ru/2014/02/24/yanukovich-site.htmlObviously 3 days ago the writer couldnt foresee that today Lavrov would declare Yankovich the president...but the irony is delicious. ONLY THE SNEAKY AMERICANS COULD SNEAK HIM AWAY...oh...hes in russia? and we are backing him? awkward. State owned Russian media not knowing about Yanukovych being in Russia only proves the point that the media is not controlled by the Kremlin, otherwise they would have known and not made a blunder. Don't really see the point you are trying to make. Media on both sides have agendas, this newspaper is just telling the public what it wants to hear so that it can sell more newspapers.
Okay, honest question: Since Putin is leading in a fairly dictator-like fashion in a lot of ways and would surely have the ability to have a great deal of influence/control on the russian media, why would he NOT do it?
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"
Some 50 armed men on Friday seized the airport of Crimea's capital Simferopol, a day after pro-Russian gunmen took over government buildings in the city, Interfax-Ukraine news agency reported, citing eyewitnesses.
The armed men took control of the airport overnight after arriving in trucks and raised Russian navy flags, the report said.
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http://www.afp.com/en/news/topstories/unidentified-armed-men-seize-crimea-airport
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On February 28 2014 09:58 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 08:58 Sent. wrote:
Russians are handling this situation very poorly. Reactions of their foreign ministry and recent army movements make me think that they are completely clueless. It surprises me because usually they seem (or at least pretend) to be well prepared and self-confident in their foreign policy. They seem to be trying to set Yanukovych up as a prophet. He can sit there in Russia and criticise the current government and proclaim how badly they are doing. Unfortunately for Russia I think even people in the east are so done with the crook that he will be unable to return to Ukraine either way and the people he embrace will be tainted. What Russia is doing with their military at the moment is mostly symbolic. I don't think Putin has enough of a deathwish to actually attack Ukraine. What is happening behind the scenes is more important. Putin is negotiating with Obama at some lower levels. What agreement they can reach is hard to say. I think Russia has a lot of ammunition in terms of economic measures, but almost no ammunition in terms of politics. They completely lack upcoming realistic candidates they can influence in Ukraine at the moment with Svoboda and to some degree Klitchko and fatherland party being nationalists. Keeping Yanukovych as their posterboy is risky, but do they have a choice at the moment if they want someone they can "cooperate" with? But yeah I think it would be advantageous for Russia to step back from Ukraine politically/militarily and let them be for the time being. When Ukraines population inevitably gets economic hardship from the reforms, they will get so much more leverage to push other candidates. They just have to be willing to let Yanukovych disappear from the political scene.
I agree its silly -- especially after the news cameras showed up to Yanukovich's and his cliques homes. But you have to look at it from another perspective, Yanukovich's home probably looks a lot like Igor Sechin's home so they share a certain cultural affiliation with each other as strongmen-pillagers. So its quite uncomfortable for a lot of members of the Russian elite who basically have the same set up as Yanukovich going to see one of their own lose power in such a staggeringly quick fashion. Even Putin took like 2-3 years to consolidate his grip.
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On February 28 2014 09:58 radiatoren wrote:
Keeping Yanukovych as their posterboy is risky, but do they have a choice at the moment if they want someone they can "cooperate" with?
Russia cannot afford cooperating with Yanukovich, he is very weak irresponsible person, he has very bad reputation in Russia.
Maybe it was stated long ago that he could be some kind of an ally, but his politics were far from friendly towards Russia. Yes, some officials from Kremlin can still name him as a president, but don't be so naive and think that any significant actions will happen for supporting of him.
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On February 28 2014 11:16 zezamer wrote:" Some 50 armed men on Friday seized the airport of Crimea's capital Simferopol, a day after pro-Russian gunmen took over government buildings in the city, Interfax-Ukraine news agency reported, citing eyewitnesses. The armed men took control of the airport overnight after arriving in trucks and raised Russian navy flags, the report said. " http://www.afp.com/en/news/topstories/unidentified-armed-men-seize-crimea-airport
Yeah, i wonder how Ukrainian governemnt will respond. Sending army in, could lead to chain reaction (as those guys can be russian soldiers -they are wearing russian army unfiroms just without distinction). On the other hand if Ukrainians decide wait them out, they may very likely take over entire Crimea and declare that they want to join Russia.
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On February 28 2014 15:29 Silvanel wrote:Yeah, i wonder how Ukrainian governemnt will respond. Sending army in, could lead to chain reaction (as those guys can be russian soldiers -they are wearing russian army unfiroms just without distinction). On the other hand if Ukrainians decide wait them out, they may very likely take over entire Crimea and declare that they want to join Russia.
Just let them sit there, Russia will eventually announce that they wont accept the referendum because it sends bad precedent for other parts of Russia just like the did in 1993, the central government will then give more more autonomy but also probably give more rights to the Turk minority.
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Isn't it a military airport of Ukraine that just have been took by those "mysterious" russians forces? I also heard that this base contain some MIG of Ukrainian fleet. Invading a military base of a country is an act of war last time I checked.
I fear the worst for Ukraine.
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Once I was talking to a girl from Sevastopol at a scientific conference. She was mentioning that she was from Sevastopol, so I said "ah that's the black sea port in the Ukraine, right?" just to make some conversation, and then it happened. She just snapped.
A long angry tirade followed that we "westerners" know nothing about the situation in Sevastopol and the Ukraine, and that she doesn't want to talk to us anymore yada yada. I hadn't even mentioned anything political, actually I hadn't said more than 2 or 3 sentences to her. I can only imagine that others had bothered her with their naïve western viewpoint before or something.
What followed was awkward silence because I didn't dare to speak to her again. Never had someone I just met been so angry at me. And she was a scientist, and scientists are usually not prone to emotional outbursts like that lol.
I am not surprised that people in Sevastopol are riled up now 
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On February 28 2014 18:27 Maenander wrote:Once I was talking to a girl from Sevastopol at a scientific conference. She was mentioning that she was from Sevastopol, so I said "ah that's the black sea port in the Ukraine, right?" just to make some conversation, and then it happened. She just snapped. A long angry tirade followed that we "westerners" know nothing about the situation in Sevastopol and the Ukraine, and that she doesn't want to talk to us anymore yada yada. I hadn't even mentioned anything political, actually I hadn't said more than 2 or 3 sentences to her. I can only imagine that others had bothered her with their naïve western viewpoint before or something. What followed was awkward silence because I didn't dare to speak to her again. Never had someone I just met been so angry at me. And she was a scientist, and scientists are usually not prone to emotional outbursts like that lol. I am not surprised that people in Sevastopol are riled up now
what do you want, Crimea was part of Russian Empire, USSR and then all of sudden they are "gift" to Ukraine and part of it
i'd be pissed too
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On February 28 2014 19:15 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 18:27 Maenander wrote:Once I was talking to a girl from Sevastopol at a scientific conference. She was mentioning that she was from Sevastopol, so I said "ah that's the black sea port in the Ukraine, right?" just to make some conversation, and then it happened. She just snapped. A long angry tirade followed that we "westerners" know nothing about the situation in Sevastopol and the Ukraine, and that she doesn't want to talk to us anymore yada yada. I hadn't even mentioned anything political, actually I hadn't said more than 2 or 3 sentences to her. I can only imagine that others had bothered her with their naïve western viewpoint before or something. What followed was awkward silence because I didn't dare to speak to her again. Never had someone I just met been so angry at me. And she was a scientist, and scientists are usually not prone to emotional outbursts like that lol. I am not surprised that people in Sevastopol are riled up now what do you want, Crimea was part of Russian Empire, USSR and then all of sudden they are "gift" to Ukraine and part of it i'd be pissed too
That's actually my point, people are extremely pissed. Even young people you wouldn't expect to be.
P.S.: It's times like this when I am thankful for the two lost world wars, at least I don't have to be pissed at our neighbours because it was all our own fault and they don't have to be pissed at us because they got what they wanted.
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On February 28 2014 19:15 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 18:27 Maenander wrote:Once I was talking to a girl from Sevastopol at a scientific conference. She was mentioning that she was from Sevastopol, so I said "ah that's the black sea port in the Ukraine, right?" just to make some conversation, and then it happened. She just snapped. A long angry tirade followed that we "westerners" know nothing about the situation in Sevastopol and the Ukraine, and that she doesn't want to talk to us anymore yada yada. I hadn't even mentioned anything political, actually I hadn't said more than 2 or 3 sentences to her. I can only imagine that others had bothered her with their naïve western viewpoint before or something. What followed was awkward silence because I didn't dare to speak to her again. Never had someone I just met been so angry at me. And she was a scientist, and scientists are usually not prone to emotional outbursts like that lol. I am not surprised that people in Sevastopol are riled up now what do you want, Crimea was part of Russian Empire, USSR and then all of sudden they are "gift" to Ukraine and part of it i'd be pissed too
It was a part of the Russian Empire for a little less than 150 years and only because it was won in a waw from the Ottoman Empire. So what is your point actually? Yes, there is Russian majority there now, but that's only because of the Russian genocide on Crimean Tatars (which is, buy the way, one of the most surprisingly silent devastations of a nation in recent history, with detah toll in at least hundreds of thousands).
Arguing land claims based on history is almost never a good idea and doesn't lead to good solutions (see: Israel-Palesine conflict). I can see how Russian people that now live in Ukraine are not happy with the current state of affairs and I will not go "no, no, evil Russia can't compromise the integrity of Ukraine", but arguing like you did is just wrong.
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Crimea roads are blocked by russian army trucks, also russian navy is blocking balaklava so no one can get in or out by a boat. Also as already mentioned russian army also took over "belbek" airport. Also there is around 50 armed men with the same uniforms and flags (russians) standing near Simferopol airport.
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On February 28 2014 19:46 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 19:15 PaleMan wrote:On February 28 2014 18:27 Maenander wrote:Once I was talking to a girl from Sevastopol at a scientific conference. She was mentioning that she was from Sevastopol, so I said "ah that's the black sea port in the Ukraine, right?" just to make some conversation, and then it happened. She just snapped. A long angry tirade followed that we "westerners" know nothing about the situation in Sevastopol and the Ukraine, and that she doesn't want to talk to us anymore yada yada. I hadn't even mentioned anything political, actually I hadn't said more than 2 or 3 sentences to her. I can only imagine that others had bothered her with their naïve western viewpoint before or something. What followed was awkward silence because I didn't dare to speak to her again. Never had someone I just met been so angry at me. And she was a scientist, and scientists are usually not prone to emotional outbursts like that lol. I am not surprised that people in Sevastopol are riled up now what do you want, Crimea was part of Russian Empire, USSR and then all of sudden they are "gift" to Ukraine and part of it i'd be pissed too It was a part of the Russian Empire for a little less than 150 years and only because it was won in a waw from the Ottoman Empire. So what is your point actually? Yes, there is Russian majority there now, but that's only because of the Russian genocide on Crimean Tatars (which is, buy the way, one of the most surprisingly silent devastations of a nation in recent history, with detah toll in at least hundreds of thousands). Arguing land claims based on history is almost never a good idea and doesn't lead to good solutions (see: Israel-Palesine conflict). I can see how Russian people that now live in Ukraine are not happy with the current state of affairs and I will not go "no, no, evil Russia can't compromise the integrity of Ukraine", but arguing like you did is just wrong.
They don't teach us history in school, instead they teach us propaganda bullshit for generations already. Result is the poster above you. Its not really his intention to insult, its a lack of knowledge, which is a combination of ignorance and bad influence. Apparently reading internet doesn't help either since russian sources are just as bad.
Cheers.
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On February 28 2014 08:31 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 07:39 AleXoundOS wrote:On January 29 2014 06:21 Cheerio wrote:
And if you want to know whether people are donating on a large scale for the needs of EuroMaidan than yes they do, I'm one of them. I'm not bringing petrol in canisters for molotovs but there were many who did, many of those for their own money. On February 28 2014 07:24 Cheerio wrote:
The public debt after Yanukovich took over (2010) encreased by 100%, and in 2012 it was already 35% of GDP. There was not way the current situation could be postponed till the next generation. Yeah, Yanukovich's politics were very far from optimal. Since you supported radical parts of Maidan, do you think the authority taken with violence was the best solution? No. Clearly the best solution was when students started gathering on Maidan for Yanukovich to understand the horrors of the situation he got Ukraine in, and to return the $12 billion his Family has stolen to the state budget, to receive the pardon from the new authorities, and to go to the monastery and pray for his sins for the rest of his days.
I ask about opposition actions, of course Yanukovich could solve situation even long before the protests.
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11:03: There is an unconfirmed Ukrainian media report that eight Russian military helicopters have arrived in Sevastopol from Russia itself.
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In the long run Ukraine will get better results from calling UN and NATO even though Russia will try and smack that down. I can't believe that Putin is naive enough to think that this is a good idea. Btw. both Russia proper and the Black Sea fleet are denying any responsibility even though the people doing this are clearly Russian and military. Guess they are worried their fleet basing rights in Sevastopol is threatened by Ukraines leaders, but their international reputation will be torn even further... Yes, Crimea is mostly non-ukrainian and yes, they are seeking even further authonomy, but it is not Russias to take back!
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On February 28 2014 19:46 opisska wrote:
...that's only because of the Russian genocide on Crimean Tatars...
It's not only because of genocide. Crimean Tatars fought at Hitler's side during WWII, what affected people's attitude to them.
Better not to call it "Russian" genocide, there was a USSR country with Stalin and other criminals. There were similar repressions to any people regardless of their nationality including Russians during all the Сталинские Репрессии.
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On February 28 2014 21:05 radiatoren wrote:
...the people doing this are clearly Russian and military.
Crimea doesn't need any additional military yet, they have their own police, their own anti-maidan activists, and their own military troops. People talking in Russian do not belong to Russia automatically.
And Crimea will solve it's problems independently with referendum that will be held at the same day as elections in Kiev.
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On February 28 2014 21:17 AleXoundOS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 21:05 radiatoren wrote:
...the people doing this are clearly Russian and military. Crimea doesn't need any additional military yet, they have their own police, their own anti-maidan activists, and their own military troops. People talking in Russian do not belong to Russia automatically. And Crimea will solve it's problems independently with referendum that will be held at the same day as elections in Kiev.
Yes and I am not saying they are russian army personel per se. Just that raising a russian flag above parliament carry some symbolism.
Just as Kunitsyn describe the men as "professionally trained"...
Source
They could be crimean cowboys for all I care, I just see the referendum as the solution to their problem instead of seizing government buildings and hoisting a foreign flag.
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EPT
