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On May 11 2014 12:10 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 12:02 semantics wrote:
No former soviet state had russia's starting conditions post fall. Just sheer size and resources alone would set it apart, let alone that the kremlin is in russia. I think the sheer size is not an advantage , im no economic expert, but from logic, isn't it easier to get smaller country up and running ? Sure the resources and all, but with it comes the corruption ...
Yes it's basically the resources. If your country is that big it's pretty much guaranteed that you are sitting on a shit ton of oil. The size makes maintaining and building infrastructure a little harder but given the fact that Russia's economy basically solely runs on resources I guess the size is a plus.
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Take a look at the Shell document I linked ( http://s05.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/country/zaf/downloads/pdf/research-reports/Ukraine-Policy-Dialogue-report.pdf ). You see on page 2 that gas production in Ukraine is projected to double until 2020 and almost reach four times of todays production in 2030.
The process of developing these gas fields for example could have been started earlier. They would not be so dependant on Russian gas now if it had been done.
Ukraine is about double the size of Germany. It's no small country. This is what Encyclopedia Britannica has to say about natural resources on Ukraine: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/612921/Ukraine/30105/Resources-and-power
You will read that Ukraine is still rich in natural resources. Though natural gas production declined from 1975 onwards the Shell document above shows what is possible with todays technology.
It's not only about having the resources you know. Many third world countries are rich in natural resources yet their government is so shitty that the regular population does not benefit from that.
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^Of note with Russia taking over Crimea don't they now hold the oil rights in that area. Same if they took over eastern ukraine.
On May 11 2014 12:10 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 12:02 semantics wrote:
No former soviet state had russia's starting conditions post fall. Just sheer size and resources alone would set it apart, let alone that the kremlin is in russia. I think the sheer size is not an advantage , im no economic expert, but from logic, isn't it easier to get smaller country up and running ? Sure the resources and all, but with it comes the corruption ...
Land comes with resources size is an advantage. Resources are the easiest thing to gather and sell to foreign markets and thus accumulate wealth quickly. All governments suffer from corruption resources or no resources, there is more than one way to receive kickbacks all it requires is a place to make money. It's not as if Russia has equal population density across itself, infrastructure only gets costly and difficult if you try bringing the same level of govt support across the whole of the nation regardless of the size of population.
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They literally couldn't make this into a bigger farce if they tried:
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
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http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/
An interesting poll on opinions in Ukraine/Russia/Crimea on the current crisis. Poll is based on face-to-face interviews.
Basically, summarizes what most of us here agree on except that 88% of Crimea is for separatism, while 4% against. I think most people can agree that Crimea was for independence, but that the results were rigged to make them look nicer.
Anybody have a translation (or understanding) of what's on the actual ballots in DPR? Like is it asking "Do you want o join Russia?" or "Do you want to declare independence?" ? Is there an option to vote "I want to stay in Ukraine"?
edit: I don't understand the polls exact methodologies for interviews, but it seems like they focused on cities "Multi-stage cluster sample stratified by Ukraine’s six regions plus ten of the largest cities". In Crimea they seemed to only interview in Simferopol, Sevastopol and Kerch which would probably cause a heavy pro-Russian bias.
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There are reports in German newspaper "Bild am Sonntag" that upto 400 U.S. mercenaries from the Academi company (former Blackwater) are being used by the Ukrainian government to fight separatists near Slowjansk. The information about this is supposed to be coming directly from the German secret service (BND) who informed German government officials on April 29th. The information is reported to be coming directly from U.S. intelligence agencies. It is still not clear who ordered the deployment of U.S. mercenaries in eastern Ukraine. BND declined to comment.
It is also mentioned in this article that U.S. intelligence has proof that Russia directly ordered its airforce to violate Ukrainian airspace.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise-400-us-soeldner-von-academi-kaempfen-gegen-separatisten-a-968745.html
I currently don't know what to think about this. It seems there are many forces wanting to escalate this conflict.
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@banaora
The American mercenary thing seems like utter BS to me. Without any evidence, I am 99% sure it's false. That's way too high a number to hide, so their should be proof of it. And why the heck would the USA or Ukraine agree to that is beyond me... Also, the language barrier would make this quite tricky, seeing that few Ukrainian soldiers speak English and obviously no US soldiers speak Ukrainian. I mean this is beyond ridiculous...
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Yeah MC no idea. I'm flabberghasted. There must be something about this otherwise it would never be reported in Spiegel or Bild am Sonntag. Both news magazines are not known to fabricate and publish these kind of lies on purpose.
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On May 11 2014 19:02 Mc wrote:
@banaora
The American mercenary thing seems like utter BS to me. Without any evidence, I am 99% sure it's false. That's way too high a number to hide, so their should be proof of it. And why the heck would the USA or Ukraine agree to that is beyond me... Also, the language barrier would make this quite tricky, seeing that few Ukrainian soldiers speak English and obviously no US soldiers speak Ukrainian. I mean this is beyond ridiculous...
They are not alleging U.S. troops but mercenaries, they don't have anything to do with U.S. government its a private U.S. company. Most of their soldiers are not even American, but South African and British. If you have the money you can buy them and send them to fight for your side.
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On May 11 2014 19:06 Banaora wrote:
Yeah MC no idea. I'm flabberghasted. There must be something about this otherwise it would never be reported in Spiegel or Bild am Sonntag. Both news magazines are not known to fabricate and publish these kind of lies on purpose.
Wait, what? Am I missing sarcasm here? Bild am Sonntag is tabloid journalism, it's the least reliable source you can find in Germany.
Since we're talking on an international forum here, this should be made clear for the non-germans.
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On May 11 2014 18:44 Mc wrote:http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/An interesting poll on opinions in Ukraine/Russia/Crimea on the current crisis. Poll is based on face-to-face interviews. Basically, summarizes what most of us here agree on except that 88% of Crimea is for separatism, while 4% against. I think most people can agree that Crimea was for independence, but that the results were rigged to make them look nicer. Anybody have a translation (or understanding) of what's on the actual ballots in DPR? Like is it asking "Do you want o join Russia?" or "Do you want to declare independence?" ? Is there an option to vote "I want to stay in Ukraine"? edit: I don't understand the polls exact methodologies for interviews, but it seems like they focused on cities "Multi-stage cluster sample stratified by Ukraine’s six regions plus ten of the largest cities". In Crimea they seemed to only interview in Simferopol, Sevastopol and Kerch which would probably cause a heavy pro-Russian bias.
I don't think most people here would have a problem with Crimea going independent if there was an honest vote for it.
They're keeping keeping the options ambiguous on purpose, I think there's only a yes or no answer.
Engineer Sergei, 33, voting in the industrial center of Mariupol, said he would answer "Yes" to the question on the ballot paper, printed in Russian and Ukrainian: "Do you support the act of state self-rule of the Donetsk People's Republic?"
"We're all for the independence of the Donetsk republic," he said. "It means leaving behind that fascist, pro-American government (in Kiev), which brought no one any good."
AUTONOMY, INDEPENDENCE, ANNEXATION
But in the same queue of voters, 54-year-old Irina, saw a "Yes" vote as endorsement of autonomy within Ukraine.
"I want Donetsk to have its own powers, some kind of autonomy, separate from Kiev. I'm not against a united Ukraine, but not under those people we did not choose, who seized power and are going to ruin the country," she said.
source
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On May 11 2014 19:06 Banaora wrote:
Yeah MC no idea. I'm flabberghasted. There must be something about this otherwise it would never be reported in Spiegel or Bild am Sonntag. Both news magazines are not known to fabricate and publish these kind of lies on purpose.
How about we stick to reality, not to sensationalist bullshit, shall we?
First of all, quoting Bild am Sonntag as reliable is couragerous, and Spiegel (which i would call reliable) did not report anything. They quoted Bild am Sonntag, that's all. They even said "according to BamS".
That's Bild. Even without speaking german, you get a pretty clear picture of what kind of paper it is - it's basically the german daily mail.
edit:
The voting, well. It's as retarded and fake as it gets. They don't even try to hide it. Going full russianstyle in votings, i hope it'll bite them.
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On May 11 2014 19:02 Mc wrote:
@banaora
The American mercenary thing seems like utter BS to me. Without any evidence, I am 99% sure it's false. That's way too high a number to hide, so their should be proof of it. And why the heck would the USA or Ukraine agree to that is beyond me... Also, the language barrier would make this quite tricky, seeing that few Ukrainian soldiers speak English and obviously no US soldiers speak Ukrainian. I mean this is beyond ridiculous...
Afaik mercenaries working for those companies come from all sorts of countries. So they would not have to be Americans, let alone US soldiers.
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^Spiegel has an atrocious foreign policy editor. I've pretty much given up reading them, although some of their writers are still good.
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US statement:
Unfortunately, we still see no Russian military movement away from the border, and today Kremlin-backed social media and news stations encouraged residents of eastern Ukraine to vote tomorrow, one even offering instructions for polling stations in Moscow. Russian state media also continue to strongly back the referenda with no mention of Putin’s call for postponement. Source.
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Reality is that this stuff was published. Would you say Bild is pulling this story out of their ass just to get attention or something? Bild is part of Axel Springer SE, Germany's biggest media publishing company and it has a strong trans-atlantic background. For me there has to be some ground for this story otherwise it would not have been published.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Not sure how much of the population supports secession, but I know that Kiev certainly didn't win any favors by sending in the military against its own people. I wouldn't be surprised if a majority supports it now.
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EPT
