EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 523
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m4ini
4215 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22669 Posts
On May 11 2014 23:59 m4ini wrote: That's a bit different from "arresting"  And that also, most likely, would end up in war. That's what i'm on about. You obviously can't let happen what's happening right now (no country could or would) - but there's still that little thing of 40k russian soldiers on your border, ready to "prevent russian genocide". Which is why the Ukraine's position is so shitty. They have only 1 real option. Its a terrible option at the best of times and Russia is waiting for a war so they can intervene. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On May 11 2014 23:58 Mc wrote: So supposedly this true...!? You can participate in the DPR vote in Moscow.... https://twitter.com/myrevolutionrus/status/465456860355887104/photo/1 http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BnPAYu4IMAAhI8Z.png BBC correspondent from Moscow: + Show Spoiler + Any confirmation? According to that article, voting in Russia requires a valid Ukranian passport. | ||
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Acertos
France852 Posts
On May 12 2014 00:48 LegalLord wrote: According to that article, voting in Russia requires a valid Ukranian passport. Seeing how the last elections in Russia took place, I don't think it matters. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:08 Saryph wrote: So are separatists from the region of Ukraine there conducting the referendum in Moscow? Or is this the Russian government holding a referendum themselves in Moscow? Russia is allowing citizens from Donbass and Donetsk who are currently in Moscow to cast an absentee vote for the referendum. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On May 12 2014 00:48 LegalLord wrote: According to that article, voting in Russia requires a valid Ukranian passport. That means alot in one of the most corrupt countries in the world, renown for their pinpoint accuracy coming to any kind of voting. You don't think it's extremely weird in the first place to have votings regarding political decisions in a foreign country? Don't take it personally, but are all russians that delusional, to think this is "legitimate"? All this does, is adding another variable that nobody can confirm, is not monitored, is easy to manipulate. People in the ukraine already can vote more than once, how often do you think can someone in moscow vote? Let me ask you this, and i'd like you to answer honestly and direct - do you actually think this is even close to a voting that could have any legitimate outcome? As in, any result other than being a farce beyond anything i personally have ever seen? | ||
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Serpest
United States603 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:06 LegalLord wrote: Fair enough, if you're planning to cry foul on Russia regardless of what it does or doesn't do, there's really nothing more to be said. What is it with this permanent Russian victim complex that pops up as soon as someone criticizes what Russia is doing? | ||
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:10 LegalLord wrote: Russia is allowing citizens from Donbass and Donetsk who are currently in Moscow to cast an absentee vote for the referendum. So you're saying that it is being supervised by the Russian government? Interesting, I would have thought even they would not do something that straightforward (or idiotic). | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:11 m4ini wrote: That means alot in one of the most corrupt countries in the world, renown for their pinpoint accuracy coming to any kind of voting. You don't think it's extremely weird in the first place to have votings regarding political decisions in a foreign country? Don't take it personally, but are all russians that delusional, to think this is "legitimate"? All this does, is adding another variable that nobody can confirm, is not monitored, is easy to manipulate. People in the ukraine already can vote more than once, how often do you think can someone in moscow vote? So essentially your point is that you don't trust Russia, and therefore you don't trust the results of a legitimate voting procedure (absentee voting)? That's fine, but it all boils down to the fact that you yourself do not trust Russia, not that there is anything inherently wrong about that procedure. By the way, I'm a US citizen and live in the US - you can dispense with the whole "brainwashed by Russian propaganda" BS that you keep spouting. I hardly watch Russian news. On May 12 2014 01:11 m4ini wrote:Let me ask you this, and i'd like you to answer honestly and direct - do you actually think this is even close to a voting that could have any legitimate outcome? As in, any result other than being a farce beyond anything i personally have ever seen? Do I think that these elections will run without any questionable procedures? No. Do I think that these elections will have a legitimate outcome? Maybe. We'll see the general public reaction after the vote, because that isn't very easy to fake. Do I think that this is a farce beyond anything you have ever seen? Look no further than the May 25 elections, which essentially have no representation for East Ukranians because any pro-Russian candidates were chased out of Kiev by mob violence. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
Sooo here's a video of the voting queue in Moscow. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:25 LegalLord wrote: So essentially your point is that you don't trust Russia, and therefore you don't trust the results of a legitimate voting procedure (absentee voting)? That's fine, but it all boils down to the fact that you yourself do not trust Russia, not that there is anything inherently wrong about that procedure. There absolutely is something utterly wrong about the procedure, namely that a country is opaquely supervising on its own soil a referendum supposed to lead to major political change in another country. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:25 LegalLord wrote: So essentially your point is that you don't trust Russia, and therefore you don't trust the results of a legitimate voting procedure (absentee voting)? That's fine, but it all boils down to the fact that you yourself do not trust Russia, not that there is anything inherently wrong about that procedure. By the way, I'm a US citizen and live in the US - you can dispense with the whole "brainwashed by Russian propaganda" BS that you keep spouting. I hardly watch Russian news. Do I think that these elections will run without any questionable procedures? No. Do I think that these elections will have a legitimate outcome? Maybe. We'll see the general public reaction after the vote, because that isn't very easy to fake. Do I think that this is a farce beyond anything you have ever seen? Look no further than the May 25 elections, which essentially have no representation for East Ukranians because any pro-Russian candidates were chased out of Kiev by mob violence. Has russia given anyone a reason to actually trust them? No. From lies about troops in crimea, to a completely rigged "referendum" in crimea, to saboteurs and provocateurs in ukraine, to lying about not backing the seperatists, lying multiple times about withdrawing troops from Ukraines borders (which they still haven't done) lying about not supporting the referendum which they are now helping with, russia has used up any trust they may have had probably for the next couple decades. There is absolutely no reason to trust anything from russia anymore, and everyone except for the russians knows this. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:34 kwizach wrote: There absolutely is something utterly wrong about the procedure, namely that a country is opaquely supervising on its own soil a referendum supposed to lead to major political change in another country. Logistically, it would be just about impossible for the current Donetsk/Donbass government to account for absentee voting, and it isn't exactly fair to prohibit voting just because people left the area (possibly because they didn't want to risk violence?). If you have a better solution to that issue, do share. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:25 LegalLord wrote: So essentially your point is that you don't trust Russia, and therefore you don't trust the results of a legitimate voting procedure (absentee voting)? That's fine, but it all boils down to the fact that you yourself do not trust Russia, not that there is anything inherently wrong about that procedure. By the way, I'm a US citizen and live in the US - you can dispense with the whole "brainwashed by Russian propaganda" BS that you keep spouting. I hardly watch Russian news. Do I think that these elections will run without any questionable procedures? No. Do I think that these elections will have a legitimate outcome? Maybe. We'll see the general public reaction after the vote, because that isn't very easy to fake. Do I think that this is a farce beyond anything you have ever seen? Look no further than the May 25 elections, which essentially have no representation for East Ukranians because any pro-Russian candidates were chased out of Kiev by mob violence. Uhhhh, there are plenty of pro-Russian candidates remaining in Ukraine. Just because Yanukovych fled, doesn't mean that all pro-Russian politicians have fled. The party of regions still exists and still holds a lot of seats in parliament (I think about 25% if you read wiki). How about a faction leader of the party of regions Oleksandr Yefremov? He is clearly pro-Russian and clearly still in Ukraine ( link) | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:38 LegalLord wrote: Logistically, it would be just about impossible for the current Donetsk/Donbass government to account for absentee voting, and it isn't exactly fair to prohibit voting just because people left the area (possibly because they didn't want to risk violence?). If you have a better solution to that issue, do share. You mean apart from not holding an referendum that has no legal value whatsoever? It's their problem if there are "logistical problems" - that doesn't change the fact that it's ludicrous to have another country overview on its own soil such a voting procedure. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On May 12 2014 01:25 LegalLord wrote: So essentially your point is that you don't trust Russia, and therefore you don't trust the results of a legitimate voting procedure (absentee voting)? That's fine, but it all boils down to the fact that you yourself do not trust Russia, not that there is anything inherently wrong about that procedure. I tend to not trust any "country". Especially not corrupt ones, but that does not exclude western or even my country, if that puts your mind at ease. But russia in this case is a special one, since they give alot of reasons to not trust them at the moment. Openly. By the way, I'm a US citizen and live in the US - you can dispense with the whole "brainwashed by Russian propaganda" BS that you keep spouting. I hardly watch Russian news. I don't recall writing anything about propaganda in my last posting. But again, if it puts your mind at ease, if it's not brainwashed, then you have extremely weird opinions on how "legitimate" looks like. Do I think that these elections will run without any questionable procedures? No. Do I think that these elections will have a legitimate outcome? Maybe. We'll see the general public reaction after the vote, because that isn't very easy to fake. Do I think that this is a farce beyond anything you have ever seen? Look no further than the May 25 elections, which essentially have no representation for East Ukranians because any pro-Russian candidates were chased out of Kiev by mob violence. Wtf, we'll judge "by the reactions of the general public" if the voting is legitimate? You're kidding, right? First of all, we don't get to see those reactions first handed, we get to see some selected videos of three different "parties" - as does the rest of the world. Thats why you have a proper voting in the first place. Not to mention that you completely disregard already that A pre-filled ballots were found, B videos, pictures and interviews already airing about people voting more than once etc - and yet, you still want to give ANY credit to the outcome? What a joke, sorry. If you have a better solution to that issue, do share. How about not rushing the vote for whatever reason? You know, have a proper, planned voting? | ||
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