On May 02 2014 06:21 Ghanburighan wrote: Note: unverified. Could be home-made.
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*** A poll including questions about the Ukraine crisis in Germany: Link to the Tagesschau (slide 14 onwards)
There is no problem with legal Nazi marches. That is a part of free speech, letting people say something if you don't agree with it. I do not agree with the Nazis. I still think they should be allowed to demonstrate. Hopefully a lot more reasonable people will march against whatever the nazis are marching for, and hopefully the whole thing is organized well enough that the two groops are kept apart.
This does not have anything to do with Ukraine either.
The point Ghanburighan probably wanted to make was that the Russian narrative keeps talking about how the Ukraine government is now made up of neo-nazi's and they are evil/should be taken down while they are allowed to march in Moscow, combined with Russia's often forbidding various protests/marches.
There is no problem with legal Nazi marches. That is a part of free speech, letting people say something if you don't agree with it. I do not agree with the Nazis. I still think they should be allowed to demonstrate. Hopefully a lot more reasonable people will march against whatever the nazis are marching for, and hopefully the whole thing is organized well enough that the two groops are kept apart.
This does not have anything to do with Ukraine either.
As far as I am concerned, free speech ends where the hate speech starts.
I think that it has do with Ukraine, because according to Kremlin, Kiev government is overrun by bloodthirsty fascists and nazis. However, judging from the picture, it seems that Kremlin tolerates nazis afterall.
There is no problem with legal Nazi marches. That is a part of free speech, letting people say something if you don't agree with it. I do not agree with the Nazis. I still think they should be allowed to demonstrate. Hopefully a lot more reasonable people will march against whatever the nazis are marching for, and hopefully the whole thing is organized well enough that the two groops are kept apart.
This does not have anything to do with Ukraine either.
The main evidence for `fascists and neo-nazis are in power in Kyiv' comes from photos of similar demonstrations in the Ukraine. It's useful to point out that such events are much more prevalent in Russia itself.
Unless boots are not standard issue in Russian army, I say it is a fake.
Yeah the sneakers make it a bit suspect :p
:D the gun in sneakers doesn't have the flag though and doesn't have the gun.
Guns wear sneakers? They're evolving :D Kill it before it lays eggs!
Also, it was pointed out in the replies to that tweet that the camo is not Russian lol, which is memory serves me correctly, is indeed true. Literally random camo from who knows where.
You can get flag patches like that in practically any country. I still have 1 or 2 USA ones I think.
There is no problem with legal Nazi marches. That is a part of free speech, letting people say something if you don't agree with it. I do not agree with the Nazis. I still think they should be allowed to demonstrate. Hopefully a lot more reasonable people will march against whatever the nazis are marching for, and hopefully the whole thing is organized well enough that the two groops are kept apart.
This does not have anything to do with Ukraine either.
As far as I am concerned, free speech ends where the hate speech starts.
I think that it has do with Ukraine, because according to Kremlin, Kiev government is overrun by bloodthirsty fascists and nazis. However, judging from the picture, it seems that Kremlin tolerates nazis afterall.
The difference is between propaganda and action. Not at all an uncommon thing in many countries. The difference also is these Russian NS Party guys aren't running Russian government in any way and are at best a very minuscule niche in Russian society. As far as I'm aware, these extreme far-right wing guys are extremely unpopular, with their only "good" attribute to offer being nationalism.
Unless boots are not standard issue in Russian army, I say it is a fake.
Yeah the sneakers make it a bit suspect :p
:D the gun in sneakers doesn't have the flag though and doesn't have the gun.
Guns wear sneakers? They're evolving :D Kill it before it lays eggs!
Also, it was pointed out in the replies to that tweet that the camo is not Russian lol, which is memory serves me correctly, is indeed true. Literally random camo from who knows where.
You can get flag patches like that in practically any country. I still have 1 or 2 USA ones I think.
There is no problem with legal Nazi marches. That is a part of free speech, letting people say something if you don't agree with it. I do not agree with the Nazis. I still think they should be allowed to demonstrate. Hopefully a lot more reasonable people will march against whatever the nazis are marching for, and hopefully the whole thing is organized well enough that the two groops are kept apart.
This does not have anything to do with Ukraine either.
As far as I am concerned, free speech ends where the hate speech starts.
I think that it has do with Ukraine, because according to Kremlin, Kiev government is overrun by bloodthirsty fascists and nazis. However, judging from the picture, it seems that Kremlin tolerates nazis afterall.
The difference is between propaganda and action. Not at all an uncommon thing in many countries. The difference also is these Russian NS Party guys aren't running Russian government in any way and are at best a very minuscule niche in Russian society. As far as I'm aware, these extreme far-right wing guys are extremely unpopular, with their only "good" attribute to offer being nationalism.
Claiming that the 'nazis' are running the Kiev government is extremely naive. Yeah, some of the protesters wore nazi signs, some of them adhere to nazi beliefs. None of that has had an impact on the current government, The ideology of the Ukrainian government is hardly something to be concerned about, the ideology of the russian government on the other hand is worrying.
Unless boots are not standard issue in Russian army, I say it is a fake.
Yeah the sneakers make it a bit suspect :p
:D the gun in sneakers doesn't have the flag though and doesn't have the gun.
Guns wear sneakers? They're evolving :D Kill it before it lays eggs!
Also, it was pointed out in the replies to that tweet that the camo is not Russian lol, which is memory serves me correctly, is indeed true. Literally random camo from who knows where.
You can get flag patches like that in practically any country. I still have 1 or 2 USA ones I think.
There is no problem with legal Nazi marches. That is a part of free speech, letting people say something if you don't agree with it. I do not agree with the Nazis. I still think they should be allowed to demonstrate. Hopefully a lot more reasonable people will march against whatever the nazis are marching for, and hopefully the whole thing is organized well enough that the two groops are kept apart.
This does not have anything to do with Ukraine either.
As far as I am concerned, free speech ends where the hate speech starts.
I think that it has do with Ukraine, because according to Kremlin, Kiev government is overrun by bloodthirsty fascists and nazis. However, judging from the picture, it seems that Kremlin tolerates nazis afterall.
The difference is between propaganda and action. Not at all an uncommon thing in many countries. The difference also is these Russian NS Party guys aren't running Russian government in any way and are at best a very minuscule niche in Russian society. As far as I'm aware, these extreme far-right wing guys are extremely unpopular, with their only "good" attribute to offer being nationalism.
Claiming that the 'nazis' are running the Kiev government is extremely naive. Yeah, some of the protesters wore nazi signs, some of them adhere to nazi beliefs. None of that has had an impact on the current government, The ideology of the Ukrainian government is hardly something to be concerned about, the ideology of the russian government on the other hand is worrying.
It's not naive. It's propaganda. It's like how John Kerry started calling everyone terrorists just a couple weeks ago lol. I agree, revaunchism and related politically/economically/military-assertive ideals are worrisome, especially when it's combined with conflicting interests of powers. In the case of Ukraine, its opponent in this regard is Russia. It's long-been established that Ukraine is the rope in a tug-of-war between Russian interests and US interests, particularly in the scope of the century-old ideology of opposing Russia.
However, aside from the Ukrainian crisis where Russian action thus far has been reserved to the extremely, extremely special circumstances of Russian revanchism in regards to the annexation of Crimea for reasons that have been discussed to death, I'm not too worried about Russian government ideology beyond that. The only thing to really worry about at this time is the clever bind the Russian government placed. Insurgents arose in eastern Ukraine, and the Russians saw an opportunity to use these guys as a trap to justify military action. The government in Kiev is wise enough not to step into the trap, so we won't be seeing military conflict, which erases a lot of my own concerns. In any case, there's other things and places that are significantly more worrisome when it comes to international politics if we're to speak relatively, but I won't digress further.
Please don't comprehend me to be understating the gravity of the situation. I'm certainly not. I'm beyond worried about the situation itself and the insurgents taking over a few of the eastern provinces, but I'm not so worried about the Russian government itself. If it didn't have its aloof, neutral, "dgaf" relations with the insurgents (who are incessantly begging them for help), I would be significantly more worried about their ideology/actions.
Apparently something is going on, not sure what though. Apparently they might be cutting cell towers/internet to the city. Also pro-Russian separatists claim they've shot down a Ukrainian helicopter.
Yep, looks like they plan on storming the city. Yesterday all the international journalists left Slovyansk, which is pretty much a confirmation that shit is about to go down, same thing happened in Bagdad and Belgrade.
Separatists are saying that they shot down two helicopters so far, one which was able to make emergency landing in the field.
Also Kramatorsk is being surrounded by troops as well.
Shit's about to go down now that the military's moving in to clamp down on the separatists. Better hope that this won't turn into a Grozny for Ukraine...
Either way, whether Russia decides to "intervene" in the next 48 hours will make or break the east.
*** Regarding the actual attack, there's conflicting reports:
The people closer to power reporting that an anti-terrorism operation is under way.
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Ukraine’s interim prime minister said on Thursday his country was entering its “most dangerous 10 days” since independence in 1991 and was struggling to counter pro-Russian separatists on the verge of taking over the industrialised eastern heartland. Arseniy Yatseniuk, in an interview with the Financial Times, accused Moscow of plotting to foment more clashes during the May Day holidays when nostalgia for Soviet victories and achievements tends to peak.
Pro-Russians strengthened their grip on the east of Ukraine on Thursday, storming the regional prosecutor’s office in the town of Donetsk driving the police out and ransacking the building. The Kiev authorities fear the secessionists will put on a bigger show of strength on May 9, the commemoration of the Soviet Union’s victory over Nazi Germany.
On May 11, pro-Russian separatists who have seized government buildings in about a dozen cities in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, plan to hold a referendum on independence and later unification with Russia.
“They will play on this Soviet-style legacy and try to provoke and artificially make clashes,” Mr Yatseniuk said. “They … usually have 10 to 20 well-trained Russian agents who storm the buildings, then grab indigenous protesters, disappear and move to another city.”
German chancellor Angela Merkel telephoned Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, in the latest western attempt to dissuade Moscow from stoking the crisis. Ms Merkel will hold talks on the Ukrainian crisis with President Barack Obama in Washington on Friday.
Mr Putin said Ukraine’s government should defuse the political crisis by withdrawing its troops from southeastern regions and launching a broad constitutional reform process. He was quoted by the Kremlin as telling Ms Merkel that those steps were “the most important thing now” to resolve the crisis.
Ukraine’s interim authorities introduced conscription on Thursday in the wake of launching an operation against the rebels last week, which has made little apparent progress.
Speaking in Kiev, Mr Yatseniuk said: “It’s clear to me, President Putin has no limits. Putin’s idea is to restore the might of the former Soviet Union and become emperor of a new-style Soviet empire.” The West, he added, “got this message … too late though … after the Crimea invasion.”
He described the risk of broader Russian military intervention as high and described Ukraine’s central government as falling into “a trap”.
“On the one hand, the majority of Ukrainians are pressing on the acting president and security service to conduct the antiterrorist operation and to bring these terrorists to justice. On the other hand, if you start this kind of very tough operation, you will definitely have civilian casualties. And this is the perfect excuse for President Putin to say look, these ultranationalists kill Russian-speaking people. We need to protect them,” he said.
“The intel we got is very clear,” he said. “Russia is entirely ready to cross the border as they did in Crimea.”
Mr Yatseniuk insisted Kiev had not yet lost all authority over the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, but said pro-Russians had taken control of “up to 10” cities. He said the central government still intended to hold a presidential election on May 25, and held out the prospect of a referendum on greater regional autonomy and Russian language rights.
Mr Yatseniuk outlined the daunting challenges facing him and the interim administration: “a massive Russian troop presence on the border, well-trained Russian spies in Donetsk, Lugansk and even southern Ukraine, along with huge economic turmoil and a still very corrupt system [of government]. You can’t eradicate [this] in two weeks.”
Adding to its potential problems, the International Monetary Fund said it would be forced to rethink the scale of its $17bn bailout for Ukraine were Kiev to lose control of the east. Source.
Shit's about to go down now that the military's moving in to clamp down on the separatists. Better hope that this won't turn into a Grozny for Ukraine...
Either way, whether Russia decides to "intervene" in the next 48 hours will make or break the east.
Well, I look like an idiot. I just stated several hours ago how there is no way the Ukrainian government would fall into this trap! And here they are!
The Russians have given everyone enough migraines about how they'll intervene if the government in Kiev does what they're doing right now. Bleh
According to their radio (channel link here), the separatists are requesting that all citizens in Slavyansk meet in the town hall to record (I think its a video; ugh, hate translations on the fly) a personal video-petition to Putin to demand intervention from Russia.
On May 02 2014 15:22 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Well, I look like an idiot. I just stated several hours ago how there is no way the Ukrainian government would fall into this trap! And here they are!
The Russians have given everyone enough migraines about how they'll intervene if the government in Kiev does what they're doing right now. Bleh
It goes both ways.
You need to remember that the Kremlin is fine with all this chaos in Ukraine considering Crimea is already in the Russian fold; intervening elsewhere in Ukraine for a bunch of upstarts is not what they want.
The Ukrainian government might possibly get support from the West if there is a clear and present danger that is not speculation; images of Russian tanks rolling onto Ukrainian soil is going to ruffle some feathers in NATO; especially Poland and the Baltics (even if EU members like Germany will staunchly disagree and continue to do nothing).
On the other hand, Putin is put into a Russian roulette game where both pistols are loaded; intervene and escalate the crapstorm and spark a limited conflict that could potentially spiral out of control, or not intervene and take crap for it anyway. At that point, it will boil down to whichever poison he deems is the lesser of the two evils.
According to the separatist soldier, who brought the wounded pilot to town, separatists shot down the helicopter, which forced to make an emergency landing in the field. Separatists went to the spot where helicopter landed and were observing from woods, as another Ukrainian helicopter landed next to the damaged one. Soldiers came out, took the pilots handgun and left without taking the wounded pilot. After that separatists took the wounded pilot to their car and drove to the city. According the doctor he has a gunshot wound in a hip area, that damaged a major blood vessel and fractured part of the bone, he urgently needs an operation.
Unless boots are not standard issue in Russian army, I say it is a fake.
In the army, it is completely normal not to wear boots if you are somewhat injured, like twisted ankle or just minor infections, and stuff like that, but you still can work.
On May 02 2014 19:14 mdb wrote: This non stop talking about nazis and faschists is getting ridiculous.
Exactly, it's as if people in this thread thing Putin calling the maideners nazis automatically is the key to invalidating Russia's actions. There's no different between this and Kerry calling all the maideners peaceful protesters and all the anti-maideners terrorists, standard propaganda.
EPT
It's like how John Kerry started calling everyone terrorists just a couple weeks ago lol. I agree, revaunchism and related politically/economically/military-assertive ideals are worrisome, especially when it's combined with conflicting interests of powers. In the case of Ukraine, its opponent in this regard is Russia. It's long-been established that Ukraine is the rope in a tug-of-war between Russian interests and US interests, particularly in the scope of the century-old ideology of opposing Russia. ![[image loading]](http://rt.com/files/news/26/06/40/00/000_par7866596.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://rt.com/files/news/26/06/40/00/000_par7866574.jpg)
