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Ukraine Crisis - Page 412

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
April 11 2014 16:33 GMT
#8221
No matter how much you disagree with what Russia is doing at the moment, Bandera really was a pretty big asshole, no need to downplay that.
Roman666
Profile Joined April 2012
Poland1440 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-11 16:49:00
April 11 2014 16:43 GMT
#8222
Ah, that was not my intent, not at all. He was an asshole, I agree. Just that his name always cames up as a synonym to an ultimate Ukrainian nazi/fascist, when there were even worse than him. I guess this is a result of him having statues all over western Ukraine.
Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
April 11 2014 18:23 GMT
#8223
Lol just read on Polish wikipedia that in 2009 there was a Ukrainian bicycle ride in Bandera's name - Critical Mass with nationalists.. interesting :p
5hh.gg
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-11 18:45:19
April 11 2014 18:44 GMT
#8224
The Russian Foreign Ministry has issued an official warning to all citizens who travel abroad, saying they might be detained and extradited to the US for a biased trial on inflated charges.

Russian diplomats say that US justice is biased against Russians and processes usually result in lengthy prison sentences.


http://rt.com/politics/russia-sanctions-foreign-travel-840/

The article made two examples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout
Vikotor Yaroshenko, russian wiki article
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5080 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-11 18:49:29
April 11 2014 18:48 GMT
#8225
On April 11 2014 19:21 Geisterkarle wrote:
I like how you bring up, that Ukraine wants to be independent, when Euromaiden started because Ukraine wanted to be independent. Ukraine/Yanukovich said "no" to the EU and then shit happened!

Also - because you are "discussing" it - there is an old saying:
"If elections could change something, they would be banned!"

Just for understanding: You can change things with your vote! ... Sadly the result of elections will not end that your vote really would count! And I'm not talking about rigged elections. But most parties are all the same! Seriously, in over 50 years of Germany after WWII it didn't matter shit which of our big two parties were in the lead and who they cooperated with. In the big picture nothing changed in the government!
Also people are not interested in change! I was "working" for a small party and was on the streets to gather votes. And there are people coming around telling us, that we are stupid and no nothing about politics and he/she will vote for "their" party again - like they did for the last 30+ years. They don't read election programs or are interested what a party is or wants doing. They go "lalala" in their head for the "crunch time" before the election and just vote for the party they always voted.
With this in mind, every election is plain stupid! We could save money if we would stop bothering with elections. But oh yeah, we are not democratic anymore with that ...


Yes, it is stupid to say that people are willfully ignorant and mindlessly reactionary just because they don't agree with your political opinions... if you can't convince people to vote for you it's your problem, not theirs.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-11 23:35:39
April 11 2014 23:35 GMT
#8226
Russian media caught lying, again.

Pro-Russian protester and Maidan mercenary in one skin: Russian propaganda makes epic blooper (video)

In its report Russia's television channel NTV showed a man and stated he was a citizen of Germany and a 'Euromaidan's mercenary'. According to the journalists, some days ago this man, Andrey Petkov, who left Ukraine in1992, was wounded in the town of Mykolaiv. The resident of Germany had 500,000 euro for Euromaidan and was resposible for training the group of 50 so that they could participate in actions of violence, NTV said.

Meanwhile, TV channel Rossiya reported the story of the same man, Andrey Petkov, but presented him as … 'a victim of radicals' who had brain concussion, burns and a fracture. On April 7, Mr Petkov was taking part in a peaceful action in Mykolaiv expressing his protest against the new authorities, but radicals 'touched off a real massacre', Rossiya stressed.
It is noteworthy that Russian propagandists did not even have the trouble to change the name of the pro-Russian 'EuroMaidan protesters'. Russian TV channels are notorious for hiring actors or even come-and-go people to film fake news stories and reports.


http://belsat.eu/en/wiadomosci/a,19130,prorussian-protester-and-maidan-mercenary-in-one-skin-russian-propaganda-makes-epic-blooper-video.html

Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-12 00:19:31
April 12 2014 00:19 GMT
#8227
On April 12 2014 08:35 Cheerio wrote:
Russian media caught lying, again.

Show nested quote +
Pro-Russian protester and Maidan mercenary in one skin: Russian propaganda makes epic blooper (video)

In its report Russia's television channel NTV showed a man and stated he was a citizen of Germany and a 'Euromaidan's mercenary'. According to the journalists, some days ago this man, Andrey Petkov, who left Ukraine in1992, was wounded in the town of Mykolaiv. The resident of Germany had 500,000 euro for Euromaidan and was resposible for training the group of 50 so that they could participate in actions of violence, NTV said.

Meanwhile, TV channel Rossiya reported the story of the same man, Andrey Petkov, but presented him as … 'a victim of radicals' who had brain concussion, burns and a fracture. On April 7, Mr Petkov was taking part in a peaceful action in Mykolaiv expressing his protest against the new authorities, but radicals 'touched off a real massacre', Rossiya stressed.
It is noteworthy that Russian propagandists did not even have the trouble to change the name of the pro-Russian 'EuroMaidan protesters'. Russian TV channels are notorious for hiring actors or even come-and-go people to film fake news stories and reports.


http://belsat.eu/en/wiadomosci/a,19130,prorussian-protester-and-maidan-mercenary-in-one-skin-russian-propaganda-makes-epic-blooper-video.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_hwHiLiOvY


What's confusing more than anything is how state-mandated news (at least state-run when it comes to extremely pivotal Russian political matters like the situation regarding Crimea and Ukraine) can be so inconsistent. haha
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
April 12 2014 00:34 GMT
#8228
On April 12 2014 09:19 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 08:35 Cheerio wrote:
Russian media caught lying, again.

Pro-Russian protester and Maidan mercenary in one skin: Russian propaganda makes epic blooper (video)

In its report Russia's television channel NTV showed a man and stated he was a citizen of Germany and a 'Euromaidan's mercenary'. According to the journalists, some days ago this man, Andrey Petkov, who left Ukraine in1992, was wounded in the town of Mykolaiv. The resident of Germany had 500,000 euro for Euromaidan and was resposible for training the group of 50 so that they could participate in actions of violence, NTV said.

Meanwhile, TV channel Rossiya reported the story of the same man, Andrey Petkov, but presented him as … 'a victim of radicals' who had brain concussion, burns and a fracture. On April 7, Mr Petkov was taking part in a peaceful action in Mykolaiv expressing his protest against the new authorities, but radicals 'touched off a real massacre', Rossiya stressed.
It is noteworthy that Russian propagandists did not even have the trouble to change the name of the pro-Russian 'EuroMaidan protesters'. Russian TV channels are notorious for hiring actors or even come-and-go people to film fake news stories and reports.


http://belsat.eu/en/wiadomosci/a,19130,prorussian-protester-and-maidan-mercenary-in-one-skin-russian-propaganda-makes-epic-blooper-video.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_hwHiLiOvY


What's confusing more than anything is how state-mandated news (at least state-run when it comes to extremely pivotal Russian political matters like the situation regarding Crimea and Ukraine) can be so inconsistent. haha


This kind of work is usually reserved for the party faithful at above market prices. Basically a form of payout to loyal friends, Competence is not at the top of the list of requirements.
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-12 00:42:56
April 12 2014 00:38 GMT
#8229
On April 12 2014 09:19 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 08:35 Cheerio wrote:
Russian media caught lying, again.

Pro-Russian protester and Maidan mercenary in one skin: Russian propaganda makes epic blooper (video)

In its report Russia's television channel NTV showed a man and stated he was a citizen of Germany and a 'Euromaidan's mercenary'. According to the journalists, some days ago this man, Andrey Petkov, who left Ukraine in1992, was wounded in the town of Mykolaiv. The resident of Germany had 500,000 euro for Euromaidan and was resposible for training the group of 50 so that they could participate in actions of violence, NTV said.

Meanwhile, TV channel Rossiya reported the story of the same man, Andrey Petkov, but presented him as … 'a victim of radicals' who had brain concussion, burns and a fracture. On April 7, Mr Petkov was taking part in a peaceful action in Mykolaiv expressing his protest against the new authorities, but radicals 'touched off a real massacre', Rossiya stressed.
It is noteworthy that Russian propagandists did not even have the trouble to change the name of the pro-Russian 'EuroMaidan protesters'. Russian TV channels are notorious for hiring actors or even come-and-go people to film fake news stories and reports.


http://belsat.eu/en/wiadomosci/a,19130,prorussian-protester-and-maidan-mercenary-in-one-skin-russian-propaganda-makes-epic-blooper-video.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_hwHiLiOvY


What's confusing more than anything is how state-mandated news (at least state-run when it comes to extremely pivotal Russian political matters like the situation regarding Crimea and Ukraine) can be so inconsistent. haha

I think they are very much consistent: Russia = good, Ukraine or West = bad. No need to strain the viewer's brains with ambivalences. And if the story does not meet the required criteria, it can always be modified a bit. It's for the good cause of fighting against the tyrany of evil West so that's ok.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 12 2014 08:10 GMT
#8230
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-12 09:52:29
April 12 2014 09:51 GMT
#8231
On April 12 2014 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/454739087887695872

Someone responded to her tweet w/ this video:


There is genuine support for Russian annexation. Obviously the movement is being influenced by Russian propaganda, FSB, and Russian 'tourists', but there is also significant local support.

The population of the city's metropolitan area is 2 million so I'll leave you to judge how significant such a large crowd is. Also, this was posted over a MONTH ago- I'm just trying to make the point that it's not a clear cut Russian movement. Just a Russian sponsored movement
5hh.gg
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 12 2014 10:08 GMT
#8232
On April 12 2014 18:51 Mc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/454739087887695872

Someone responded to her tweet w/ this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCYBtJ94kXc

There is genuine support for Russian annexation. Obviously the movement is being influenced by Russian propaganda, FSB, and Russian 'tourists', but there is also significant local support.

The population of the city's metropolitan area is 2 million so I'll leave you to judge how significant such a large crowd is. Also, this was posted over a MONTH ago- I'm just trying to make the point that it's not a clear cut Russian movement. Just a Russian sponsored movement


I remember that demonstration, it had nothing to do with annexation. Of course Donetsk was Pro-Russia, it's strongly Russian speaking, with close ties to the Russian economy. That doesn't mean that there's even that much support for the guys with guns squatting in Donetsk admin buildings today, though.

On the other hand, Russia managed to organize roughly that kind of demonstration in Estonia today (which has less people than Donetsk, the city ). I'd like to see the person arguing that Estonia wants to be annexed by Russia.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
sgtnoobkilla
Profile Joined July 2012
Australia249 Posts
April 12 2014 12:47 GMT
#8233
Putin wants talks with Europe on Ukraine gas debt
(Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin has told European leaders a dispute over Ukraine's gas debt to Russia could affect supplies of Russian gas to Europe and proposed urgent discussions on the matter, his spokesman said on Thursday.

The remarks were the strongest sign yet that Russia could curtail supplies of gas to Ukraine, which could increase tension between Moscow and Kiev and aggravate the worst crisis in East-West ties since the Cold War.

"The situation is urgent," Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said after Putin sent a letter expressing deep concern about Ukraine's $2.2 billion (1.3 billion pounds) gas debt and warning of a possible impact on the transit of Russian gas to the European Union.

.....

Russia has nearly doubled the price it charges Ukraine for gas since the ouster in February of President Viktor Yanukovich, who had pleased Putin by spurning landmark trade and political deals with the EU in favour of closer Russia ties.

.....

Gazprom has warned it could demand advance payments from Kiev for gas and deliver only what is paid for. Putin said on Wednesday that the company should hold off on that measure for the time being but suggested he wanted talks with the EU.

Source

In other words, what the Kremlin's saying is "bugger off from Ukraine and we'll keep sending you cheap gas or you'll be getting no more from us!".

And on a sadder unrelated side note, a European Federation will never happen if they can get stymied by blackmail like this...

On April 12 2014 19:08 Ghanburighan wrote:
On the other hand, Russia managed to organize roughly that kind of demonstration in Estonia today (which has less people than Donetsk, the city ). I'd like to see the person arguing that Estonia wants to be annexed by Russia.

But Russian civilians are being [Insert verb; best if you use one that has something to do with Nazis] in Estonia!

Comrade Putin and his not-from-Russia-at-all-despite-using-latest-Russian-equipment self-defence units must intervene to save his dear citizens in Estonia!
Don't play with your food unless it plays with you first.
Saryph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1955 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-12 13:26:06
April 12 2014 13:15 GMT
#8234
Found this amusing:



(Picture comes from THIS video, of the capture of the police headquarters in Slovyansk.)

From a New York Times article last month about Crimea:

[image loading]

The caption from the article:
Russian forces arresting Ukrainian Army officers in Simferopol, Crimea, on Tuesday. The United States and European nations have strongly opposed the Russian takeover of Crimea from Ukraine. Credit Alisa Borovikova/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Source


Edit: The scope on the gun has been swapped out, but is that the same guy? Or is the uniform just so similar that I am confused?
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22586 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-12 13:27:47
April 12 2014 13:27 GMT
#8235
On April 12 2014 22:15 Saryph wrote:
Found this amusing:

https://twitter.com/gerrydogma/status/454953627225174017

(Picture comes from THIS video, of the capture of the police headquarters in Slovyansk.)

From a New York Times article last month about Crimea:

Show nested quote +
The caption from the article:
Russian forces arresting Ukrainian Army officers in Simferopol, Crimea, on Tuesday. The United States and European nations have strongly opposed the Russian takeover of Crimea from Ukraine. Credit Alisa Borovikova/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Source


Edit: The scope on the gun has been swapped out, but is that the same guy? Or is the uniform just so similar that I am confused?

Average posture and wearing a balaclava. No there is no way to tell if its the same guy from those pictures.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Saryph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1955 Posts
April 12 2014 13:41 GMT
#8236
On April 12 2014 22:27 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 22:15 Saryph wrote:
Found this amusing:

https://twitter.com/gerrydogma/status/454953627225174017

(Picture comes from THIS video, of the capture of the police headquarters in Slovyansk.)

From a New York Times article last month about Crimea:

The caption from the article:
Russian forces arresting Ukrainian Army officers in Simferopol, Crimea, on Tuesday. The United States and European nations have strongly opposed the Russian takeover of Crimea from Ukraine. Credit Alisa Borovikova/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Source


Edit: The scope on the gun has been swapped out, but is that the same guy? Or is the uniform just so similar that I am confused?

Average posture and wearing a balaclava. No there is no way to tell if its the same guy from those pictures.


So just same uniform and same weapon? In two different cities, but with one listed as a Russian solider, the other as a pro-Russian concerned citizen?
Roman666
Profile Joined April 2012
Poland1440 Posts
April 12 2014 13:57 GMT
#8237
On April 12 2014 22:41 Saryph wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 22:27 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 12 2014 22:15 Saryph wrote:
Found this amusing:

https://twitter.com/gerrydogma/status/454953627225174017

(Picture comes from THIS video, of the capture of the police headquarters in Slovyansk.)

From a New York Times article last month about Crimea:

The caption from the article:
Russian forces arresting Ukrainian Army officers in Simferopol, Crimea, on Tuesday. The United States and European nations have strongly opposed the Russian takeover of Crimea from Ukraine. Credit Alisa Borovikova/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Source


Edit: The scope on the gun has been swapped out, but is that the same guy? Or is the uniform just so similar that I am confused?

Average posture and wearing a balaclava. No there is no way to tell if its the same guy from those pictures.


So just same uniform and same weapon? In two different cities, but with one listed as a Russian solider, the other as a pro-Russian concerned citizen?

This must be another guy, he probably bought the uniform and gun in the kiosk around the corner, but they have run out of scopes. /s
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22586 Posts
April 12 2014 14:38 GMT
#8238
On April 12 2014 22:41 Saryph wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 22:27 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 12 2014 22:15 Saryph wrote:
Found this amusing:

https://twitter.com/gerrydogma/status/454953627225174017

(Picture comes from THIS video, of the capture of the police headquarters in Slovyansk.)

From a New York Times article last month about Crimea:

The caption from the article:
Russian forces arresting Ukrainian Army officers in Simferopol, Crimea, on Tuesday. The United States and European nations have strongly opposed the Russian takeover of Crimea from Ukraine. Credit Alisa Borovikova/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Source


Edit: The scope on the gun has been swapped out, but is that the same guy? Or is the uniform just so similar that I am confused?

Average posture and wearing a balaclava. No there is no way to tell if its the same guy from those pictures.


So just same uniform and same weapon? In two different cities, but with one listed as a Russian solider, the other as a pro-Russian concerned citizen?

Anyone not stuck with there head in the sand can see both are Russian soldiers so yes its just the same standard issue uniform and standard issue weapon.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Saryph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1955 Posts
April 12 2014 15:17 GMT
#8239
On April 12 2014 23:38 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 22:41 Saryph wrote:
On April 12 2014 22:27 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 12 2014 22:15 Saryph wrote:
Found this amusing:

https://twitter.com/gerrydogma/status/454953627225174017

(Picture comes from THIS video, of the capture of the police headquarters in Slovyansk.)

From a New York Times article last month about Crimea:

The caption from the article:
Russian forces arresting Ukrainian Army officers in Simferopol, Crimea, on Tuesday. The United States and European nations have strongly opposed the Russian takeover of Crimea from Ukraine. Credit Alisa Borovikova/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Source


Edit: The scope on the gun has been swapped out, but is that the same guy? Or is the uniform just so similar that I am confused?

Average posture and wearing a balaclava. No there is no way to tell if its the same guy from those pictures.


So just same uniform and same weapon? In two different cities, but with one listed as a Russian solider, the other as a pro-Russian concerned citizen?

Anyone not stuck with there head in the sand can see both are Russian soldiers so yes its just the same standard issue uniform and standard issue weapon.

Oh I agree. I was just trying to point out (not necessarily to you) that there are armed Russian soldiers in Ukrainian cities actively trying to overthrow the government.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 12 2014 16:08 GMT
#8240
On April 12 2014 01:43 Roman666 wrote:
Ah, that was not my intent, not at all. He was an asshole, I agree. Just that his name always cames up as a synonym to an ultimate Ukrainian nazi/fascist, when there were even worse than him. I guess this is a result of him having statues all over western Ukraine.

It's the popularity that's more troubling than the extent of extremism.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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