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On April 11 2014 18:48 kukarachaa wrote:If the protests are fake and number of people protesting is insignificant, why do they need to bring police units from Poltava region, why do the local police refuse to do anything about it? Also if the "tiny number" of protesters doesn't represent the majority of the people, why not let them have their referendum and show the whole world, that Donbass region wants to be part of Ukraine. Surely with Ukraine's media telling people what to think and their special forces patrolling the streets ( much like Russia did in Crimea ), they can't lose this referendum under such " duress "?
Polixe: you need special units to deal with storming buildings and local police demonstrated that they can be bribed to step aside last Sunday.
Referendums aren't held often and quickly. The Scotland referendum is years in the making and still years off. That's the legitimate process. Having a referendum in a few weeks is not representative (hence Crimea was such a sham).
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On April 11 2014 18:51 Noldo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 18:42 Ghanburighan wrote:
Let me rephrase Incontrol, those numbers came straight out of your ass. The data that is available directly contradicts your numbers. Also, in terms of logic, Crimea was autonomous and de facto and de jure Russian speaking. There was no change with Yanukovich's fall to this status. There were no any changes for crimea. But there is base for fear, that such changes going to appear. How do you think, if someone who fighted with terrorists against russians in 90th became significant person and doing what he want in Kiev, what should russian in ukraine think?
That's incomprehensible, sorry.
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I don't know if this Noldo guy is funny or sad.
"It doesn't matter that elections are manipulated because the result is what i know to be true because of my divine insight"
See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one?
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 18:51 Silvanel wrote:
Thinking about this crisis and its effect on European politics i came to conclusion that Poland and Germany will lose the most because of this. We are already being hit hard(Russians are starting to shuting down our food export). And Germany will be hit, once our election cycle concludes. Our next goverment will be a lot less cooperative. They wont forgot German/British stance on this, and they will want payback. Nothing superbad, but they will most likely stall (or even sabotage) any works on paneuropean financial regulation, put on hold (cancelation isnt likely) EuroZone accesion preparation, push our nuclear project forward. There is also some work to be done on our coal expert to Germany (which is expected go up 60% just this year).
It will be nice for Russia! Keep it up comrade! ![[image loading]](http://chat.sc2tv.ru/img/ra.png)
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 18:55 Simberto wrote:
See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one?
There was no possible alternatives. Ukraine will neve let crimea make referendum. And without russian forces, it just will be forced to do what kiev say.
And about elections. In any countries it doesnt change, it just show changes, that is already here
On April 11 2014 18:54 Ghanburighan wrote:
That's incomprehensible, sorry.
I just referenced to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Muzychko
Which showed a lot of activity in february and mart, and seemed that noone in new government gives a shit.
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Well, our next goverment will for sure want to get even with Germany. Still they see Russia as main threat/enemy. The point of this poke-Germany competition will be the get their priorities to align with our more. --->One united front vs Russia is the ultimate goal.
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MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov called on Friday for legal guarantees of Ukraine's neutrality, underlining Moscow's determination to keep the neighboring former Soviet republic out of NATO.
Lavrov said Moscow was ready for four-party talks next week with the United States, the European Union and representatives of Ukraine and suggested Ukraine's gas debt to Moscow should be on the agenda, Russia news agencies reported.
But he suggested Moscow would try to use such talks to shape Ukraine's future and keep it from moving too close to Europe and the United States under the pro-Western leadership in power following the ouster of President Viktor Yanukovich.
"Firm guarantees of the preservation of Ukraine's non-aligned status law, are needed," Lavrov said at a meeting with Russian non-governmental organizations, adding that the guarantees should be "enshrined in law".
"Ukraine should not be a bone of contention, but a link in the chain of security architecture," Lavrov said. Yanukovich signed legislation in 2010 barring Ukraine from joining any military alliance.
NATO is concerned over what it says is a Russian military buildup near Ukraine's border following Moscow's annexation of its Crimea region last month, which turned tension over turmoil in Ukraine into the biggest East-West crisis since the Cold War.
Lavrov said that to resolve the crisis, the West should "halt attempts to legitimize the government of the Maidan" - a reference to the Kiev square at the center of protests that pushed Yanukovich from power.
He reiterated Russia's demand that Ukraine adopt constitutional reforms with strong input from all its regions.
Russia says the rights and interest of its compatriots in eastern and southern Ukraine are being ignored, and President Putin has reserved the right to send in the armed forces to protect them
source
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I like how you bring up, that Ukraine wants to be independent, when Euromaiden started because Ukraine wanted to be independent. Ukraine/Yanukovich said "no" to the EU and then shit happened!
Also - because you are "discussing" it - there is an old saying:
"If elections could change something, they would be banned!"
Just for understanding: You can change things with your vote! ... Sadly the result of elections will not end that your vote really would count! And I'm not talking about rigged elections. But most parties are all the same! Seriously, in over 50 years of Germany after WWII it didn't matter shit which of our big two parties were in the lead and who they cooperated with. In the big picture nothing changed in the government!
Also people are not interested in change! I was "working" for a small party and was on the streets to gather votes. And there are people coming around telling us, that we are stupid and no nothing about politics and he/she will vote for "their" party again - like they did for the last 30+ years. They don't read election programs or are interested what a party is or wants doing. They go "lalala" in their head for the "crunch time" before the election and just vote for the party they always voted.
With this in mind, every election is plain stupid! We could save money if we would stop bothering with elections. But oh yeah, we are not democratic anymore with that ...
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On April 11 2014 18:55 Simberto wrote:
I don't know if this Noldo guy is funny or sad.
"It doesn't matter that elections are manipulated because the result is what i know to be true because of my divine insight"
See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one?
I'll try to answer some of your points.
See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
We are not talking about those countries with real elections. We are dealing with Russia and Ukraine, their elections have always been cloudy and shady. It sucks but this is the way it is, and this won't be changing anytime soon. The whole mentality of people needs to change. When everything in their lives, even such things as seeing a doctor or having a kid go to school are based on favors, bribery, greasing the system, its no surprise, when people don't see shady elections as a big deal.
If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one?
It was normal and fair, to Russians, hell it was probably normal and fair to some Ukrainians, because most the CIS elections are manipulated.
International observers were there, but they were hand picked by the Russian Government. OBSE observers were invited as well, but they refused to come, since EU considered the referendum illegal and there was no point of them being there.
As for propaganda war, well what election doesn't have one.
Without Russian troops there, Ukraine would never let the referendum happen, and whole situation could have easily escalated into violent one, between the new government and the Crimea's militia.
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Russian Federation38 Posts
Election winner is not the one who gains more votes, and whoever counts them=)
This is the truth. And if you think that for example in US it's different you are so naive
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On April 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:
Without Russian troops there, Ukraine would never let the referendum happen, and whole situation could have easily escalated into violent one, between the new government and the Crimea's militia.
I'm just quoting you on your last statement. What militia? You mean the Russian military not wearing markings. Could you give any backing to the fact that Crimea had an anti-Ukrainian militia before Russia entered Crimea?
A significant part of Crimea has been advocating for joining Russia since they left in the 1991. Their parliament once voted for more independence in the early 1990s, but after pressure from Kiev they compromised. The argument that Russia entered to ensure it wouldn't devolve into a military confrontation is BS, because there isn't anything suggesting there was a para-military there in the first place. Not even during the Orange Revolution (when Ukraine went 'West' for the first time was there a para-military movement in Crimea for independence ).
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On April 11 2014 19:39 Mc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:
Without Russian troops there, Ukraine would never let the referendum happen, and whole situation could have easily escalated into violent one, between the new government and the Crimea's militia.
I'm just quoting you on your last statement. What militia? You mean the Russian military not wearing markings. Could you give any backing to the fact that Crimea had an anti-Ukrainian militia before Russia entered Crimea? A significant part of Crimea has been advocating for joining Russia since they left in the 1991. Their parliament once voted for more independence in the early 1990s, but after pressure from Kiev they compromised. The argument that Russia entered to ensure it wouldn't devolve into a military confrontation is BS, because there isn't anything suggesting there was a para-military there in the first place. Not even during the Orange Revolution (when Ukraine went 'West' for the first time was there a para-military movement in Crimea for independence ).
If you speak Russian, I can link you the video of the interview, with one of the militia's commanders, talking to reporter, from the station that opposed Russian intervention, so they had some good questions.
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On April 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 18:55 Simberto wrote:
I don't know if this Noldo guy is funny or sad.
"It doesn't matter that elections are manipulated because the result is what i know to be true because of my divine insight"
See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one? I'll try to answer some of your points. See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
We are not talking about those countries with real elections. We are dealing with Russia and Ukraine, their elections have always been cloudy and shady. It sucks but this is the way it is, and this won't be changing anytime soon. The whole mentality of people needs to change. When everything in their lives, even such things as seeing a doctor or having a kid go to school are based on favors, bribery, greasing the system, its no surprise, when people don't see shady elections as a big deal. If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one?It was normal and fair, to Russians, hell it was probably normal and fair to some Ukrainians, because most the CIS elections are manipulated. International observers were there, but they were hand picked by the Russian Government. OBSE observers were invited as well, but they refused to come, since EU considered the referendum illegal and there was no point of them being there. As for propaganda war, well what election doesn't have one. Without Russian troops there, Ukraine would never let the referendum happen, and whole situation could have easily escalated into violent one, between the new government and the Crimea's militia.
No you don't know if the gov in Kiev would have let a referendum go. There wasn't even a clear will of independence in Crimea before the crisis started. The annexation was not normal, it wasn't democratic at all.
And even if the gov in Kiev wouldn't have recognized or wanted the referendum, Russia and the international community would have intervened.
And like it was said 1000 times before, there are different level of propaganda. When you have an election in democratic countries, people are exposed to everyone's propaganda and populist speeches and other rational speeches but that was not the case in Crimea where any kind of opposition was shut down just like in Russia. Plus international observers and medias couldn't even enter Crimea (except the ones picked by Putin).
And it doesn't matter that it has always been like this, it's still retarded and not democratic and the zone should be going forward instead of stagnating in corruption and rigged elections.
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On April 11 2014 19:52 Acertos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On April 11 2014 18:55 Simberto wrote:
I don't know if this Noldo guy is funny or sad.
"It doesn't matter that elections are manipulated because the result is what i know to be true because of my divine insight"
See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one? I'll try to answer some of your points. See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
We are not talking about those countries with real elections. We are dealing with Russia and Ukraine, their elections have always been cloudy and shady. It sucks but this is the way it is, and this won't be changing anytime soon. The whole mentality of people needs to change. When everything in their lives, even such things as seeing a doctor or having a kid go to school are based on favors, bribery, greasing the system, its no surprise, when people don't see shady elections as a big deal. If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one?It was normal and fair, to Russians, hell it was probably normal and fair to some Ukrainians, because most the CIS elections are manipulated. International observers were there, but they were hand picked by the Russian Government. OBSE observers were invited as well, but they refused to come, since EU considered the referendum illegal and there was no point of them being there. As for propaganda war, well what election doesn't have one. Without Russian troops there, Ukraine would never let the referendum happen, and whole situation could have easily escalated into violent one, between the new government and the Crimea's militia. No you don't know if the gov in Kiev would have let a referendum go. There wasn't even a clear will of independence in Crimea before the crisis started. The annexation was not normal, it wasn't democratic at all. And even if the gov in Kiev wouldn't have recognized or wanted the referendum, Russia and the international community would have intervened. And like it was said 1000 times before, there are different level of propaganda. When you have an election in democratic countries, people are exposed to everyone's propaganda and populist speeches and other rational speeches but that was not the case in Crimea where any kind of opposition was shut down just like in Russia. Plus international observers and medias couldn't even enter Crimea (except the ones picked by Putin). And it doesn't matter that it has always been like this, it's still retarded and not democratic and the zone should be going forward instead of stagnating in corruption and rigged elections.
No you don't know if the gov in Kiev would have let a referendum go.
You right I don't know, but Ukraine's government has stated numerous times that there won't be any referendums in the Eastern part where the riots are currently taking place, so its safe to assume, they would have said the same thing to Crimea.
There wasn't even a clear will of independence in Crimea before the crisis started.
There was one, ever since the USSR break up, but it was very apathetic one. Its hard to explain. Basically people didn't really see themselves living in Russia or Ukraine, to them it was kind of the same, there was no need to go through the motions to officially join Russia. EuroMaidan changed that.
The annexation was not normal, it wasn't democratic at all.
Welcome to CIS.
And even if the gov in Kiev wouldn't have recognized or wanted the referendum, Russia and the international community would have intervened.
I disagree.
And like it was said 1000 times before, there are different level of propaganda. When you have an election in democratic countries, people are exposed to everyone's propaganda and populist speeches and other rational speeches but that was not the case in Crimea where any kind of opposition was shut down just like in Russia.
Can't argue with you there, People in Crimea for the most part were only exposed to Russian news and arguments.
Ukrainian government is partly to blame, they decided to vote on a motion to shut down Russian TV stations in Ukraine, gave a perfect excuse to shut down Ukrainian stations in Crimea as a response.
As for opposition there were plenty of people protesting against the referendum and making speeches, but yes some were harassed.
Plus international observers and medias couldn't even enter Crimea (except the ones picked by Putin).
OBSE observers were invited, but didn't come, since EU considered referendum illegal in the first place.
There was plenty of international media during the referendum, for example you can search for Vice news segment of covering the referendum on youtube.
And it doesn't matter that it has always been like this, it's still retarded and not democratic and the zone should be going forward instead of stagnating in corruption and rigged elections.
Well when you figure out how to go forward from all this corruption and rigged elections let me know.
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 19:52 Acertos wrote:
No you don't know if the gov in Kiev would have let a referendum go.
It's completely clear.
Problem with all that situation in Ukrain, that Yanukovich was replaced with peoples who not better at all. In fact, good that yanukovich is gone. But hope, that something will significantly change has no any base.
All that losses was for changing one thief to others.
Yes, even that is good, because their have more motivation to make some good things, but they are from same group of politics. They all use same methods. Mentality never changes so fast.
We know that mentality, and can be sure, that referendum will never happen in next 20-30 years minimum, if crimea would be under kiev control.
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There are so many things wrong with what Kukarachaa said, but as they have all been mentioned before, and it seems to have no effect on what he writes, I won't waste the space to correct it. It's sufficient to reassert that an illegitimate election isn't made legitimate by all elections being illegitimate. It's still illegitimate and thus not a legitimate solution. I'm fact, elections in the CIS are most definitely not all rigged, and not all rigged elections are equally flawed. But that's in the real of pointless correcting again, it's sufficient to point out that what is purported is a priori illegitimate.
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On April 11 2014 20:37 Noldo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 19:52 Acertos wrote:
No you don't know if the gov in Kiev would have let a referendum go. It's completely clear. Problem with all that situation in Ukrain, that Yanukovich was replaced with peoples who not better at all. In fact, good that yanukovich is gone. But hope, that something will significantly change has no any base. All that losses was for changing one thief to others. Yes, even that is good, because their have more motivation to make some good things, but they are from same group of politics. They all use same methods. Mentality never changes so fast. We know that mentality, and can be sure, that referendum will never happen in next 20-30 years minimum, if crimea would be under kiev control.
That's nonsense, you can predict 30 years into the future? 30 years ago Ukraine was part of the Soviet union. Things change way too radically in this time. This demonstrates that you're willing to say anything to support your beliefs, facts and reality be damned.
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Russian Federation39 Posts
Was situation on ukraine stable? Yes, it was.
Who started all that shit? Completely clear that it's not Russia. (But we know who invested money in that)
Was threatment to Russia in that actions? Of course.
Should Russia let events go as it is? Only if we want to lose power in that region and lose fleet base (just near our borders).
Is it acceptable? Lol no.
Absolutely clear there was agression against Russia. So, what you wanted? Now our fleet defended, noone died in that operation.
And NATO countries should learn how to defend interests without killing people, lol :D
Yes, our actions wasn't good.
But do we had alternative? No.
West countries "atacked", we "defended". Simple political gambling. Why everyone make show, like something unusual happened? Just because that time things went not by your plan?
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 20:57 Ghanburighan wrote:
That's nonsense, you can predict 30 years into the future? 30 years ago Ukraine was part of the Soviet union. Things change way too radically in this time. This demonstrates that you're willing to say anything to support your beliefs, facts and reality be damned.
Lol, no, that crisis was predefined in 1991 year, when two areas with completely different mentality and old resentments formed one country.
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On April 11 2014 20:26 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 19:52 Acertos wrote:On April 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On April 11 2014 18:55 Simberto wrote:
I don't know if this Noldo guy is funny or sad.
"It doesn't matter that elections are manipulated because the result is what i know to be true because of my divine insight"
See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one? I'll try to answer some of your points. See, what you don't appear to understand is that not everyone lives in russia. Some countries actually have real elections. Which do change things. Just because you live in a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean the rest of the world also does.
We are not talking about those countries with real elections. We are dealing with Russia and Ukraine, their elections have always been cloudy and shady. It sucks but this is the way it is, and this won't be changing anytime soon. The whole mentality of people needs to change. When everything in their lives, even such things as seeing a doctor or having a kid go to school are based on favors, bribery, greasing the system, its no surprise, when people don't see shady elections as a big deal. If you are so sure that everyone in Crimea wanted to join Russia, then can you explain the fact that there was no fair and unmanipulated referendum? If the russian regime was so sure of that, why didn't they just have a fair referendum, with a "no" option, international observers, no propaganda war, and all that stuff? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier, and lead to a lot less backlash from other countries? Is that just because putin doesn't even understand the concept of an unmanipulated vote? Or so russians don't start demanding that for themselves if the ukrainians get to have one?It was normal and fair, to Russians, hell it was probably normal and fair to some Ukrainians, because most the CIS elections are manipulated. International observers were there, but they were hand picked by the Russian Government. OBSE observers were invited as well, but they refused to come, since EU considered the referendum illegal and there was no point of them being there. As for propaganda war, well what election doesn't have one. Without Russian troops there, Ukraine would never let the referendum happen, and whole situation could have easily escalated into violent one, between the new government and the Crimea's militia. No you don't know if the gov in Kiev would have let a referendum go. There wasn't even a clear will of independence in Crimea before the crisis started. The annexation was not normal, it wasn't democratic at all. And even if the gov in Kiev wouldn't have recognized or wanted the referendum, Russia and the international community would have intervened. And like it was said 1000 times before, there are different level of propaganda. When you have an election in democratic countries, people are exposed to everyone's propaganda and populist speeches and other rational speeches but that was not the case in Crimea where any kind of opposition was shut down just like in Russia. Plus international observers and medias couldn't even enter Crimea (except the ones picked by Putin). And it doesn't matter that it has always been like this, it's still retarded and not democratic and the zone should be going forward instead of stagnating in corruption and rigged elections. No you don't know if the gov in Kiev would have let a referendum go.You right I don't know, but Ukraine's government has stated numerous times that there won't be any referendums in the Eastern part where the riots are currently taking place, so its safe to assume, they would have said the same thing to Crimea. There wasn't even a clear will of independence in Crimea before the crisis started.There was one, ever since the USSR break up, but it was very apathetic one. Its hard to explain. Basically people didn't really see themselves living in Russia or Ukraine, to them it was kind of the same, there was no need to go through the motions to officially join Russia. EuroMaidan changed that. The annexation was not normal, it wasn't democratic at all.Welcome to CIS. And even if the gov in Kiev wouldn't have recognized or wanted the referendum, Russia and the international community would have intervened.I disagree.
And like it was said 1000 times before, there are different level of propaganda. When you have an election in democratic countries, people are exposed to everyone's propaganda and populist speeches and other rational speeches but that was not the case in Crimea where any kind of opposition was shut down just like in Russia.Can't argue with you there, People in Crimea for the most part were only exposed to Russian news and arguments. Ukrainian government is partly to blame, they decided to vote on a motion to shut down Russian TV stations in Ukraine, gave a perfect excuse to shut down Ukrainian stations in Crimea as a response. As for opposition there were plenty of people protesting against the referendum and making speeches, but yes some were harassed. Plus international observers and medias couldn't even enter Crimea (except the ones picked by Putin).OBSE observers were invited, but didn't come, since EU considered referendum illegal in the first place. And it doesn't matter that it has always been like this, it's still retarded and not democratic and the zone should be going forward instead of stagnating in corruption and rigged elections.Well when you figure out how to go forward from all this corruption and rigged elections let me know.
In general a well thought out and factually based reply. However, you are incorrect about the Russian/Ukrainian TV banning situation.
OBSE observers were invited, but didn't come, since EU considered referendum illegal in the first place.
OSCE observers were invited but denied entry multiple times before the referendum. If your above statement is correct, that would suggest that even if they did try to come they would be denied access yet again. So the statement you responded to still holds- Russia was making it very difficult for foreign observers/media to enter Crimea.
Ukrainian government is partly to blame, they decided to vote on a motion to shut down Russian TV stations in Ukraine, gave a perfect excuse to shut down Ukrainian stations in Crimea as a response.
Order of events:
March 6th:
Armed men turn off Ukrainian TV in Crimea. Broadcast Russian TV instead
Ukraine calls for review of Russian TV broadcast licensing
March 11th:
Ukraine suspends various Russian TV broadcast in Ukraine
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EPT
