Ukraine Crisis - Page 409

On April 11 2014 17:19 Noldo wrote:

That's how threads witn 50+ pages in internet works ;D
And you can feel free and not answer me. :3

On April 11 2014 17:20 zlefin wrote:


Governments of strong countries can be like that too; progress is being made in the world. Never is too strong a word.

I disagree with those numbers; and anecdotes from friends don't go that far as evidence.
At any rate, the referendum was illegitimate; and if the prospects were that good, why do an invasion when they could have just gone for a legitimate referendum?

in terms of repeating things, the best solution is to edit-add stuff to original post or something first page-ish so people can just be pointed to that.

On April 11 2014 17:21 Gorsameth wrote:

the answer to every single thing you said has been read the thread because its all been discussed and answered already.

On April 11 2014 17:08 Noldo wrote:

There is places like thar and people like that of course. But it's never governments of strong countries. I can't believe, that someone could argue with that

It's unclear only for somone who never was in crimea and have no friends, who live there.
Referendum was made under some pressure ofc, probably there was even some falsifications. But at least 60-70% of crimeans will vote to became part of russia even if we will replace russian forces with ukrainian and flood crimea with ukrainian mass media for year..

On April 11 2014 17:30 Mc wrote:

So most Crimeans were for Ukrainian Independence in 1991 (i.e. they didn't want to be part of Russia, they wanted to be part of Ukraine) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_independence_referendum,_1991

Having friends in Crimea won't convince anyone but yourself. Visiting a region and having friends there, doesn't make you an authority on what percentage of the populations wants this/believes this. Especially in a divided region.

It seems like polls are inconclusive before the Russian invasion + propaganda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014#Polling
Some give Crimean independence a majority, some a minority.

My opinion is that over 50% of Crimeans asked in a fair vote would vote for independence. Yes they have been subject to Russian media propaganda for a long time, but you can't change that. But that's my opinion, and we don't have anything conclusive to tell us that without Russian invasion that most people would vote yes.

On April 11 2014 17:30 Mc wrote:
So most Crimeans were for Ukrainian Independence in 1991 (i.e. they didn't want to be part of Russia, they wanted to be part of Ukraine) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_independence_referendum,_1991

Having friends in Crimea won't convince anyone but yourself. Visiting a region and having friends there, doesn't make you an authority on what percentage of the populations wants this/believes this. Especially in a divided region.

It seems like polls are inconclusive before the Russian invasion + propaganda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014#Polling
Some give Crimean independence a majority, some a minority.

My opinion is that over 50% of Crimeans asked in a fair vote would vote for independence. Yes they have been subject to Russian media propaganda for a long time, but you can't change that. But that's my opinion, and we don't have anything conclusive to tell us that without Russian invasion that most people would vote yes.

On April 11 2014 17:37 Maenander wrote:

It's true: It wasn't a fair referendum. But without the Russian invasion Ukraine would have never ever allowed a referendum. So a fair referendum was never a possibility.

On April 11 2014 17:40 Noldo wrote:

37% is not "Most crimeans"

And captain obvious said me, that government overthrow, new economical crisis in ukraine and nacists in kiev have much more to do with referendum results, than 1 month of russian propaganda after "invasion".
First thing, "new" government did - canceled last working law, describing status of russian language. Thanks to them, they gave us just another 10% in referendum ;D


Exactly.

On April 11 2014 18:02 Simberto wrote:


Please, Please, read the thread before spouting the same nonsense that has been debunked at least 5 times already.

On April 11 2014 18:08 Noldo wrote:

Read 409 pages? Really?
No, thank you, At least, i'm writing here from work :D

BTW. In hour or so, time, that ukrainian government gave to protesters in east to free government buildins, will finish.
Lets hope, that there won't be any shooting and victims.

On April 11 2014 18:02 Simberto wrote:

Please, Please, read the thread before spouting the same nonsense that has been debunked at least 5 times already. And there are no referendum results. 93%. Please. That is so obviously a purely fictious result i find it amazing that people actually act like it means ANYTHING at all. Or do you also believe that 100% of North Koreans elect Kim Jong Un every time they have an election. You probably even believe you have fair elections in Russia, right?

On April 11 2014 18:12 Mc wrote:Paid Russian troll!!?!!?!?!?

On April 11 2014 16:12 Noldo wrote:

Do you agree that more, than 50% of crimea people wanted crimea to became part of russia?

Also: "Other than deploying 10,000 special forces" proof?

On April 11 2014 18:22 Mc wrote:
In reference to the 37% number, I stand corrected. Of the Crimeans who voted 54% were for joining Ukraine. 40% didn't vote, even though they had the option of voting 'NO' for Ukrainian independence. And I agree - what I posted if something lends credence to Crimeans wanting to be in Russia. In general people who are disillusioned vote for changing the status quo. In 1991 they were disillusioned and voted to leave Russia, and now a lot of Crimeans are disillusioned and want to join Russia (probably a majority although we don't have any conclusive polls, that weren't made under duress).

On April 11 2014 18:26 Ghanburighan wrote:

Lots of posts, very little content because Noldo hasn't read the thread. You don't need to read the entire thread, there's an excellent search function on TL, use it please. You will also find the last fair poll from Crimea reporting much less than 50 percent support for joining Russia. This is also showcased by the self proclaimed PM of Crimea having only a couple of seats in the rada. But the point is that the referendum was illegal in terms of Crimean procedural rules, the Ukrainian constitution and international law (explanation in the tjread). So it doesn't matter who supported what, the annexation was illegitimate.

On April 11 2014 18:33 Noldo wrote:

Probably (as i see it). There is about 50/50 or 60/40 people who want to be part of russia. But it's only true if nothing significant happens.
Now i'm sure, that its about 80-90% people who want to became part of russia, Why i think so? Ukraine too unstable now, it gdp rep capita much less and russia will invest much money to crimea. (How that perfect recreation zone was unprofitable xX Dont understand)
If ukraine just invest money there in last years, gave slightly moe autonomy to them, and was stable, that amount wold be less than 50%.
But now.. I see no reasons for anyone to want to be part of ukraine.

On April 11 2014 18:38 Noldo wrote:

I read russian 400 page thread already, and seen lot of prooves. Just first time see "10000" number.

Also, lets not forget, that first who forget about ukr
ainian constitution was rada, who deposed president (constitution was forgotten while they did it)

On April 11 2014 18:42 Ghanburighan wrote:
Let me rephrase Incontrol, those numbers came straight out of your ass. The data that is available directly contradicts your numbers. Also, in terms of logic, Crimea was autonomous and de facto and de jure Russian speaking. There was no change with Yanukovich's fall to this status.