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On April 11 2014 02:07 Simberto wrote:
At least it is becoming very clear that we should very, very quickly find some other source of energy that is not russian gas, because Putin will use that gas line as a weapon. And considering his recent foreign policies i think that limiting the amount of pressure Russia can exert on other countries can only be a good thing.
That was known for years. Eastern European goverments were talking and talking about it since like dawn of time.Germany (Shroeder) went to bed with Putin on this and now act all surprised.
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On April 11 2014 09:20 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 02:00 Gorsameth wrote:On April 11 2014 01:57 RvB wrote:MOSCOW (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin warned European leaders on Thursday Russia would cut natural gas supplies to Ukraine if it did not pay its bills and said this could lead to a reduction of onward deliveries to Europe.
In a letter to the leaders of 18 countries, he demanded urgent talks with Europe on pulling Ukraine's economy out of crisis but made clear his patience was running out over Kiev's $2.2 billion gas debt to its former Soviet master.
His comments were Russia's most explicit threat to cut off gas to its neighbor, a move that could worsen a dispute over Moscow's annexation of Crimea that has resulted in the worst East-West crisis since the end of the Cold war in 1991.
"...Gazprom is compelled to switch over to advance payment for gas deliveries and in the event of further violation of the conditions of payment will completely or partially cease gas deliveries," Putin said in the letter, sent to European leaders including German Chancellor Angela Merkel, whose country is the largest consumer of Russian gas in the 28-nation EU.
"Undoubtedly, this is an extreme measure. We fully realise that this increases the risk of (Ukraine) siphoning off natural gas passing through Ukraine's territory and heading to European consumers," Putin wrote in the letter, seen by Reuters. sourceWe should get back on topic. Hilarious threats after they more then doubled(or was it tripled) the price of gas since the crisis began. To be fair, the prices are merely being brought in-line with the average European prices on gas. It's not like they're marking it up for Ukraine specifically or something. Pretty much everyone in Russia believes starting to charge Ukraine for gas properly has been loooong overdue, and it's not like Ukraineans haven't been blatantly stealing Russian gas for years even with all the discounts and loans they've been getting on it.
We are paying more than Germany for Russian gas. Putin has used it as political weapon since like forever.
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On April 11 2014 14:01 Noldo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:
That's a bit of a short-sighted statement. Russia is just as dependent on EU money as EU is dependent on Russian gas. All countries are dependent on each others, and that is simple fact, which we should not forget. But Ukraine politics forget it. And for latest 20 years ukrainian education system and mass media tells people, that ukraine is under russian occupation for latest 350 years, and all that time russian threated ukraine people and their culture. (But when USSR had gone, ukraine had best infrastructure, and one of the best industry zone. Also size of ukraine doubled in XX century under russian "occupation". I won't protest, if someone will occupy russia that way ^^ ) And that is root of problem. Too much of antirussian propaganda was there at last 20 years (and it works well in west ukraine, while almost didn't worked in east), and all that events came to life, because too many people now just blame russian in all ukrainian problems and dont want to think rationally. When you base you actions on emotions, and half of country feels the same, while other - not, you won't get anything acceptable. (Emotions never lead to anything good  ) In fact, Russia made nothing to get Crimea. Ukrainian politics and euromaidan did all that things on their own. Does Russia act good in that history? No. We just defended our interests. And any other country will do so in such situation. Real politics is just like "Game of thrones" (just direct killing is more problematic). I don't like it, but there is only 2 alternatives: you hands is dirty or you're dead (because hands of all other gamblers will be dirty for sure) x_x And i wonder how ukraine going to end crisis, whithout russia. I think, it would be interesting to watch.
Funny, my parents grew up in ukraine. There was no anti-russian propaganda. There was no anti-russian taught in school. There was no sort of anti russian sentiment. Are you sure this isn't just more russian propaganda?
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 14:52 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 14:01 Noldo wrote:On April 11 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:
That's a bit of a short-sighted statement. Russia is just as dependent on EU money as EU is dependent on Russian gas. All countries are dependent on each others, and that is simple fact, which we should not forget. But Ukraine politics forget it. And for latest 20 years ukrainian education system and mass media tells people, that ukraine is under russian occupation for latest 350 years, and all that time russian threated ukraine people and their culture. (But when USSR had gone, ukraine had best infrastructure, and one of the best industry zone. Also size of ukraine doubled in XX century under russian "occupation". I won't protest, if someone will occupy russia that way ^^ ) And that is root of problem. Too much of antirussian propaganda was there at last 20 years (and it works well in west ukraine, while almost didn't worked in east), and all that events came to life, because too many people now just blame russian in all ukrainian problems and dont want to think rationally. When you base you actions on emotions, and half of country feels the same, while other - not, you won't get anything acceptable. (Emotions never lead to anything good ) In fact, Russia made nothing to get Crimea. Ukrainian politics and euromaidan did all that things on their own. Does Russia act good in that history? No. We just defended our interests. And any other country will do so in such situation. Real politics is just like "Game of thrones" (just direct killing is more problematic). I don't like it, but there is only 2 alternatives: you hands is dirty or you're dead (because hands of all other gamblers will be dirty for sure) x_x And i wonder how ukraine going to end crisis, whithout russia. I think, it would be interesting to watch. Funny, my parents grew up in ukraine. There was no anti-russian propaganda. There was no anti-russian taught in school. There was no sort of anti russian sentiment. Are you sure this isn't just more russian propaganda?
The question is: which part of ukraine your parents from? For example in Crimea most of peoples are russian and russian language everywhere is in use (schools, documents, markets etc.). Almost same with east ukraine. But west ukraine is hostile to russia.
How do you think, is making hero from fascist ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera ), who genocided all non-ukrainian people, part of propaganda? And what is direction of that propaganda?
And, if you can write here, and your parents "grew up in ukraine", probably it happened too long ago, and they didnt saw new school history books and didnt heard ukrainian mass media in XXI c.
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On April 11 2014 14:01 Noldo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:
That's a bit of a short-sighted statement. Russia is just as dependent on EU money as EU is dependent on Russian gas. In fact, Russia made nothing to get Crimea. Ukrainian politics and euromaidan did all that things on their own. h.
Other than deploying 10,000 special forces, forced through a referendum, spent the last 3 months running propaganda that everyone in West Ukraine is a bandra lover -- the far right in the Presidential elections has 3% of support, less support than Russian Nazis have in Russia.
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 15:59 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 14:01 Noldo wrote:On April 11 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:
That's a bit of a short-sighted statement. Russia is just as dependent on EU money as EU is dependent on Russian gas. In fact, Russia made nothing to get Crimea. Ukrainian politics and euromaidan did all that things on their own. h. Other than deploying 10,000 special forces, forced through a referendum, spent the last 3 months running propaganda that everyone in West Ukraine is a bandra lover -- the far right in the Presidential elections has 3% of support, less support than Russian Nazis have in Russia.
Do you agree that more, than 50% of crimea people wanted crimea to became part of russia?
Also: "Other than deploying 10,000 special forces" proof?
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Noone knows. Noone ever asked them.
What we do know is that russia invaded and annexed Crimea. If you want to see how to do this sort of thing correctly, look at the scotland referendum. Spoiler: It does not involve foreign troops, a referendum with no "no" option, or obvious manipulations of the result thereof.
Also, are you seriously trying to say that the obvious russian military types with russian military gear are just "local self defense forces" who just happen to buy a few russian military helicopters, APCs and artillery pieces at the street corner? Because we have had this discussion multiple time. And even the other russians don't try to convince us of that BS anymore.
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 16:20 Simberto wrote:
Also, are you seriously trying to say that the obvious russian military types with russian military gear are just "local self defense forces" who just happen to buy a few russian military helicopters, APCs and artillery pieces at the street corner? Because we have had this discussion multiple time. And even the other russians don't try to convince us of that BS anymore.
Ofc i dont want to say that. It was russian forces.
But more than 2/3 people in crimea wanted to became part of russia all that years (at least because they are russians, lol).
I have friends from crimea, and i'm 100% confident in that.
Also, we could be sure that it was only way to evade deaths there. How much people died because of that operation? (Invasion, that killed noone, lol)
And what, do you think, should Russia do? Left Sevastopol and lose fleet base in Black see?
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Yeah. I never actualy shared it with You cause its not that important. But some polish jurnalists entered Crimea from the Russian side (Kerch straits) in the middle of the crisis. There was absolutly no border control, Russians shiping heavy equipment and soldiers trough the straits ( troops having prirority over ordinary people--->stoping all civilian traffic until they were done). It was invasion allright. Just no shots were fired cause Ukrainians were already pinned in their bases.
The funny thing is, in those parts of the world some people want to be Russian even when technicaly they are not. I was once a housmate with two girls. One was from Kazakhstan, but she was insisting she is Russian (i did buy it afterall, nothing strange in Russian living in Kazahstan). But her friend told me, that she is no Russian. "She just pretends to be, cause she is ashamed to be Kazkh". I guess for some being Russian is some sort of achievment or advancment.
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On April 11 2014 14:01 Noldo wrote:
And that is root of problem. Too much of antirussian propaganda was there at last 20 years (and it works well in west ukraine, while almost didn't worked in east), and all that events came to life, because too many people now just blame russian in all ukrainian problems and dont want to think rationally.
I don't know if there really was antirussian propaganda - but I could believe it - but that the east/south-east was not effected by that so much is not surprising. And an important part, why all this is happening right now.
If you have troubles and are struggling, it's very easy to blame exterior "forces". That's basically how WWII started (Germany was in big depression and it was blamed on the Jews). And the east/south-east Ukraine is not struggling! Because the big industries are "all" located there and the unemployment there is waaaay down to the western parts! So if someone blames the Russians for being the reason they have problems the Eastern citizens were like "what are you talking about? I have a steady and quite secure job! It's fine!" And Western could blame their unemployment on the "still oppressing Russians".
I don't say, that there is no oppression from Russia; could be. But it's different, how you react!
And this is the reason why it's so hard for the Ukraine to let go of Crimea! If Crimea was "completely" broke and high unemployment and the only interesting thing there would be the Black Sea station from the Russians, Ukraine would have quite less problems to accept the "annexation" or "federalization" of Crimea. Why should they really bother?
I'm from Germany and if the counties Bavaria and Baden-Wuerttemberg would say "bye" to this country and make an own, the rest would do absolutely everything to stop this! Because there are the big industries and low unemployment and they are basically paying many bills from the other counties, because they are making money instead of loosing it!
It's all back to money and economy!
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 16:30 Silvanel wrote:
The funny thing is, in those parts of the world some people want to be Russian even when technicaly they are not. I was once a housmate with two girls. One was from Kazakhstan, but she was insisting she is Russian (i did buy it afterall, nothing strange in Russian living in Kazahstan). But her friend told me, that she is no Russian. "She just pretends to be, cause she is ashamed to be Kazkh". I guess for some being Russian is some sort of achievment or advancment.
Just want to make that thing clear.
For many people "being russian" is not national appearance thing. In Russia it's really common, if some asians calls themselves russian. And they are. Being russian (for many people) have nothing to do with their appearance, but only with culture. If people grew up on russian writers, talking russian language all life, watching russian movies they ARE russian. Even if they looks completely like chinese :D
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 16:35 Geisterkarle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 14:01 Noldo wrote:
And that is root of problem. Too much of antirussian propaganda was there at last 20 years (and it works well in west ukraine, while almost didn't worked in east), and all that events came to life, because too many people now just blame russian in all ukrainian problems and dont want to think rationally. It's all back to money and economy!
Exactly. All that things just about economy and political interests.
And funny, that some people (especially from NATO countries, lol) keep pretending that human rights thing is significant to someone in our world.
We defended our interests, noone died from that and most of crimea people just happy with that. (Ukraine made that region unprofitable, lol :D And now Russia will spend much money here at least for showing that becoming Russian territory is good for that territory).
What country, NATO interfered with, can say something like that? ;D
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It's not pretending; human rights actually do matter to some. It can be hard to imagine that growing up in Russia; but there are places like that.
Also, it's quite unclear what the actual opinions of people of crimea are; there's been far too much threat to get an accurate current assessment.
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On April 11 2014 09:20 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 02:00 Gorsameth wrote:On April 11 2014 01:57 RvB wrote:MOSCOW (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin warned European leaders on Thursday Russia would cut natural gas supplies to Ukraine if it did not pay its bills and said this could lead to a reduction of onward deliveries to Europe. How about a RUSSIATIMES article to back that up  In a letter to the leaders of 18 countries, he demanded urgent talks with Europe on pulling Ukraine's economy out of crisis but made clear his patience was running out over Kiev's $2.2 billion gas debt to its former Soviet master. His comments were Russia's most explicit threat to cut off gas to its neighbor, a move that could worsen a dispute over Moscow's annexation of Crimea that has resulted in the worst East-West crisis since the end of the Cold war in 1991. "...Gazprom is compelled to switch over to advance payment for gas deliveries and in the event of further violation of the conditions of payment will completely or partially cease gas deliveries," Putin said in the letter, sent to European leaders including German Chancellor Angela Merkel, whose country is the largest consumer of Russian gas in the 28-nation EU. "Undoubtedly, this is an extreme measure. We fully realise that this increases the risk of (Ukraine) siphoning off natural gas passing through Ukraine's territory and heading to European consumers," Putin wrote in the letter, seen by Reuters. We should get back on topic. Hilarious threats after they more then doubled(or was it tripled) the price of gas since the crisis began. To be fair, the prices are merely being brought in-line with the average European prices on gas. It's not like they're marking it up for Ukraine specifically or something. Pretty much everyone in Russia believes starting to charge Ukraine for gas properly has been loooong overdue, and it's not like Ukraineans haven't been blatantly stealing Russian gas for years even with all the discounts and loans they've been getting on it.
False. Prices for Ukraine were brought up to over 100$ more than EU average.
RT link backing that up :p
So they raised it twice- once to the EU average, and then once again a 100$ over it. Their explanation for the second raise is basically "we signed a deal with you to keep gas price at X level, if you extend our right to use Crimean military bases till 2042. Since we invaded Crimea and it's ours now, that deal is void." A kick to the balls, when you're already on the ground.
" It's not like they're marking it up for Ukraine specifically or something".
-They give two raises to ukraine, almost doubling gas price, and it's not being done specifically for Ukraine. What!?
"Prretty much everyone in Russia believes starting to charge Ukraine for gas properly has been loooong overdue"
- They just gave a discount a few months ago, but now that Ukraine has 'gone West', they cancel that discount. Kinda refutes both of your statements.
This thread is not really changing my perspective on Russians. It's changing my view on Germans.
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Insightful look into the current German thinking on Russia:
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 17:00 zlefin wrote:
It's not pretending; human rights actually do matter to some. It can be hard to imagine that growing up in Russia; but there are places like that.
There is places like that and people like that of course. But it's never governments of strong countries. I can't believe, that someone could argue with that
On April 11 2014 17:00 zlefin wrote:
Also, it's quite unclear what the actual opinions of people of crimea are; there's been far too much threat to get an accurate current assessment.
It's unclear only for somone who never was in crimea and have no friends, who live there.
Referendum was made under some pressure ofc, probably there was even some falsifications. But at least 60-70% of crimeans will vote to became part of russia even if we will replace russian forces with ukrainian and flood crimea with ukrainian mass media for year..
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On April 11 2014 16:43 Noldo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 16:30 Silvanel wrote:
The funny thing is, in those parts of the world some people want to be Russian even when technicaly they are not. I was once a housmate with two girls. One was from Kazakhstan, but she was insisting she is Russian (i did buy it afterall, nothing strange in Russian living in Kazahstan). But her friend told me, that she is no Russian. "She just pretends to be, cause she is ashamed to be Kazkh". I guess for some being Russian is some sort of achievment or advancment. Just want to make that thing clear. For many people "being russian" is not national appearance thing. In Russia it's really common, if some asians calls themselves russian. And they are. Being russian (for many people) have nothing to do with their appearance, but only with culture. If people grew up on russian writers, talking russian language all life, watching russian movies they ARE russian. Even if they looks completely like chinese :D
Actualy that doesnt matter also. Only thing that matter is what is written in Your passport/id card. You dont become Russian by reading Dostoevsky and watching Russia today. At least not by western standards. (But pretty much yes by Russian).
Russia is domintaing their neighbours economically and culturally. No wonder those people want te be Russian, and Russia wants to expand its influance that way. But that is narrative west is not willing to accept.
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Sigh oh look another new Russian in the thread who makes us repeat all the arguments we have had in the last 100+ pages...
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Russian Federation39 Posts
On April 11 2014 17:16 Gorsameth wrote:
Sigh oh look another new Russian in the thread who makes us repeat all the arguments we have had in the last 100+ pages...
That's how threads witn 50+ pages in internet works ;D
And you can feel free and not answer me. :3
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On April 11 2014 17:08 Noldo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 17:00 zlefin wrote:
It's not pretending; human rights actually do matter to some. It can be hard to imagine that growing up in Russia; but there are places like that. There is places like that and people like that of course. But it's never governments of strong countries. I can't believe, that someone could argue with that Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 17:00 zlefin wrote:
Also, it's quite unclear what the actual opinions of people of crimea are; there's been far too much threat to get an accurate current assessment. It's unclear only for somone who never was in crimea and have no friends, who live there. Referendum was made under some pressure ofc, probably there was even some falsifications. But at least 60-70% of crimeans will vote to became part of russia even if we will replace russian forces with ukrainian and flood crimea with ukrainian mass media for year..
Governments of strong countries can be like that too; progress is being made in the world. Never is too strong a word.
I disagree with those numbers; and anecdotes from friends don't go that far as evidence.
At any rate, the referendum was illegitimate; and if the prospects were that good, why do an invasion when they could have just gone for a legitimate referendum?
in terms of repeating things, the best solution is to edit-add stuff to original post or something first page-ish so people can just be pointed to that.
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EPT
