EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 413
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Sent.
Poland9331 Posts
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 13 2014 01:18 Sent. wrote: Oh wow the next elections will be held on 25 May. I don't understand why they are waiting so long. Ukraine can't stop Russians without a goverment with unquestionable legitimacy. non-Russian style elections take time to organize. You cant just pre-print 90% of ballot boxes with a Yes, paint some scary looking Nazi symbols and anti gay propaganda, invite fringe Europeans to validate them and call it a day. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9331 Posts
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
On April 13 2014 01:47 Sent. wrote: Obviously changing the date now is a bad idea, I just think that waiting till the end of May gives Russia too much time to set up events like those in Donetsk. Do you think elections in the middle of April would be too early? I imagine they're going with the idea that changing it is a sign of instability, while keeping everything the same as if it were normal promotes stability. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 12 2014 08:35 Cheerio wrote: Russian media caught lying, again. http://belsat.eu/en/wiadomosci/a,19130,prorussian-protester-and-maidan-mercenary-in-one-skin-russian-propaganda-makes-epic-blooper-video.html Funny how since Cheerio posted this video that none of the Putin-defenders have posted in this thread. It's easy for idiots to deny intelligent factual arguments, however video evidence can be a lot more difficult to deny. I was hoping to see what the Russians would have to say concerning this video... edit: Turns out he also played a third role : heroic surgeon | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On April 13 2014 04:10 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: MTV3 news just told that there were 50 people pro-russian protest in Estonia. Narva, Memelland and Kleipéda. Russia wanting a conflict with the west to get what is rightfully theirs. These areas are Russias to take under the same pretences as Crimea (illegal border-drawing, majority of russian nationality and "discrimination against the russian language"). Instability can be bought or induced... | ||
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Banaora
Germany234 Posts
In my opinion voting in Ukraine comes too late. Russians knew why they were speeding up the voting on Crimea. Then to let people from Svoboda into the government who had nothing better to do than try to get rid of Russian as official language - thus giving Russia a chance to start their propaganda. Then officially give Berkut all the fault for Maidan shootings when someone from the prosecution team talks on German television that also shots were fired from a hotel where people from the right sector and svoboda were staying. The general prosecutor being from svoboda putting this under the carpet. Now police stations in eastern Ukraine get raided. Gee, what exactly is the police doing there, that their police stations get raided? Then the breakup of Berkut so Ukraine has no special forces any more. Who is going to deal with this situation now? If the government in Kiev had real influence in eastern Ukraine stuff like this would not be happening. Russia is taking advantage of this situation. Not because it's evil or anything but because they look after their interest in the area. And the "West" let's these idiots into power and seemingly supports them. | ||
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On April 13 2014 04:47 Banaora wrote: There is so many mistakes when dealing with this situation. I'm just buffled. In my opinion voting in Ukraine comes too late. Russians knew why they were speeding up the voting on Crimea. Then to let people from Svoboda into the government who had nothing better to do than try to get rid of Russian as official language - thus giving Russia a chance to start their propaganda. Then officially give Berkut all the fault for Maidan shootings when someone from the prosecution team talks on German television that also shots were fired from a hotel where people from the right sector and svoboda were staying. The general prosecutor being from svoboda putting this under the carpet. Now police stations in eastern Ukraine get raided. Gee, what exactly is the police doing there, that their police stations get raided? Then the breakup of Berkut so Ukraine has no special forces any more. Who is going to deal with this situation now? If the government in Kiev had real influence in eastern Ukraine stuff like this would not be happening. Russia is taking advantage of this situation. Not because it's evil or anything but because they look after their interest in the area. And the "West" let's these idiots into power and seemingly supports them. Berkut was mostly an anti-riot formation, rather than special forces. Now we have a "self-defence" forces with Russian army equipment bought around the corner trying to take over police stations all over the east. So far it seems they succeeded with raiding only one police station, the one in Sloviansk, and were repelled everywhere else. So the police must be doing something afterall. | ||
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Banaora
Germany234 Posts
You know the goverment in Kiev had all the time to prepare for something like this. What are they doing? They put more oil into the fire all the time. And then they wonder why everything around them blows up. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 13 2014 04:47 Banaora wrote: There is so many mistakes when dealing with this situation. I'm just buffled. In my opinion voting in Ukraine comes too late. Russians knew why they were speeding up the voting on Crimea. Then to let people from Svoboda into the government who had nothing better to do than try to get rid of Russian as official language - thus giving Russia a chance to start their propaganda. Then officially give Berkut all the fault for Maidan shootings when someone from the prosecution team talks on German television that also shots were fired from a hotel where people from the right sector and svoboda were staying. The general prosecutor being from svoboda putting this under the carpet. Now police stations in eastern Ukraine get raided. Gee, what exactly is the police doing there, that their police stations get raided? Then the breakup of Berkut so Ukraine has no special forces any more. Who is going to deal with this situation now? If the government in Kiev had real influence in eastern Ukraine stuff like this would not be happening. Russia is taking advantage of this situation. Not because it's evil or anything but because they look after their interest in the area. And the "West" let's these idiots into power and seemingly supports them. Russia is taking advantage of this situation. Not because it's evil or anything but because they look after their interest in the area. And the "West" let's these idiots into power and seemingly supports them Are you saying that what Russia is doing is 'OK'? Most people in E. Ukraine don't want to join Russia. Escalating the crisis will lead to deaths, escalating the crisis will break families apart (tighten borders, possible land-grab). E. Ukraine will provide no economical benefits to Russia. So in my opinion it's not 'OK'. It's wrong, you could even say 'evil' depending on your interpretation of the word 'evil' But you seem to take a nihilistic view point on things. It's not wrong, if it's in your own interest. So how is destabilizing E. Ukraine in Russia's interest? Clearly, it won't provide economically, and will actually lead to worse business w/ Europe and Europe to seek ways to reduce energy dependency. Thus it will be economically bad. The only 'interest' here is pride. As to the 'idiots' in power, they're no worse than Yanukovych and potentially better. Given the situation I think the Ukrainian government is performing alright: not giving into Russian provocation, not calling elections when emotions are high and before they can be properly setup, disarming the people that attacked EuroMaidan. Making Ukrainian the only official language was a big mistake, but they realized that and annulled the resolution. And how are they putting more 'oil into the fire'? That's what Russia is doing... You are accusing Ukraine of being both passive and aggressive?? | ||
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Alur
Denmark3900 Posts
On April 13 2014 04:37 radiatoren wrote: Narva, Memelland and Kleipéda. Russia wanting a conflict with the west to get what is rightfully theirs. These areas are Russias to take under the same pretences as Crimea (illegal border-drawing, majority of russian nationality and "discrimination against the russian language"). Instability can be bought or induced... I don't think there is a russian majority in Klaipėda though. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9331 Posts
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
On April 13 2014 05:52 Alur wrote: I don't think there is a russian majority in Klaipėda though. There used to not be a Russian majority in Crimea either. (I'm not being that serious with the suggestion, but still something to think about.) | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On April 13 2014 05:52 Alur wrote: I don't think there is a russian majority in Klaipėda though. That is probably true. Add in a kick-ass strategic ice-free harbour for Russias fleet instead. | ||
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Banaora
Germany234 Posts
On April 13 2014 05:32 Mc wrote: Russia is taking advantage of this situation. Not because it's evil or anything but because they look after their interest in the area. And the "West" let's these idiots into power and seemingly supports them Are you saying that what Russia is doing is 'OK'? Most people in E. Ukraine don't want to join Russia. Escalating the crisis will lead to deaths, escalating the crisis will break families apart (tighten borders, possible land-grab). E. Ukraine will provide no economical benefits to Russia. So in my opinion it's not 'OK'. It's wrong, you could even say 'evil' depending on your interpretation of the word 'evil' But you seem to take a nihilistic view point on things. It's not wrong, if it's in your own interest. So how is destabilizing E. Ukraine in Russia's interest? Clearly, it won't provide economically, and will actually lead to worse business w/ Europe and Europe to seek ways to reduce energy dependency. Thus it will be economically bad. The only 'interest' here is pride. As to the 'idiots' in power, they're no worse than Yanukovych and potentially better. Given the situation I think the Ukrainian government is performing alright: not giving into Russian provocation, not calling elections when emotions are high and before they can be properly setup, disarming the people that attacked EuroMaidan. Making Ukrainian the only official language was a big mistake, but they realized that and annulled the resolution. And how are they putting more 'oil into the fire'? That's what Russia is doing... You are accusing Ukraine of being both passive and aggressive?? I don't see myself in a position to say whether it's okay or not. Every country has interests and follows them. Russia secured its military base on Crimea with its only warm-water port. They don't have to pay for it any more and the population there seems content to be part of Russia now. I told why in my previous posts already. So from their perspective it's probably well okay. From the Ukrainian perspective it's not okay. They lost part of their country. As a U.S. citizen you know very well that your country also does things that are deemed not okay by other countries or citizens, but the U.S. says it defends its vital interests and they are okay from U.S. perspective. I don't know whether most people in eastern Ukraine don't want to join Russia. I think you are right, but things could change. So I don't know. Lots of people there are working in Russia because they earn more money there. They watch Russian TV. They have relative in Russia and vice versa. The ties are pretty strong. Russia's primary interest in my opinion is to secure that Ukraine will never become a NATO member. I think if this cannot be secured by talks Russia might invade into eastern Ukraine and secure a buffer zone from its border this way. Again it's your opinion they are not worse than Yanukovich. In my opinion they are really bad and I listed some of their mistakes already. Mistakes you should not make considering how volatile the situation is. How can you say they are performing all right when they seem to wait until shit happens instead of being pro-active? They delt terribly with the Crimean situation. It feels they have no concept dealing with the problems in eastern Ukraine. Federation is not a bad idea if it helps to secure the integrity of the country. You don't wait until Russia demands this. You offer it yourself and determine the agenda. Okay maybe this is asking too much given they are thrown together and not elected. Btw do you really think things will have cooled down until the end of May when the elections will take place? I think the opposite. Hope you are correct though. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On April 13 2014 05:32 Mc wrote: As to the 'idiots' in power, they're no worse than Yanukovych and potentially better. Given the situation I think the Ukrainian government is performing alright: not giving into Russian provocation, not calling elections when emotions are high and before they can be properly setup, disarming the people that attacked EuroMaidan. Making Ukrainian the only official language was a big mistake, but they realized that and annulled the resolution. Ukrainian language has been the only official language here since our Constitution was approved, that never changed. Russian language has a regional status in some regions after the language law of 2012. The law is very poorly written and doesn't really grant anything besides that it requires anyone and anything "to support the development of regional languages" (to cut the long story short), which is as ambiguos as it sounds. The whole issue is being blown out of proportion. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On April 13 2014 07:39 Banaora wrote: I don't see myself in a position to say whether it's okay or not. Every country has interests and follows them. Russia secured its military base on Crimea with its only warm-water port. They don't have to pay for it any more and the population there seems content to be part of Russia now. I told why in my previous posts already. So from their perspective it's probably well okay. From the Ukrainian perspective it's not okay. They lost part of their country. The problem is that vital interests will always clash. That's the nature of politics. If you take the position that use of force should be accepted when vital interests are at stake than you're accepting conflict as the inevitable outcome. In some way the finality of national borders is the vital interest of most European countries. There's no good moral or historical reason for the current borders but at some point (after 1947 basically) it was agreed that there would be no more changes. It's better to deal with whatever situation was left than to fight over competing historic and other moral claims, of which there are plenty in Europe. From a European point of view Russia is a strategic threat, because of its power but mostly because of how it chooses to use it. You can frame it in moral language but the realpolitik is just as clear: we need a Russia which either embraces cooperation and respects established norms or one that is too weak to matter. Though hopefully not so weak that it loses control over its nuclear arsenal. It doesn't really matter that the US regularly ignores those same norms. First it tends not to threaten European countries and second it is considerably easier to influence. | ||
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MyrMindservant
695 Posts
On April 13 2014 08:12 Cheerio wrote: Ukrainian language has been the only official language here since our Constitution was approved, that never changed. Russian language has a regional status in some regions after the language law of 2012. The law is very poorly written and doesn't really grant anything besides that it requires anyone and anything "to support the development of regional languages" (to cut the long story short), which is as ambiguos as it sounds. The whole issue is being blown out of proportion. So much this. All those speculations on the "language issue" got very annoying at this point after being repeated so much. They even managed to convince some people outside of Ukraine and Russia that it's something important while in practice it never was a problem. I've addressed this several times before in this thread. I'll find and quote one of my posts about it. Edit: Here it is: Ukrainian is the only official language in Ukraine. This is written in our constitution and was present there since we adopted it in 1996. And everything was fine, people still used Russian in all parts of Ukraine without a problem. In 2012, previous government decided to pass a law that would give Russian language a status of regional. Basically it would allow some regions to use Russian as official even though this contradicts our constitution. Practically, that law had very little impact because Russian was already used everywhere in those regions. Less than a week ago, parliament had a vote and that law was properly canceled as unconstitutional. Now, many forces are exaggerating this fact and making various scary stories even though we were living fine without that law for more than 16 years. Even though Russian doesn't have the status of official language, it has never stopped people from using it in official situations, like government and courts. It is one of the many norms in Ukraine that aren't enforced or enforced very loosely. That law was only pushed through by the previous government to increase its ratings among the pro-russian crowd. And in practice its cancellation hardly changes anything, just like when it was adopted. All these debates about the language issue are full of speculation, some parties are simply using it as an another instrument of propaganda. As an additional note: And even that cancellation of the Language Law was vetoed by the acting president to avoid further escalation and speculations. Ukrainian parliament has also created special commission to prepare proper language law. There's really zero reasons to still bring this issue. | ||
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