As a U.S. citizen you know very well that your country also does things that are deemed not okay by other countries or citizens, but the U.S. says it defends its vital interests and they are okay from U.S. perspective.
What land did we steal doing these things that were deemed not okay by other countries?
What fake elections did we set up?
What unidentified soldiers (uniforms aren't enough you have to have markings or it's kind of illegal) did we send in beforehand to create a fake 'protester movement' to take stuff over before the helicopters started flying over?
When the government of a certain country we very recently fought a big war in said okay we decided we don't want you around at all anymore did we leave or create some fake need to protect minorities and take over?
And on that last one Ukraine didn't even tell Russia they didn't want the Russian military in Ukraine anymore and that had not even the remotest possibility of becoming Ukrainian policy...
US sure does things lots of people don't like but there fundamental and important differences between how the US acts and how the Russians act. When we say we want to help people we really do try to help them and many of our actions show it, it's not all just some cynical ploy. Russia says it's in Russia's vital interests and here's what Russia is going to do to show Russia is doing the right thing and then doesn't deliver.
On April 13 2014 04:47 Banaora wrote: There is so many mistakes when dealing with this situation. I'm just buffled.
In my opinion voting in Ukraine comes too late. Russians knew why they were speeding up the voting on Crimea.
Then to let people from Svoboda into the government who had nothing better to do than try to get rid of Russian as official language - thus giving Russia a chance to start their propaganda. Then officially give Berkut all the fault for Maidan shootings when someone from the prosecution team talks on German television that also shots were fired from a hotel where people from the right sector and svoboda were staying. The general prosecutor being from svoboda putting this under the carpet.
Now police stations in eastern Ukraine get raided. Gee, what exactly is the police doing there, that their police stations get raided?
Then the breakup of Berkut so Ukraine has no special forces any more. Who is going to deal with this situation now? If the government in Kiev had real influence in eastern Ukraine stuff like this would not be happening.
Russia is taking advantage of this situation. Not because it's evil or anything but because they look after their interest in the area. And the "West" let's these idiots into power and seemingly supports them.
As to the 'idiots' in power, they're no worse than Yanukovych and potentially better. Given the situation I think the Ukrainian government is performing alright: not giving into Russian provocation, not calling elections when emotions are high and before they can be properly setup, disarming the people that attacked EuroMaidan. Making Ukrainian the only official language was a big mistake, but they realized that and annulled the resolution.
Ukrainian language has been the only official language here since our Constitution was approved, that never changed. Russian language has a regional status in some regions after the language law of 2012. The law is very poorly written and doesn't really grant anything besides that it requires anyone and anything "to support the development of regional languages" (to cut the long story short), which is as ambiguos as it sounds. The whole issue is being blown out of proportion.
So much this. All those speculations on the "language issue" got very annoying at this point after being repeated so much. They even managed to convince some people outside of Ukraine and Russia that it's something important while in practice it never was a problem.
I've addressed this several times before in this thread. I'll find and quote one of my posts about it. Edit: Here it is:
Ukrainian is the only official language in Ukraine. This is written in our constitution and was present there since we adopted it in 1996. And everything was fine, people still used Russian in all parts of Ukraine without a problem. In 2012, previous government decided to pass a law that would give Russian language a status of regional. Basically it would allow some regions to use Russian as official even though this contradicts our constitution. Practically, that law had very little impact because Russian was already used everywhere in those regions.
Less than a week ago, parliament had a vote and that law was properly canceled as unconstitutional. Now, many forces are exaggerating this fact and making various scary stories even though we were living fine without that law for more than 16 years.
Even though Russian doesn't have the status of official language, it has never stopped people from using it in official situations, like government and courts. It is one of the many norms in Ukraine that aren't enforced or enforced very loosely. That law was only pushed through by the previous government to increase its ratings among the pro-russian crowd. And in practice its cancellation hardly changes anything, just like when it was adopted. All these debates about the language issue are full of speculation, some parties are simply using it as an another instrument of propaganda.
As an additional note: And even that cancellation of the Language Law was vetoed by the acting president to avoid further escalation and speculations. Ukrainian parliament has also created special commission to prepare proper language law. There's really zero reasons to still bring this issue.
I think you looking at it the wrong way. Granted I don't know a lot about this language law, but let's assume Cheerio is right and it is a silly law and should be changed. Don't you think the timing of trying to change it, is beyond idiotic. The president whose political base was mostly Russian-Ukrainians just got overthrown, Russian TV is blasting the images of right sector and Svoboda saying Fashists are in power now. And what is one the first things the new government tries to do? Get rid of that silly language law. You'd think, they would have better things to do, when the country goes through such a dramatic change. I think its a safe assumption that most of the Russian-Ukrainians didn't see that action as the government changing a silly language law, but an attack on who they are and their Russian identity. I know it wasn't signed into law, but the action of trying to pass it was dumb enough. Anyway, in my opinion the new government showed gross incompetence with that action, and just helped fuel Russian propaganda.
Yeah kukarachaa, exactly the point I wanted to make. You explained it better than I did.
@DeepElem: Do you really want me to bring up examples now? I think this would only derail this thread so I will not do it. Just one thing, I got to experience american hospitality first hand and you guys are great. Yet your government does stuff I don't always agree with.
As a U.S. citizen you know very well that your country also does things that are deemed not okay by other countries or citizens, but the U.S. says it defends its vital interests and they are okay from U.S. perspective.
What land did we steal doing these things that were deemed not okay by other countries?
What fake elections did we set up?
What unidentified soldiers (uniforms aren't enough you have to have markings or it's kind of illegal) did we send in beforehand to create a fake 'protester movement' to take stuff over before the helicopters started flying over?
When the government of a certain country we very recently fought a big war in said okay we decided we don't want you around at all anymore did we leave or create some fake need to protect minorities and take over?
And on that last one Ukraine didn't even tell Russia they didn't want the Russian military in Ukraine anymore and that had not even the remotest possibility of becoming Ukrainian policy...
US sure does things lots of people don't like but there fundamental and important differences between how the US acts and how the Russians act. When we say we want to help people we really do try to help them and many of our actions show it, it's not all just some cynical ploy. Russia says it's in Russia's vital interests and here's what Russia is going to do to show Russia is doing the right thing and then doesn't deliver.
On April 13 2014 05:32 Mc wrote: Russia is taking advantage of this situation. Not because it's evil or anything but because they look after their interest in the area. And the "West" let's these idiots into power and seemingly supports them Are you saying that what Russia is doing is 'OK'? Most people in E. Ukraine don't want to join Russia. Escalating the crisis will lead to deaths, escalating the crisis will break families apart (tighten borders, possible land-grab). E. Ukraine will provide no economical benefits to Russia. So in my opinion it's not 'OK'. It's wrong, you could even say 'evil' depending on your interpretation of the word 'evil'
But you seem to take a nihilistic view point on things. It's not wrong, if it's in your own interest. So how is destabilizing E. Ukraine in Russia's interest? Clearly, it won't provide economically, and will actually lead to worse business w/ Europe and Europe to seek ways to reduce energy dependency. Thus it will be economically bad. The only 'interest' here is pride.
As to the 'idiots' in power, they're no worse than Yanukovych and potentially better. Given the situation I think the Ukrainian government is performing alright: not giving into Russian provocation, not calling elections when emotions are high and before they can be properly setup, disarming the people that attacked EuroMaidan. Making Ukrainian the only official language was a big mistake, but they realized that and annulled the resolution.
And how are they putting more 'oil into the fire'? That's what Russia is doing... You are accusing Ukraine of being both passive and aggressive??
I don't see myself in a position to say whether it's okay or not. Every country has interests and follows them. Russia secured its military base on Crimea with its only warm-water port. They don't have to pay for it any more and the population there seems content to be part of Russia now. I told why in my previous posts already. So from their perspective it's probably well okay. From the Ukrainian perspective it's not okay. They lost part of their country.
As a U.S. citizen you know very well that your country also does things that are deemed not okay by other countries or citizens, but the U.S. says it defends its vital interests and they are okay from U.S. perspective.
I don't know whether most people in eastern Ukraine don't want to join Russia. I think you are right, but things could change. So I don't know. Lots of people there are working in Russia because they earn more money there. They watch Russian TV. They have relative in Russia and vice versa. The ties are pretty strong.
Russia's primary interest in my opinion is to secure that Ukraine will never become a NATO member. I think if this cannot be secured by talks Russia might invade into eastern Ukraine and secure a buffer zone from its border this way.
Again it's your opinion they are not worse than Yanukovich. In my opinion they are really bad and I listed some of their mistakes already. Mistakes you should not make considering how volatile the situation is. How can you say they are performing all right when they seem to wait until shit happens instead of being pro-active? They delt terribly with the Crimean situation. It feels they have no concept dealing with the problems in eastern Ukraine.
Federation is not a bad idea if it helps to secure the integrity of the country. You don't wait until Russia demands this. You offer it yourself and determine the agenda. Okay maybe this is asking too much given they are thrown together and not elected. Btw do you really think things will have cooled down until the end of May when the elections will take place? I think the opposite. Hope you are correct though.
I wouldn't say things are likely to cool down by the end of May, but it gives time for discussion or thinking over their priorities. I think people will make a more rational decision then after just getting off the street at EuroMaidan for example (where more people might vote for nationalists). I'm not sure when exactly the date was set- was it before the invasion of Crimea or after?
I am defending the Ukrainian government because I think restraint is wise here. I don't see why you think they have done such a terrible job. Yes, you mentioned allowing nationalists into government (imo it's temporary appeasement for stability), the language issue (not as big as media suggests, but clearly horrible timing), and you know my opinion on early elections.
How did they do such a horrible job in Crimea? The transitional government was barely formed and Russian troops start invading and taking over Crimea. Where they supposed to send in their own troops? Send Putin flowers? Russia is a big aggressive country, and rather then escalating the conflict they played the role of the innocent sheep. That role gave the West no excuse like "we can't chose sides- this is a two way conflict". Georgia was deemed as a participant (not victim) in the Georgia-Russia war, and Georgia got nothing from the West. Staying neutral and passive forces the West to 'deal' with Russia.
It seems you're blaming the government for what is happening in Ukraine (Crimea, E.Ukraine): "they delt terribly with the Crimean situation" Do you think losing Crimea was Ukraine's fault? Do you think they could have stopped Russian annexation? Do you think sending military into E. Ukraine will protect it from Russia, or provoke Russia?
Finally your point on NATO doesn't hold. The farther Russia agitates Ukraine, the more likely it will want to join NATO. Was there any discussion of joining NATO before Crimean invasion? If Russia had just left Ukraine alone after EuroMaidan would anybody be pushing for NATO in Ukraine? Regardless NATO isn't too high on letting Ukraine join.
As a U.S. citizen you know very well that your country also does things that are deemed not okay by other countries or citizens, but the U.S. says it defends its vital interests and they are okay from U.S. perspective.
What land did we steal doing these things that were deemed not okay by other countries?
What fake elections did we set up?
What unidentified soldiers (uniforms aren't enough you have to have markings or it's kind of illegal) did we send in beforehand to create a fake 'protester movement' to take stuff over before the helicopters started flying over?
When the government of a certain country we very recently fought a big war in said okay we decided we don't want you around at all anymore did we leave or create some fake need to protect minorities and take over?
And on that last one Ukraine didn't even tell Russia they didn't want the Russian military in Ukraine anymore and that had not even the remotest possibility of becoming Ukrainian policy...
US sure does things lots of people don't like but there fundamental and important differences between how the US acts and how the Russians act. When we say we want to help people we really do try to help them and many of our actions show it, it's not all just some cynical ploy. Russia says it's in Russia's vital interests and here's what Russia is going to do to show Russia is doing the right thing and then doesn't deliver.
Nunez, please check your sources. That's not an `article', it's Pando Daily. The author, Mark Ames, is not a serious journalist. He publishes his own `newspaper' called `The eXile' which is a Moscow based newspaper. He also writes to a whole slew on alternative newspapers. + Show Spoiler [Here's an excerpt from one] +
[Writing about Russia's economic downturn at the beginning of the 90's]The problem goes much deeper than Milton Friedman's "rule of law" fetish. "Rule of law" is just another red herring diversion to provide cover for continued oligarchy plunder, failure and barbarism. The problem is systemic, and more importantly, ideological. We still operate under the same neoliberal/libertarian major premises we inherited from the Hayek-Mises-Friedman era, an ideology that considers notions like "the public good" to be quaint delusions at best—as opposed to today's still-dominant, still-standing foundational ideology, which says that freedom equals the ruthless pursuit of individual self-interest, the unlimited acquisition of private property and wealth, framed within a cold, dystopian "rule of law."
The guy quoted in the beginning, Mark Weisbrot, works for another fake think tank, CEPR, connected to shady money (it's not to be confused with the legit organization by the same name in London). Weisbrot is mostly famous for publishing articles with bogus methodology praising countries like Venezuela for their economic strength...
But the funniest thing, the article you linked isn't even about USAID in Ukraine. Here's the actual article - What this article fundamentally amounts to is a lot of speculation as to what some tweets of Pierre Omidyar actually meant. The article has been `updated' with comments from the author saying that the article's construal is baseless. Which probably explains why the article has not been discussed in any mainstream media outlet. This contrasts starkly with other USAID scandals such as, for example, the Cuban `twitter' fiasco, where there is actual evidence that there was wrongdoing and, consequently, it has received widespread coverage from AP, Washington Post, etc.
On April 13 2014 04:47 Banaora wrote: There is so many mistakes when dealing with this situation. I'm just buffled.
In my opinion voting in Ukraine comes too late. Russians knew why they were speeding up the voting on Crimea.
Then to let people from Svoboda into the government who had nothing better to do than try to get rid of Russian as official language - thus giving Russia a chance to start their propaganda. Then officially give Berkut all the fault for Maidan shootings when someone from the prosecution team talks on German television that also shots were fired from a hotel where people from the right sector and svoboda were staying. The general prosecutor being from svoboda putting this under the carpet.
Now police stations in eastern Ukraine get raided. Gee, what exactly is the police doing there, that their police stations get raided?
Then the breakup of Berkut so Ukraine has no special forces any more. Who is going to deal with this situation now? If the government in Kiev had real influence in eastern Ukraine stuff like this would not be happening.
Russia is taking advantage of this situation. Not because it's evil or anything but because they look after their interest in the area. And the "West" let's these idiots into power and seemingly supports them.
As to the 'idiots' in power, they're no worse than Yanukovych and potentially better. Given the situation I think the Ukrainian government is performing alright: not giving into Russian provocation, not calling elections when emotions are high and before they can be properly setup, disarming the people that attacked EuroMaidan. Making Ukrainian the only official language was a big mistake, but they realized that and annulled the resolution.
Ukrainian language has been the only official language here since our Constitution was approved, that never changed. Russian language has a regional status in some regions after the language law of 2012. The law is very poorly written and doesn't really grant anything besides that it requires anyone and anything "to support the development of regional languages" (to cut the long story short), which is as ambiguos as it sounds. The whole issue is being blown out of proportion.
So much this. All those speculations on the "language issue" got very annoying at this point after being repeated so much. They even managed to convince some people outside of Ukraine and Russia that it's something important while in practice it never was a problem.
I've addressed this several times before in this thread. I'll find and quote one of my posts about it. Edit: Here it is:
Ukrainian is the only official language in Ukraine. This is written in our constitution and was present there since we adopted it in 1996. And everything was fine, people still used Russian in all parts of Ukraine without a problem. In 2012, previous government decided to pass a law that would give Russian language a status of regional. Basically it would allow some regions to use Russian as official even though this contradicts our constitution. Practically, that law had very little impact because Russian was already used everywhere in those regions.
Less than a week ago, parliament had a vote and that law was properly canceled as unconstitutional. Now, many forces are exaggerating this fact and making various scary stories even though we were living fine without that law for more than 16 years.
Even though Russian doesn't have the status of official language, it has never stopped people from using it in official situations, like government and courts. It is one of the many norms in Ukraine that aren't enforced or enforced very loosely. That law was only pushed through by the previous government to increase its ratings among the pro-russian crowd. And in practice its cancellation hardly changes anything, just like when it was adopted. All these debates about the language issue are full of speculation, some parties are simply using it as an another instrument of propaganda.
As an additional note: And even that cancellation of the Language Law was vetoed by the acting president to avoid further escalation and speculations. Ukrainian parliament has also created special commission to prepare proper language law. There's really zero reasons to still bring this issue.
I think you looking at it the wrong way. Granted I don't know a lot about this language law, but let's assume Cheerio is right and it is a silly law and should be changed. Don't you think the timing of trying to change it, is beyond idiotic. The president whose political base was mostly Russian-Ukrainians just got overthrown, Russian TV is blasting the images of right sector and Svoboda saying Fashists are in power now. And what is one the first things the new government tries to do? Get rid of that silly language law. You'd think, they would have better things to do, when the country goes through such a dramatic change. I think its a safe assumption that most of the Russian-Ukrainians didn't see that action as the government changing a silly language law, but an attack on who they are and their Russian identity. I know it wasn't signed into law, but the action of trying to pass it was dumb enough. Anyway, in my opinion the new government showed gross incompetence with that action, and just helped fuel Russian propaganda.
the new government did nothing wrong. It was old Parliament's decision, which was elected back in 2012, and then the decision got scrapped by the new government.
The active stage of antiterroristic campaign is being held in Eastern Ukraine since 9.00 local time.
Slavyansk has been the major fighting scene. At least one police officer was shot dead. There is unconfirmed information that major administrative buildings have been released. Edit: this was false information.
In Krasnyy Liman the locals didn't let "green men" to attack the local police department.
An attack on Enakievo police department was held, but it was repelled. City council is supposedly held by separatists.
Mariupol city council has been captured by separatists.
Police department in Kramatorsk has been captured by armed "green men" yesterday. The building was under gunfire for a few hours.
Also separatists are destroying (or damaging) cellular network towers around the towns they actively operate in.
in an alternate universe david elected to let a shit flinging primate fight against goliath in his stead and lost handily, mirrored in this universe by ghanburgs tragicomical hatchet jobs.
@ghan how did you manage to miscronstrue a post containing one sentence?
the article you posted is about omidyar funelling money into ukraine along with usaid, not tweets.
" One killed as Ukrainian forces launch 'anti-terrorist' operation
Residents in Slaviansk told to stay indoors and keep away from windows as government announces 'anti-terrorist' operation
A group of up to a 100 civilians, many of them elderly women, stood in front of the building, chanting messages of solidarity to the protesters inside, including "Referendum!" "
I'm sure the counter intervention will be the pretext for Putin to attack. I truly hope the US and EU will be extremely hard on Putin and Russia. Russia's economy can be shut down if they mobilize and imo they will have to.
Events in Harkiv. Pro-Russian activists (identified by black-brown ribbons) attacked local Euromaidan activists after their meeting was drawing to an end and their numbers were scarce. Attackers had bats and used stun granades. The following video shows some of the action after the main event.
On April 13 2014 21:18 Acertos wrote: " One killed as Ukrainian forces launch 'anti-terrorist' operation
Residents in Slaviansk told to stay indoors and keep away from windows as government announces 'anti-terrorist' operation
A group of up to a 100 civilians, many of them elderly women, stood in front of the building, chanting messages of solidarity to the protesters inside, including "Referendum!" "
I'm sure the counter intervention will be the pretext for Putin to attack. I truly hope the US and EU will be extremely hard on Putin and Russia. Russia's economy can be shut down if they mobilize and imo they will have to.
Man, sure is telling when you read a post about little old women chanting for solidarity (with Russia) in one post, and then the one below it you see little old women with pro-Russian pins kicking people (including other old women) who are on the ground bleeding from their heads from the beating the just got from pro-Russian protesters.
Also:
The link when translated shows a list of names of recruiters, and offers $500 USD to protest near buildings.
On April 13 2014 21:18 Acertos wrote: " One killed as Ukrainian forces launch 'anti-terrorist' operation
Residents in Slaviansk told to stay indoors and keep away from windows as government announces 'anti-terrorist' operation
A group of up to a 100 civilians, many of them elderly women, stood in front of the building, chanting messages of solidarity to the protesters inside, including "Referendum!" "
I'm sure the counter intervention will be the pretext for Putin to attack. I truly hope the US and EU will be extremely hard on Putin and Russia. Russia's economy can be shut down if they mobilize and imo they will have to.
The link when translated shows a list of names of recruiters, and offers $500 USD to protest near buildings.
not to protest, but to actively assault the building.
A source in the Ukrainian parliament has told the Russian Interfax news agency that CIA's Director John Brennan has recently visited Ukraine's capital Kiev and had several meetings with representatives of Ukraine's power-wielding agencies.
The person who said this to Interfax in a phone talk added that John Brennan came to Ukraine not under his real name. According to some yet unconfirmed information, the decision to suppress protesters in Slavyansk, a city in Ukraine's east, with force was advised to Ukraine's authorities by Brennan. However, Interfax does not have any confirmation from any official sources that this is really so.
Finally they've started to clean shit up. Once a few armed bandits get shelled the situation will start to change. It was logistically impossible for this new government to resolve the situation without casualties in a "democratic" manner, especially given the shitty neighbor stirring it up. Hopefully now seeing a few dead bodies around, a 500$ enticement will be a lot less less appealing.
Generally the strategy looks like the following: a small but heavily armed group captures some local police department, the primary demand is that all the weapons are put down, then those (and others in the seized arsenal) are distributed among local separatists and the group moves to another town.
EPT![[image loading]](http://echo.msk.ru/files/1162784.jpg?1397373086)
