On February 20 2014 01:59 hitthat wrote: Few more wasted, and it all turn into less about politics and more about retaliation...
I'm sure if anyone on this forum got a posse together and attacked their local military base, or police station, or secret service office, I highly doubt you or the people with you wouldn't get shot. Of course this has nothing to do with politics. In any serious country violent full scale rioting is met with violence, you don't let 20,000 people hold a country of 40-50 million hostage.
Throwing cocktais at police squads is a heavy crime, same with attacking military bases and governmental buildings, by the laws, a police officer may shoot directly on he's attacker, when he's life is indanger, how many riots was shot during 3 months of striking? And some of them dare to say about anti-civil illegal actions from Berkut's side, they don't even think how many ppl would be already dead if Police could follow the laws clearly, without any regrets. So basicly and attempt of throwing a cocktail is death for riot as result.
Yesterday we had a news, when a young riot guy died under the water canon vehicle, he was trying to throw a cocktail inside the cab of the truck, but suddenly he slipped on cobblestone, and was smashed by the truck, although a truck driver could stop, he didn't. I tryed to imagine what would I do on the drivers place, and came to a conclusion that I also would not stop, cause two seconds ago those guy behind my vehicle was trying to kill me. Than I tryed to imagine what those young riot thought about in his last seconds of life...Well, I feel bad for him, such a loser, died for nothing, gave his life for some idiots who doesn't even have a single strong leader.
And I'm sure that if something identical could happen on the territory of EU, there could be much more victims from riots side.
Acting like barbarians eventually may cause a civil war as a worst possible result.
In EU or the West a situation like this would never happen because when a corrupt politician starts handing out government property to his dentist son who suddenly becomes a billionaire as soon as his daddy is president he would be arrested for corruption. And in country's following a parliamentary system when large scale political protests erupt the natural reaction of the government is to call an election to demonstrate that you actually have the democratic majority instead of calling out police officers from only one specific region that has benefited disproportional from a corrupt president and thus has a stake in keeping the money coming.
Army Chief of Staff is fired because he refuses to order tanks into Kiev. Yanukovich for now must only rely on his own Eastern Ukrainian police forces who so far have been incapable of clearing Kiev.
On February 20 2014 01:59 hitthat wrote: Few more wasted, and it all turn into less about politics and more about retaliation...
I'm sure if anyone on this forum got a posse together and attacked their local military base, or police station, or secret service office, I highly doubt you or the people with you wouldn't get shot. Of course this has nothing to do with politics. In any serious country violent full scale rioting is met with violence, you don't let 20,000 people hold a country of 40-50 million hostage.
Throwing cocktais at police squads is a heavy crime, same with attacking military bases and governmental buildings, by the laws, a police officer may shoot directly on he's attacker, when he's life is indanger, how many riots was shot during 3 months of striking? And some of them dare to say about anti-civil illegal actions from Berkut's side, they don't even think how many ppl would be already dead if Police could follow the laws clearly, without any regrets. So basicly and attempt of throwing a cocktail is death for riot as result.
Yesterday we had a news, when a young riot guy died under the water canon vehicle, he was trying to throw a cocktail inside the cab of the truck, but suddenly he slipped on cobblestone, and was smashed by the truck, although a truck driver could stop, he didn't. I tryed to imagine what would I do on the drivers place, and came to a conclusion that I also would not stop, cause two seconds ago those guy behind my vehicle was trying to kill me. Than I tryed to imagine what those young riot thought about in his last seconds of life...Well, I feel bad for him, such a loser, died for nothing, gave his life for some idiots who doesn't even have a single strong leader.
And I'm sure that if something identical could happen on the territory of EU, there could be much more victims from riots side.
Acting like barbarians eventually may cause a civil war as a worst possible result.
In EU or the West a situation like this would never happen because when a corrupt politician starts handing out government property to his dentist son who suddenly becomes a billionaire as soon as his daddy is president he would be arrested for corruption. And in country's following a parliamentary system when large scale political protests erupt the natural reaction of the government is to call an election to demonstrate that you actually have the democratic majority instead of calling out police officers from only one specific region that has benefited disproportional from a corrupt president and thus has a stake in keeping the money coming.
Parliamentary system is definetely what I will support, a single question comes to my mind, how can it be done? I also thing, that every corrupted layer of political machine in our country must be in jail.
On February 20 2014 01:59 hitthat wrote: Few more wasted, and it all turn into less about politics and more about retaliation...
I'm sure if anyone on this forum got a posse together and attacked their local military base, or police station, or secret service office, I highly doubt you or the people with you wouldn't get shot. Of course this has nothing to do with politics. In any serious country violent full scale rioting is met with violence, you don't let 20,000 people hold a country of 40-50 million hostage.
Throwing cocktais at police squads is a heavy crime, same with attacking military bases and governmental buildings, by the laws, a police officer may shoot directly on he's attacker, when he's life is indanger, how many riots was shot during 3 months of striking? And some of them dare to say about anti-civil illegal actions from Berkut's side, they don't even think how many ppl would be already dead if Police could follow the laws clearly, without any regrets. So basicly and attempt of throwing a cocktail is death for riot as result.
Yesterday we had a news, when a young riot guy died under the water canon vehicle, he was trying to throw a cocktail inside the cab of the truck, but suddenly he slipped on cobblestone, and was smashed by the truck, although a truck driver could stop, he didn't. I tryed to imagine what would I do on the drivers place, and came to a conclusion that I also would not stop, cause two seconds ago those guy behind my vehicle was trying to kill me. Than I tryed to imagine what those young riot thought about in his last seconds of life...Well, I feel bad for him, such a loser, died for nothing, gave his life for some idiots who doesn't even have a single strong leader.
And I'm sure that if something identical could happen on the territory of EU, there could be much more victims from riots side.
Acting like barbarians eventually may cause a civil war as a worst possible result.
In EU or the West a situation like this would never happen because when a corrupt politician starts handing out government property to his dentist son who suddenly becomes a billionaire as soon as his daddy is president he would be arrested for corruption. And in country's following a parliamentary system when large scale political protests erupt the natural reaction of the government is to call an election to demonstrate that you actually have the democratic majority instead of calling out police officers from only one specific region that has benefited disproportional from a corrupt president and thus has a stake in keeping the money coming.
Parliamentary system is definetely what I will support, a single question comes to my mind, how can it be done? I also thing, that every corrupted layer of political machine in our country must be in jail.
Yanukovich wanted these reforms in 2004 before he let Yushenko become president since the party of the regions would maintain power in parliament. As soon as he was elected president the presidency pressured the constitutional court to undo it so it was back to a strong presidency. He could solve this crisis by calling new elections and putting forward the return to the 2004 constitution. Of course he would lose badly in an election, which is why he would rather order Berkut in and why the Army has not joined the so called 'anti terrorist' operation yet.
Army Chief of Staff is fired because he refuses to order tanks into Kiev. Yanukovich for now must only rely on his own Eastern Ukrainian police forces who so far have been incapable of clearing Kiev.
I dont think he has to rely on his own police force tbh, i'm guessing he will name a new chief of military who is loyal to him and then things will get even worse. Tanks and soldiers is just whats missing..
On February 20 2014 01:59 hitthat wrote: Few more wasted, and it all turn into less about politics and more about retaliation...
I'm sure if anyone on this forum got a posse together and attacked their local military base, or police station, or secret service office, I highly doubt you or the people with you wouldn't get shot. Of course this has nothing to do with politics. In any serious country violent full scale rioting is met with violence, you don't let 20,000 people hold a country of 40-50 million hostage.
Throwing cocktais at police squads is a heavy crime, same with attacking military bases and governmental buildings, by the laws, a police officer may shoot directly on he's attacker, when he's life is indanger, how many riots was shot during 3 months of striking? And some of them dare to say about anti-civil illegal actions from Berkut's side, they don't even think how many ppl would be already dead if Police could follow the laws clearly, without any regrets. So basicly and attempt of throwing a cocktail is death for riot as result.
Yesterday we had a news, when a young riot guy died under the water canon vehicle, he was trying to throw a cocktail inside the cab of the truck, but suddenly he slipped on cobblestone, and was smashed by the truck, although a truck driver could stop, he didn't. I tryed to imagine what would I do on the drivers place, and came to a conclusion that I also would not stop, cause two seconds ago those guy behind my vehicle was trying to kill me. Than I tryed to imagine what those young riot thought about in his last seconds of life...Well, I feel bad for him, such a loser, died for nothing, gave his life for some idiots who doesn't even have a single strong leader.
And I'm sure that if something identical could happen on the territory of EU, there could be much more victims from riots side.
Acting like barbarians eventually may cause a civil war as a worst possible result.
In EU or the West a situation like this would never happen because when a corrupt politician starts handing out government property to his dentist son who suddenly becomes a billionaire as soon as his daddy is president he would be arrested for corruption. And in country's following a parliamentary system when large scale political protests erupt the natural reaction of the government is to call an election to demonstrate that you actually have the democratic majority instead of calling out police officers from only one specific region that has benefited disproportional from a corrupt president and thus has a stake in keeping the money coming.
Parliamentary system is definetely what I will support, a single question comes to my mind, how can it be done? I also thing, that every corrupted layer of political machine in our country must be in jail.
Yanukovich wanted these reforms in 2004 before he let Yushenko become president since the party of the regions would maintain power in parliament. As soon as he was elected president the presidency pressured the constitutional court to undo it so it was back to a strong presidency. He could solve this crisis by calling new elections and putting forward the return to the 2004 constitution. Of course he would lose badly in an election, which is why he would rather order Berkut in and why the Army has not joined the so called 'anti terrorist' operation yet.
I do remember those changes :D Eventually, Yanukovich will loose his power, the latest date is next presidental elections, which gonna be relativly soon, ofc if he manage to "survive" on his chair for now.
The official EU response from the European Commission includes:
Yet, we have also made it clear that the EU will respond to any deterioration on the ground. We therefore expect that targeted measures against those responsible for violence and use of excessive force can be agreed by our Member States as a matter of urgency, as proposed by the High Representative/Vice President
source Three of the four main institutions agree to do "something" and the fourth has been calling for it for a while. Now it is a question of who/what is getting sanctioned or if something more will happen. The shouting match with Russia will certainly intensify.
Yet, we have also made it clear that the EU will respond to any deterioration on the ground. We therefore expect that targeted measures against those responsible for violence and use of excessive force can be agreed by our Member States as a matter of urgency, as proposed by the High Representative/Vice President
source Three of the four main institutions agree to do "something" and the fourth has been calling for it for a while. Now it is a question of who/what is getting sanctioned or if something more will happen. The shouting match with Russia will certainly intensify.
Well unfortunately for the EU, the Ukrainian rich like to hide their money in Switzerland not in Europe. But maybe some of them will be annoyed that they can no longer fly out to London on a whim.
On February 20 2014 03:23 radiatoren wrote: The official EU response from the European Commission includes:
Yet, we have also made it clear that the EU will respond to any deterioration on the ground. We therefore expect that targeted measures against those responsible for violence and use of excessive force can be agreed by our Member States as a matter of urgency, as proposed by the High Representative/Vice President
source Three of the four main institutions agree to do "something" and the fourth has been calling for it for a while. Now it is a question of who/what is getting sanctioned or if something more will happen. The shouting match with Russia will certainly intensify.
Well unfortunately for the EU, the Ukrainian rich like to hide their money in Switzerland not in Europe. But maybe some of them will be annoyed that they can no longer fly out to London on a whim.
Sanctions of any kind will go nowhere fast regardless. It is a squeeze. However, Ukraine is a member of Council of Europe and can therefore get sued in European Court of Human Rights. While ECHR is pretty worthless on its own, it can be used as further leverage for harsher sanctions from EU in terms of trade and visa-restrictions. EUs methods will go nowhere fast, but it will make Ukraine even more of an economic black hole and more of a burden on Russia.
1. The captured military base in Lviv was actually accountable to the Ministry of Internal Affairs (headed by Zaharchenko), not part of the Army (Lebedev). Basically that military base was part of "internal forces", some of which were used against the protesting people. "Internal forces" are stuffed by the means of a draft.
2. The reason behind the "anti-terroristic" campaign is that it "allows" to use the army against those labeled "terrorists".
On February 20 2014 05:41 Cheerio wrote: Some clarifications.
1. The captured military base in Lviv was actually accountable to the Ministry of Internal Affairs (headed by Zaharchenko), not part of the Army (Lebedev). Basically that military base was part of "internal forces", some of which were used against the protesting people. "Internal forces" are stuffed by the means of a draft.
2. The reason behind the "anti-terroristic" campaign is that it "allows" to use the army against those labeled "terrorists".
Can Janukowitsch actually declare anything he wants as "terrorism" so he can use the army? Or do they have to vote or something in their parliament?
On February 19 2014 22:25 Cheerio wrote: In Khmelnytsky when SBU headquarters were being assaulted a woman was shot
update: the building has been set on fire. Molotovs were being thrown at the building as soon as the technical personnel had left building. There are special units officers inside.
The entrance of vehicles to Kyiv has been blocked on all major roads for most of the day. To get inside one needs some kind of emergency or to be registered locally (this information is in one's passport), but the latter is often not enough.
On February 20 2014 05:41 Cheerio wrote: Some clarifications.
1. The captured military base in Lviv was actually accountable to the Ministry of Internal Affairs (headed by Zaharchenko), not part of the Army (Lebedev). Basically that military base was part of "internal forces", some of which were used against the protesting people. "Internal forces" are stuffed by the means of a draft.
2. The reason behind the "anti-terroristic" campaign is that it "allows" to use the army against those labeled "terrorists".
Can Janukowitsch actually declare anything he wants as "terrorism" so he can use the army? Or do they have to vote or something in their parliament?
He doesn't need to vote anything. According to the Constitution the army can't be used against the population of Ukraine, they would need to change the Constitution to amend that, that's unrealistic. But clearly it doesnt say anything what they should do when some Ukrainians are also labeled terrorists.
This guy is all over the place, so desperate to play Lukashenka or one of Central Asian dictators but with a country that is too free to accept it.
If he and his idiot advisers werent all left overs from the Soviet era or his son's cronies desperate to steal as much as possible as quickly as possible he could have avoided the whole crisis in one step: Call a referendum in Ukraine on whether it should continue EU ascension talks -- and make it clear that the EU was offering nothing more to Ukraine -- or enter talks with Russia -- and make it clear that Putin in some desperate attempt to play Czar was offering 15 billion of free money he took from his state pension fund.
On February 20 2014 05:41 Cheerio wrote: Some clarifications.
1. The captured military base in Lviv was actually accountable to the Ministry of Internal Affairs (headed by Zaharchenko), not part of the Army (Lebedev). Basically that military base was part of "internal forces", some of which were used against the protesting people. "Internal forces" are stuffed by the means of a draft.
2. The reason behind the "anti-terroristic" campaign is that it "allows" to use the army against those labeled "terrorists".
Can Janukowitsch actually declare anything he wants as "terrorism" so he can use the army? Or do they have to vote or something in their parliament?
He doesn't need to vote anything. According to the Constitution the army can't be used against the population of Ukraine, they would need to change the Constitution to amend that, that's unrealistic. But clearly it doesnt say anything what they should do when some Ukrainians are also labeled terrorists.
Lets hope the army generals got enough brains in their head to not start shooting arround with tanks and resist any order that tells them to do, that wont help anyone
On February 20 2014 06:50 Cheerio wrote: Well there are some kind of negotiations most of the time. Yesterday Klichko had a talk and Yanukovich standing was that people on Euromaidan should just pick up and leave.
Yes, but apparently ( i dont know where they get their information from) this time they arent just talking while the people are fighting but they agreed to stop the fighting while looking for a solution Thats a slight improvement atleast. Though its difficult to say if anything worthwile will come out of this, Opposition wont leave and i dont think Yanukovich will back off either..
On February 20 2014 06:44 BlackCompany wrote: german newspaper (mostly trash news but their big news are almost always true) just reported they agreed to a truce and try to negotiate
On February 20 2014 05:41 Cheerio wrote: Some clarifications.
1. The captured military base in Lviv was actually accountable to the Ministry of Internal Affairs (headed by Zaharchenko), not part of the Army (Lebedev). Basically that military base was part of "internal forces", some of which were used against the protesting people. "Internal forces" are stuffed by the means of a draft.
2. The reason behind the "anti-terroristic" campaign is that it "allows" to use the army against those labeled "terrorists".
Can Janukowitsch actually declare anything he wants as "terrorism" so he can use the army? Or do they have to vote or something in their parliament?
He doesn't need to vote anything. According to the Constitution the army can't be used against the population of Ukraine, they would need to change the Constitution to amend that, that's unrealistic. But clearly it doesnt say anything what they should do when some Ukrainians are also labeled terrorists.
Lets hope the army generals got enough brains in their head to not start shooting arround with tanks and resist any order that tells them to do, that wont help anyone
I don't put my faith into the generals, there are numerous reports that those unloyal to Yanukovich had been forced into retirement. But eventually it comes down to the soldiers obeying the orders. The thing is there are dozens of thousands of people all over Ukraine willing to make a stand against Yanukovich or die in the process. I'm not sure if anyone is willing to die to keep him in power.
EPT
