On February 19 2014 18:00 Liman wrote: Here is a map of 2012 parliamentary election. It shows that Ukraine is a divided country. Pink is anti Russian,blue is pro Russian. No election will resolve that. Broad political agreement is needed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png
Potentially, our country might be divided on two, which automaticly puts western part even in more horrible financial position, cause most of heavy production and light production are situated on east :/ And it means no more dotations from west to east
Don't worry, the paradise of EU will more than make up for the country being landlocked and having no industry. The great and humble people that set fire to things on the street will come to power and no more evul dicktator. Just like Libya! Now they are eating sand instead of food and living the good life under sharia law.
edit: trust me davion, you don't want to live in the part of the country the neonazi's take over
I'm fine with dividing, it won't affect my life in wrong way, more likely it would be even better, but not all the people living in western part are neo-nazis, and yea, they deserve to live in a better country, but the ways they're trying to change it - barbarian ways, so i part away. As well as Yanukovich won't be a person I will vote for next elections, I can even hardly imagine who would it be.
Completely agree with you. Just that I didn't say everyone in that part of Ukraine is a neonazi. There were many people in western Ukraine that threw flowers at the feet of occupying soldiers in 1942, I doubt many of them were nazi's, the people leading them were, the rest were just betraying their own country and people.
Bandera lost back then. Bandera will lose again today
Sorry, I have to stop you there. You are building a case for neo-nazis being a rising part of the rioters. No western media denies that. What is contentious in that article is the alleged support from EU and USA to Svoboda.
Wow the situation in Ukraine is turning into civil war. I hope we don't get another Syria... any decent leader would at this point call for immediate elections to stop this violence. After the elections the protesters cannot complain if the current leaders still win.
On February 19 2014 19:45 -Archangel- wrote: Wow the situation in Ukraine is turning into civil war. I hope we don't get another Syria... any decent leader would at this point call for immediate elections to stop this violence. After the elections the protesters cannot complain if the current leaders still win.
Who's to say the 'proEU observers' won't accept any result where their candidate doesn't win? Whichever side wins will just say the other side rigged the elections and then the protests start all over again.
On February 19 2014 18:00 Liman wrote: Here is a map of 2012 parliamentary election. It shows that Ukraine is a divided country. Pink is anti Russian,blue is pro Russian. No election will resolve that. Broad political agreement is needed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png
Potentially, our country might be divided on two, which automaticly puts western part even in more horrible financial position, cause most of heavy production and light production are situated on east :/ And it means no more dotations from west to east
Exactly. The Western Ukraine has been donating to the Eastern while the latter has been barely paying taxes to the central budget due to the incredibly high corruption.
Corruption is high all across the country, west does not have something to sell(donate), only tourism.
1+1 provided some info that proves you wrong. It was some kind of statistics of how much an Oblast pays to the central budget and how much receives. Harkiv was paying more, but Lugansk and Donetsk had a huge negative saldo. Have fun with your allies ripping you off.
I don't wanna argue about info that cames from non-pro-governmental or pro-governmental sources, it basicly makes no sens.
On February 19 2014 07:28 Liman wrote: It is sad to see one more country and its people manipulated by western states and Russia to fight among themselves. I hope this doesn't escalate into a civil war.
neither russia nor the western states manipulated this it's bad for both sides' interests in the country
really this whole manipulated conflict conspiracy theory infantilizes people the reason what is happening in ukraine is happening is because both sides want an outcome that precludes what the other side wants and whoever wins wins for a while and so neither side will back down. this is about different ukrainians wanting different things and being willing to fight each other about it. if russia and the western states are manipulating ukrainians into wanting to side with them then it'd be just as reasonable to say ukrainians manipulated them into wanting ukrainians to take a side.
Sure call it conspiracy theory,but first you should study some history and then make conclusion. Here are couple of hints : Vietnam,Korea,Yugoslavia,middle east (all of it),Cuba (missile crisis),China (after ww2),etc,etc.
I guarantee I know far more history than you about every country you list save Yugoslavia.
On February 19 2014 09:25 Cheerio wrote: update: the military base, from which the armored vehicle (or a few of them) was trying to leave for Kyiv, has been overtaken. An agreement has been reached that the soldiers would leave the base unarmed and the arsenals would be sealed. The event has been incredibly unorganized. While some of the protesting people were trying to extinguish the fire in one of the barracks some others kept throwing molotovs at it.
Where do you get this news? No media reported this,western or Russian.
On February 19 2014 19:45 -Archangel- wrote: Wow the situation in Ukraine is turning into civil war. I hope we don't get another Syria... any decent leader would at this point call for immediate elections to stop this violence. After the elections the protesters cannot complain if the current leaders still win.
Who's to say the 'proEU observers' won't accept any result where their candidate doesn't win? Whichever side wins will just say the other side rigged the elections and then the protests start all over again.
in 2005 the Eastern Ukraine gave up Yanukovich rather peacefully. And in 2010 the Western Ukraine gave up Timoshenko peacefully as well. Clearly the situation has changed and there can be complications but there is no other way. Besides, I have provided the social poll results, there is no way Yanukovich can win.
On February 19 2014 19:45 -Archangel- wrote: Wow the situation in Ukraine is turning into civil war. I hope we don't get another Syria... any decent leader would at this point call for immediate elections to stop this violence. After the elections the protesters cannot complain if the current leaders still win.
Who's to say the 'proEU observers' won't accept any result where their candidate doesn't win? Whichever side wins will just say the other side rigged the elections and then the protests start all over again.
You bring in outside election observers. You have representative from both sides at each election spot and they count votes together. Then nobody can scream that the elections are rigged and whoever does not accept them can be rejected by the civilized world .
On February 19 2014 19:45 -Archangel- wrote: Wow the situation in Ukraine is turning into civil war. I hope we don't get another Syria... any decent leader would at this point call for immediate elections to stop this violence. After the elections the protesters cannot complain if the current leaders still win.
Who's to say the 'proEU observers' won't accept any result where their candidate doesn't win? Whichever side wins will just say the other side rigged the elections and then the protests start all over again.
You bring in outside election observers. You have representative from both sides at each election spot and they count votes together. Then nobody can scream that the elections are rigged and whoever does not accept them can be rejected by the civilized world .
its far more complicated than that, there are many ways to rig the elections besides the manual calculation process.
It's not a civil war yet, as soon as we're having stable situation on east, there will be no civil war most likely, but if agressive opposition is going to attempt to sturm eastern big cities, than country falls apart and we gonna be separated by civil war.
In Western Ukraine governmental buildings are falling one by one, including SBU headquarters, police departments, governor's and public prosecution offices, even 1 military base.
On February 19 2014 20:37 Cheerio wrote: In Western Ukraine governmental buildings are falling one by one, including SBU headquarters, police departments, governor's and public prosecution offices, even 1 military base.
On February 19 2014 20:37 Cheerio wrote: In Western Ukraine governmental buildings are falling one by one, including SBU headquarters, police departments, governor's and public prosecution offices, even 1 military base.
Genadiy Moskal, a former high ranked MVD (Ministry of Internal Affairs) and SBU (Ukrainian FSB) official, claimed there were 2 operations the Wave and the Bumerang scheduled for yesterday by MVD and SBU respectively. He claimed the opperations were supposed to be a success in 30 minutes. He also claimed the dispersion of Euromaidan was being discussed in the government all the time since the beginning of the protests. At one time a Russian antiterroristic specialist was invited to advise on the Wave and the Bumerang operations. He criticized heavily the projects and said that those who made them up were totally unprofessional. In his oppinion they would lead to heavy casualties on both sides and to unpredictable consequences.
2 police officers killed this night were following suspects who were supposedly setting Automaidan members' cars on fire in recent weaks in Kyiv. The car they were following stopped, a man came out and opened fire.
A 2 meter wall of concrete has been erected on Grushevskogo street. It is controlled by governmental forces at the moment. It looks like they are switching into a defensive mode.
EPT![[image loading]](http://news.liga.net/upload/iblock/92f/92f9ced1e1c8cfaa78fc742dacde4f64.jpg)
