EPTNice joke, putin is not going to play the west's hypocritical games anymore. Bullshit of an excuse, freedom of press, freedom of rights, freedom of self rule, you can keep all those, well as long as you become a slave to the wests interest. We have all read the same book before. Welcome to egypt, the land of democracy, just ask John Kerry about that road map.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 397
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
Nice joke, putin is not going to play the west's hypocritical games anymore. Bullshit of an excuse, freedom of press, freedom of rights, freedom of self rule, you can keep all those, well as long as you become a slave to the wests interest. We have all read the same book before. Welcome to egypt, the land of democracy, just ask John Kerry about that road map. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
Entrance in building is in fire but police protecting the building. Fire engines are blocked. Cocktails already just now being fired inside the building. Stream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/kharkov-antimaidan Those people self-declarated independence of Kharkov from Ukraine :D Idiots that calling theirselves as anti-maidan of "Kharkov defenders". | ||
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PaleMan
Russian Federation1953 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:19 sekritzzz wrote: So let me get this straight, one group of ukranians overthrow the democratically elected president(twice!) , of course wih 5billion worth of funding for promoting "democracy" and people expect the oppressed people who got their voices cut to stay quiet? Nice joke, putin is not going to play the west's hypocritical games anymore. Bullshit of an excuse, freedom of press, freedom of rights, freedom of self rule, you can keep all those, well as long as you become a slave to the wests interest. We have all read the same book before. Welcome to egypt, the land of democracy, just ask John Kerry about that road map. QFT | ||
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Greem
730 Posts
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:19 sekritzzz wrote: So let me get this straight, one group of ukranians overthrow the democratically elected president(twice!) , of course wih 5billion worth of funding for promoting "democracy" and people expect the oppressed people who got their voices cut to stay quiet? Nice joke, putin is not going to play the west's hypocritical games anymore. Bullshit of an excuse, freedom of press, freedom of rights, freedom of self rule, you can keep all those, well as long as you become a slave to the wests interest. We have all read the same book before. Welcome to egypt, the land of democracy, just ask John Kerry about that road map. Uhhhhh, 5 million dollars, eh? I've seen these numbers thrown out before. Could you give me a source? Was it economic aid or was it specifically political aid to anti-Russian elements as you seem to imply? While we're at it, how about giving me a source from countries not named Russia, Belarus, Syria, North Korea (i.e. countries were democracy functions)? It's either Russia is right, or all these media from dozens of different countries with very varying interest/politics all came to the the exact wrong conclusion, while all Russian media is right. Coincidentally, Russia media is not allowed to directly criticize Putin, are state funded (directly or inderectly), and happen to exist in a country happens to be one of the most common countries for journalists to be attacked/murdered. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:19 sekritzzz wrote:Nice joke, putin is not going to play the west's hypocritical games anymore. Bullshit of an excuse, freedom of press, freedom of rights, freedom of self rule, you can keep all those, well as long as you become a slave to the wests interest. We have all read the same book before. Welcome to egypt, the land of democracy, just ask John Kerry about that road map. Let's not push a narrative that says poor Putin got fed up by the west's evil machinations. Putin's (and his closest advisors') reaction to US imperialism was never moral outrage, it was envy. They long for the times when Russia could sort of get away with stuff the US gets away with now. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5811 Posts
On April 08 2014 04:04 Roman666 wrote: Because everyone in the world knows that Putin coerced Yanukovych into not signing the deal with EU what led to Euromaidan. Ultimately Putin is the force responsible for all the turmoil that currently is going on in Ukraine. Don't get me wrong, I am talking about current situation, the recent past (last 15-20 years) should be attributed to the native oligarchs and native crooked politicians, who were ransacking their compatriots on every occassion. To be honest, it was as much Putin's fault as it was the EU's. EU was not willing to give Ukraine even a fraction of Russia was without Ukraine swearing fealty to the EU. Russia only said it would withdraw any favorable treatment. As a stupid saying goes: you can't have a cake and eat it. | ||
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Geisterkarle
Germany3257 Posts
Actually for this their best hope could be to join Russia! Sounds crazy, but if we learned anything from Spain, Greece, ... then the "help" from the EU is something that not many people will like ... | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:25 Greem wrote: Polish reforms before joining EU reforms were enough to grow its GDP 3x of Ukraine, even though they started on the same level more or less. So what is the economical future for Ukraine ? I'm not sure its gonna recover any time soon , anyone done some research ? No one wants Ukraine in EU, EU is strugling enought on its own. ![[image loading]](http://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ukraine-gdp-per-capita-as-of-poland-gdp-per-capita-ukr-pol_chartbuilder.png?w=1024&h=576) The last 20 years were just a period of looting and idiocy that caused Ukraine to be one of the poorest countries in Europe. The only ones who are worse off are the Serbs and they literally fought a war against everyone for 10 years. The social spending has to come down because its not sustainable, they'll have to reform the legal system to make it easier to start a business and harder for the tax police to cease your assets because some local oligarch decided it, foreigners should be allowed to own Ukrainian land so Western agricultural business can come in and raise the productivity to the levels it should be at instead of being stuck on Soviet levels, Neftogaz should be abolished or handed over to Scandinavians to run because right now its just a vehicle for theft. In fact, the best reforms Ukraine could pass right now would be to invite Swedish/Norwegian retired judges to come over and be the new judicial system in Ukraine. and i would say from what i heard , which may be not true, that the quality of life is worst then in 90'. I lived there in the 90s, it is not even close to that level. We had hyper inflation, rolling electricity and water blackouts, local bosses systematically looting everything, including copper wiring in factories and so on. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:37 Geisterkarle wrote: On the contrary, the only way forward is to join societies that have rule of law, freeish press and follow rational economic decisions instead of relying wholly on oil and gas exports and one man's random whims. Economy? Looks grim I think! Actually for this their best hope could be to join Russia! Sounds crazy, but if we learned anything from Spain, Greece, ... then the "help" from the EU is something that not many people will like ... | ||
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PaleMan
Russian Federation1953 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:48 Sub40APM wrote: On the contrary, the only way forward is to join societies that have rule of law, freeish press and follow rational economic decisions there are no such societies, its only an image created in your head by powerful media | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:48 Sub40APM wrote: On the contrary, the only way forward is to join societies that have rule of law, freeish press and follow rational economic decisions instead of relying wholly on oil and gas exports and one man's random whims. Some former Soviet/communist countries are doing quite well after leaving Russia's sphere of influence. Poland, Czech Republic, the Baltic states minus Belarus, seem to be the clear frontrunners. But almost all of the countries have made progress. I actually doubt Ukraine will make much progress- I think it's going to be quite poor/inept regardless of who it 'cooperates' with. But at least siding with the West it has a chance, and maybe Russia's aggression will give it needed nudge to see that the future is in serious economic and political reform. Even if it doesn't succeed, it's clear it won't be better off under Russia's system, which is based solely on croney capitalism with access to lot's of natural resources that Ukraine doesn't have. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:54 PaleMan wrote: there are no such societies, its only an image created in your head by powerful media Yet it's still a better idea to try to move towards that ideal than to give up hope and support your local criminals against the ones who live abroad. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:58 Mc wrote: Some former Soviet/communist countries are doing quite well after leaving Russia's sphere of influence. Poland, Czech Republic, the Baltic states minus Belarus, seem to be the clear frontrunners. But almost all of the countries have made progress. I actually doubt Ukraine will make much progress- I think it's going to be quite poor/inept regardless of who it 'cooperates' with. But at least siding with the West it has a chance, and maybe Russia's aggression will give it needed nudge to see that the future is in serious economic and political reform. Even if it doesn't succeed, it's clear it won't be better off under Russia's system, which is based solely on croney capitalism with access to lot's of natural resources that Ukraine doesn't have. Well you're right in one thing, no matter who it cooperates with, if Ukraine remains corrupt and/or run by oligarchs not even hiding their steals the country is going nowhere. I and a few other believe however that cooperating with a country not that much better in these isn't going to help making such a transition. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6274 Posts
On April 08 2014 02:06 Nyxisto wrote: Not really. At least not until Putin is out of office. (http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-04-04/putin-s-rejection-of-the-west-in-writing) Russia is trying to antagonize the West. Just because Europe has arrived in the 21st century, that sadly doesn't mean everyone else has. We're probably better offf keeping Russia at bay as long as they're on the road they're on now. Sorry I should have clarified myself. I meant a Russia which is willing to go into the western direction of democracy, rule of law and so on. It's obvious by now that it will never happen with that power hungry asshole called Putin. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On April 08 2014 01:56 RvB wrote: It's such a waste since I think intense European - Russian cooperation could be very beneficial for both sides. All this bullshit powerplay is madness of people higher up iver the backs of the common people. yes, such a waste. | ||
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Acertos
France852 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:54 PaleMan wrote: there are no such societies, its only an image created in your head by powerful media Not every country is stuck in the 19th century, you should travel more. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
Also comes with a handy classification tool for Zeo, Paleman, Nunez and other critters scuttling around this thread. *** Signs that the Crimea scenario is about to be repeated: | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:29 Mc wrote: Uhhhhh, 5 million dollars, eh? I've seen these numbers thrown out before. Could you give me a source? Was it economic aid or was it specifically political aid to anti-Russian elements as you seem to imply? While we're at it, how about giving me a source from countries not named Russia, Belarus, Syria, North Korea (i.e. countries were democracy functions)? It's either Russia is right, or all these media from dozens of different countries with very varying interest/politics all came to the the exact wrong conclusion, while all Russian media is right. Coincidentally, Russia media is not allowed to directly criticize Putin, are state funded (directly or inderectly), and happen to exist in a country happens to be one of the most common countries for journalists to be attacked/murdered. i posted a us senate testimony signed neocon-succubus nuland herself earlier where she uses the number, you can go look it up. the money is used to subvert ukraine to us will and the us has clear on what their will in this case. nuland and kerry handing out cookies and getting pally pal with chief of svoboda. | ||
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