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Ukraine Crisis - Page 385

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
March 29 2014 19:34 GMT
#7681
On March 30 2014 03:59 hypercube wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2014 02:10 radiatoren wrote:
"What is democracy, but a game of brainwashed sheep? The most convincing lies are what the clones in politics goes with and they try to keep their story straight in their own mind to the point of even themself falling into the trap of empty deceit..."
- Unattributed

I would call that lack of trust in common sense disturbingly close to a complete devastation to the concept of civil rights. If people are that stupid they need a big fuehrer to lead them, if you follow my drift? Stability over rights!


Now you're judging a statement based on whether it's useful for society or not. Maybe you're much closer to the Russian (or indeed US) position than you would like to admit.

For what it's worth I don't think voters are brainwashed sheep. I think they put much more effort into challenging ideas that go against their interest, while generally uncritically accept statements that benefit them or doesn't concern them much at all.

I indeed may be, given how I poisoned that well!

Still, I do not see the self-interest as a bad thing and I definitely do not see it as an inherently bad feature. If society is made up of beer-brewers, you better have legislation to support that even if you may want to steer the society!

The uncritical acceptance of statements that doesn't concern people is a sign of a generation that needs a high level of critical thinking to separate good from bad. Some russians may be forced to accept the thought of government actively editing media to confer certain view-points, but I do not see the paranoia about propagande as a positive quality. Just not caring about what doesn't concern people much at all - like most foreign policy - is a sign of apathy and therefore a lack of concern about statements based on whether something is useful for society or not. Ultimately democracy requires a choice in policy. Choosing stability may ultimately be a lack of choice.
Repeat before me
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-29 19:58:18
March 29 2014 19:34 GMT
#7682
On March 30 2014 04:23 SilentchiLL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2014 03:52 m4ini wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:38 SilentchiLL wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:28 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:19 zeo wrote:
On March 30 2014 02:59 Cheerio wrote:
On March 30 2014 02:10 radiatoren wrote:
"What is democracy, but a game of brainwashed sheep? The most convincing lies are what the clones in politics goes with and they try to keep their story straight in their own mind to the point of even themself falling into the trap of empty deceit..."
- Unattributed

I would call that lack of trust in common sense disturbingly close to a complete devastation to the concept of civil rights. If people are that stupid they need a big fuehrer to lead them, if you follow my drift? Stability over rights!
Another issue about russians is that there is a sense of entitlement that they often have (on an international level). Entitlement to glory, power and victories. Now the democracy is about fairness and human rights. So it creates a problem: it is very difficult to sell fairness to someone who feels entitled for more.

Name one superpower or a country with nuclear weapons that doesn't act entitled. What superpower or great power anytime ever in the history of the world didn't think their way was the right way, fuck everybody else.

Human rights and fairness? Good thing fairness is whatever the strongest says is fair.

Germany after Americans helped them to achieve freedom after 90. Used to spend all their days fantasizing about taking over the world and marching around in formations. Now in just a short 20 year period they rule over Europe and are beloved world wide for their efficiency.


Wait wat
The list of countries and people contributing to the re-unificiation of Germany goes
1. David Hasselhoff
2. West Germany
3. the USSR since it failed/east Germany for the same reason
...


On March 30 2014 03:32 m4ini wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:28 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:19 zeo wrote:
On March 30 2014 02:59 Cheerio wrote:
On March 30 2014 02:10 radiatoren wrote:
"What is democracy, but a game of brainwashed sheep? The most convincing lies are what the clones in politics goes with and they try to keep their story straight in their own mind to the point of even themself falling into the trap of empty deceit..."
- Unattributed

I would call that lack of trust in common sense disturbingly close to a complete devastation to the concept of civil rights. If people are that stupid they need a big fuehrer to lead them, if you follow my drift? Stability over rights!
Another issue about russians is that there is a sense of entitlement that they often have (on an international level). Entitlement to glory, power and victories. Now the democracy is about fairness and human rights. So it creates a problem: it is very difficult to sell fairness to someone who feels entitled for more.

Name one superpower or a country with nuclear weapons that doesn't act entitled. What superpower or great power anytime ever in the history of the world didn't think their way was the right way, fuck everybody else.

Human rights and fairness? Good thing fairness is whatever the strongest says is fair.

Germany after Americans helped them to achieve freedom after 90. Used to spend all their days fantasizing about taking over the world and marching around in formations. Now in just a short 20 year period they rule over Europe and are beloved world wide for their efficiency.



We're don't have nuclear weapons though.



You think?
[image loading]

(and goose-stepping was actually a massive tactical advantage in battles when it was introduced, it help keeping the formation)


Pretty sure, that the last time i checked, we did not. Not counting foreign nuclear arsenal obviously, the "capability to eventually make one" doesn't matter in regard to the argument that was made.

Edit: obviously the Hoff is one of the biggest reasons. I even drove to the concert back in the day.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons

They are ready to be used and in our hands right now my friend.
Why does that always suprise people? I mean, we're the least likely to actually use them, but still.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/europe-s-five-undeclared-nuclear-weapons-states/17550

Show nested quote +
Germany: Nuclear Weapons Producer

Among the five “undeclared nuclear states”, “Germany remains the most heavily nuclearized country with three nuclear bases (two of which are fully operational) and may store as many as 150 [B61 bunker buster ] bombs” (Ibid). In accordance with “NATO strike plans” (mentioned above) these tactical nuclear weapons are also targeted at the Middle East.

While Germany is not categorized officially as a nuclear power, it produces nuclear warheads for the French Navy. It stockpiles nuclear warheads (made in America) and it has the capabilities of delivering nuclear weapons. Moreover, The European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company – EADS , a Franco-German-Spanish joint venture, controlled by Deutsche Aerospace and the powerful Daimler Group is Europe’s second largest military producer, supplying .France’s M51 nuclear missile.

Germany imports and deploys nuclear weapons from the US. It also produces nuclear warheads which are exported to France. Yet it is classified as a non-nuclear state.


You've got to be kidding me.

I mean, seriously. Are you the guy earlier in this thread who posted that antifa-bullshit as well?

edit:

But, let's play a game. What point are nuclear weapons, if nobody knows/think you have them, or has to speculate about them. They're a deterrent, it only works if people know you have them.

Secret nuclear capabilities are amongst the stupidest thing i've ever heard, especially if we talk about germany. People actually believing stuff like that scare me. Germany imports nuclear weapons? The NATO is allowed to deploy nuclear weapons in germany, that doesn't make Germany a nuclear power. That doesn't even mean we're importing them. It doesn't even mean that a german soldier/dude is allowed to touch them/the controls, which they are not. It would help if you read up on the non-proliferation treaty.

edit: sorry for the "tone" though, wasn't meant to be that aggressive.
On track to MA1950A.
Acertos
Profile Joined February 2012
France852 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-29 19:55:59
March 29 2014 19:55 GMT
#7683
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/29/ukraine-kerry-calls-lavrov-russia-us-talks
Lavrov called for "deep constitutional reform" in Ukraine, a sprawling country of 46 million people. "Frankly, we don't see any other way for the steady development of the Ukrainian state apart from as a federation," Lavrov said. Each region, he said, would have jurisdiction over its economy, finances, culture, language, education and "external economic and cultural connections with neighbouring countries or regions".

Haha, so for Lavrov Ukraine should become a federation? Yeah, Ukraine should become just like Russia, an hyper centralized and corrupted state calling himself a federation.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
March 29 2014 20:04 GMT
#7684
Turning Ukraine into a federation so Russia can gobble up one province after another. Really subtle move.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-29 20:29:46
March 29 2014 20:25 GMT
#7685
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/29/opinion/sierakowski-why-poland-loves-ukraine-for-now.html
he primary problem for Eastern Europe is not so much Mr. Putin’s aggression, but rather the disunity in the region’s response. Some see the occupation of Crimea as an attempt by Mr. Putin to conceal his great defeat: the loss of Ukraine. Others speak more darkly of a demonstration of strength by Russia, which may not be the last.

Nor can Eastern Europe depend on its Western allies. European weapons manufacturers, foremost among them German and French companies, are arming the Russian military, while Russia pays Europe with the money it earns from supplying gas, making Europe energy-dependent on Russia. Meanwhile European firms are signing multibillion-dollar energy contracts with the Russian energy companies Gazprom and Rosneft.

As a result, Europe, the largest economy in the world, finds itself helpless in a confrontation with a country that, in economic terms and excluding the energy sector, belongs in the global third division.

The swirl of opinions, analyses and interests can be bewildering, especially in contrast to an essentially simple calculation by Russia. Unlike the West, it values geopolitical expansion, not economic conditions. Otherwise, Russia would invest the money it earns from oil and gas in economic development, and not in its military, which according to projected spending will account for well over a quarter of the national budget by 2015.

This situation casts a dark shadow on the place where the Iron Curtain used to be. “Old Europe” is not threatened, and so it can focus on its own economic interests, while “New Europe” is reminded of the nightmares of its past. The fact that Ukrainians were willing to die in order to open the door to the European Union, which is now unwilling to bear the economic costs of a confrontation with Russia in order to protect them, is hardly comforting.


And looks like the Rotenberg brothers will get to build the new 4 billion dollar bridge between Crimea and Russia.
SilentchiLL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany1405 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-29 21:13:35
March 29 2014 21:10 GMT
#7686
On March 30 2014 04:34 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2014 04:23 SilentchiLL wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:52 m4ini wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:38 SilentchiLL wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:28 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:19 zeo wrote:
On March 30 2014 02:59 Cheerio wrote:
On March 30 2014 02:10 radiatoren wrote:
"What is democracy, but a game of brainwashed sheep? The most convincing lies are what the clones in politics goes with and they try to keep their story straight in their own mind to the point of even themself falling into the trap of empty deceit..."
- Unattributed

I would call that lack of trust in common sense disturbingly close to a complete devastation to the concept of civil rights. If people are that stupid they need a big fuehrer to lead them, if you follow my drift? Stability over rights!
Another issue about russians is that there is a sense of entitlement that they often have (on an international level). Entitlement to glory, power and victories. Now the democracy is about fairness and human rights. So it creates a problem: it is very difficult to sell fairness to someone who feels entitled for more.

Name one superpower or a country with nuclear weapons that doesn't act entitled. What superpower or great power anytime ever in the history of the world didn't think their way was the right way, fuck everybody else.

Human rights and fairness? Good thing fairness is whatever the strongest says is fair.

Germany after Americans helped them to achieve freedom after 90. Used to spend all their days fantasizing about taking over the world and marching around in formations. Now in just a short 20 year period they rule over Europe and are beloved world wide for their efficiency.


Wait wat
The list of countries and people contributing to the re-unificiation of Germany goes
1. David Hasselhoff
2. West Germany
3. the USSR since it failed/east Germany for the same reason
...


On March 30 2014 03:32 m4ini wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:28 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 30 2014 03:19 zeo wrote:
On March 30 2014 02:59 Cheerio wrote:
On March 30 2014 02:10 radiatoren wrote:
"What is democracy, but a game of brainwashed sheep? The most convincing lies are what the clones in politics goes with and they try to keep their story straight in their own mind to the point of even themself falling into the trap of empty deceit..."
- Unattributed

I would call that lack of trust in common sense disturbingly close to a complete devastation to the concept of civil rights. If people are that stupid they need a big fuehrer to lead them, if you follow my drift? Stability over rights!
Another issue about russians is that there is a sense of entitlement that they often have (on an international level). Entitlement to glory, power and victories. Now the democracy is about fairness and human rights. So it creates a problem: it is very difficult to sell fairness to someone who feels entitled for more.

Name one superpower or a country with nuclear weapons that doesn't act entitled. What superpower or great power anytime ever in the history of the world didn't think their way was the right way, fuck everybody else.

Human rights and fairness? Good thing fairness is whatever the strongest says is fair.

Germany after Americans helped them to achieve freedom after 90. Used to spend all their days fantasizing about taking over the world and marching around in formations. Now in just a short 20 year period they rule over Europe and are beloved world wide for their efficiency.



We're don't have nuclear weapons though.



You think?
[image loading]

(and goose-stepping was actually a massive tactical advantage in battles when it was introduced, it help keeping the formation)


Pretty sure, that the last time i checked, we did not. Not counting foreign nuclear arsenal obviously, the "capability to eventually make one" doesn't matter in regard to the argument that was made.

Edit: obviously the Hoff is one of the biggest reasons. I even drove to the concert back in the day.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons

They are ready to be used and in our hands right now my friend.
Why does that always suprise people? I mean, we're the least likely to actually use them, but still.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/europe-s-five-undeclared-nuclear-weapons-states/17550

Germany: Nuclear Weapons Producer

Among the five “undeclared nuclear states”, “Germany remains the most heavily nuclearized country with three nuclear bases (two of which are fully operational) and may store as many as 150 [B61 bunker buster ] bombs” (Ibid). In accordance with “NATO strike plans” (mentioned above) these tactical nuclear weapons are also targeted at the Middle East.

While Germany is not categorized officially as a nuclear power, it produces nuclear warheads for the French Navy. It stockpiles nuclear warheads (made in America) and it has the capabilities of delivering nuclear weapons. Moreover, The European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company – EADS , a Franco-German-Spanish joint venture, controlled by Deutsche Aerospace and the powerful Daimler Group is Europe’s second largest military producer, supplying .France’s M51 nuclear missile.

Germany imports and deploys nuclear weapons from the US. It also produces nuclear warheads which are exported to France. Yet it is classified as a non-nuclear state.


You've got to be kidding me.

I mean, seriously. Are you the guy earlier in this thread who posted that antifa-bullshit as well?


No, why are you so angry at that guy?


But, let's play a game. What point are nuclear weapons, if nobody knows/think you have them, or has to speculate about them. They're a deterrent, it only works if people know you have them.


So you really think Putin/China doesn't know that Germany has nuclear weapons when Putin even used to be KGB agent?
Sorry but that's just ridiculous.


Secret nuclear capabilities are amongst the stupidest thing i've ever heard, especially if we talk about germany. People actually believing stuff like that scare me. Germany imports nuclear weapons?.


They aren't a secret, you also overreact WAY too harshly over a little piece of information, jesus man.


That doesn't even mean we're importing them. It doesn't even mean that a german soldier/dude is allowed to touch them/the controls, which they are not. It would help if you read up on the non-proliferation treaty.

So there are no Germans in the NATO force of the NATO bases in Germany?
Sounds unlikely, they are also there to be able to be given to Germany whenever it should be necessary.
And let's be honest here, it won't be necessary and if it ever WILL be, what exactly stops us from seizing them? But even if we'd do that, what kind of scenario would there have to be for Germany to use Nuclear weapons in a way that the NATO disagrees with?

edit: sorry for the "tone" though, wasn't meant to be that aggressive.


Just take a breather or something before you write your next post, seriously man.
If this thread gets you so riled up maybe you should just stop posting here, that just can't be healthy.

EDIT: And I even mentioned in my last post before this one in this thread, that Germany not only doesn't need nuclear weapons but that they were even offered to us by Sarkozy, which Merkel refused.
possum, sed nolo - Real men play random. ___ "Who the fuck is Kyle?!" C*****EX
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
March 29 2014 21:14 GMT
#7687
On March 30 2014 04:55 Acertos wrote:
Show nested quote +
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/29/ukraine-kerry-calls-lavrov-russia-us-talks
Lavrov called for "deep constitutional reform" in Ukraine, a sprawling country of 46 million people. "Frankly, we don't see any other way for the steady development of the Ukrainian state apart from as a federation," Lavrov said. Each region, he said, would have jurisdiction over its economy, finances, culture, language, education and "external economic and cultural connections with neighbouring countries or regions".

Haha, so for Lavrov Ukraine should become a federation? Yeah, Ukraine should become just like Russia, an hyper centralized and corrupted state calling himself a federation.


Nah, he means a real federation or rather a loose collection of semi-independent states. He's calling for the de facto partition of Ukraine.
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
March 29 2014 21:20 GMT
#7688
On March 30 2014 04:34 radiatoren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2014 03:59 hypercube wrote:
On March 30 2014 02:10 radiatoren wrote:
"What is democracy, but a game of brainwashed sheep? The most convincing lies are what the clones in politics goes with and they try to keep their story straight in their own mind to the point of even themself falling into the trap of empty deceit..."
- Unattributed

I would call that lack of trust in common sense disturbingly close to a complete devastation to the concept of civil rights. If people are that stupid they need a big fuehrer to lead them, if you follow my drift? Stability over rights!


Now you're judging a statement based on whether it's useful for society or not. Maybe you're much closer to the Russian (or indeed US) position than you would like to admit.

For what it's worth I don't think voters are brainwashed sheep. I think they put much more effort into challenging ideas that go against their interest, while generally uncritically accept statements that benefit them or doesn't concern them much at all.

The uncritical acceptance of statements that doesn't concern people is a sign of a generation that needs a high level of critical thinking to separate good from bad. Some russians may be forced to accept the thought of government actively editing media to confer certain view-points, but I do not see the paranoia about propagande as a positive quality. Just not caring about what doesn't concern people much at all - like most foreign policy - is a sign of apathy and therefore a lack of concern about statements based on whether something is useful for society or not. Ultimately democracy requires a choice in policy. Choosing stability may ultimately be a lack of choice.


What you refuse to accept that propaganda and even Putin's authoritarian rule might be the perceived self-interest of a majority of Russians. And that perception might even be correct.

Just as Yeltsin's cleptocracy was in our self-interest, so we overlooked wide-spread corruption, electoral fraud and the humanitarian disaster that comes with a collapsing economy.
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-29 22:43:52
March 29 2014 22:22 GMT
#7689
edit

nvm
On track to MA1950A.
SilentchiLL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany1405 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-29 23:13:29
March 29 2014 23:08 GMT
#7690
On March 30 2014 07:22 m4ini wrote:


Because we all can stop discussing and arguing, if we all use sources like that. In fact, we can just make them up, pretty much as they do. It's not just derailing the thread, it's arguing against something that should be so extremely obvious, that its quite the waste of time and space.



I also posted a wikipedia link and talked about the other one being dubious in my post just after the one you're focussing on.
If you would have calmed down and read a bit before losing your composure you probably would have noticed that

Show nested quote +

So you really think Putin/China doesn't know that Germany has nuclear weapons when Putin even used to be KGB agent?
Sorry but that's just ridiculous.


Putin/China (Jinping fyi) does, thank god, know what germany has and what not. Not that his KGB history has anything to do with it, since it's a pretty well known fact that US nuclear weapons (bombs btw, not missiles) are stationed in germany. On the other hand, maybe that shows the flaw in your "perspective": the DDR had huge nuclear capabilities as well, only then they were russian weapons.

Stop your agressive tone already, you just apologized for it in your last post and I'll be honest here, it got annoying really fast.
How about you tell me about my "perspective" then? The part you quoted has little to do with our nuclear capabilities, Putin's history as a KGB agent in Germany should show that he surely wouldn't forget our nuclear weapons, if you can't draw that connection yourself I'm sorry for you.
And the part about being able to seize the weapons aside my last post was mostly about Germany not even needing the nuclear weapons in their possession right now, I even mentioned that we refused the weapons offered to us by France.
And atleast explain your mentioning of the DDR (not dance dance revolution by the way (even though it's a cool game).
And were the bolded parts really necessary, especially in that manner?



They aren't a secret, you also overreact WAY too harshly over a little piece of information, jesus man.


There is no information, that's the point. You link two sources, one says "germany doesn't have nuclear weapons", and the other says "omg satellites everywhere, tinfoils pls". The nuclear bombs aren't a secret. It's also not a secret that without US permission, we can't touch them because we don't have them. They're guarded by US soldiers, the US has the activation codes. If i park my car in front of your house, to maybe at some point drive you to work/school, take my key with me and go home, do you suddenly own a BMW?

Actually the wikipedia link says:
Under NATO nuclear weapons sharing, the United States has provided nuclear weapons for Belgium,[51] Germany,[51] Italy, the Netherlands,[51] and Turkey[51] to deploy and store.[52] This involves pilots and other staff of the "non-nuclear" NATO states practicing, handling, and delivering the U.S. nuclear bombs, and adapting non-U.S. warplanes to deliver U.S. nuclear bombs. U.S. nuclear weapons were also deployed in Canada until 1984, and in Greece until 2001 for nuclear sharing purposes.[53]

Germany Büchel 52d Fighter Wing 10~20

In case you have forgotten already, I also clearly stated that they are currently in american possession, I said we could make some ourselves, or seize them if necessary (and questioned the ridiculous scenario that would be neccessary for THAT at the same time).
And let's be honest here, it won't be necessary and if it ever WILL be, what exactly stops us from seizing them? But even if we'd do that, what kind of scenario would there have to be for Germany to use Nuclear weapons in a way that the NATO disagrees with?

You're focussing way too much on the conspiracy article I posted, it was just to show that we indeed have nuclear weapons around, I talked about that directly in my next post.

On March 30 2014 04:32 SilentchiLL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2014 04:28 nunez wrote:
uh, globalreasearch? that's a confirmed conspiracy site, silentchill.


Was about to mention that I didn't check for that and that it could very well be one, but since this is only about the point of proving that we actually have some it didn't really matter that much to me, especially since there's also a wikipedia link.
Not that it actually matters though, since Germany never strived to be a nuclear power after WWII, in fact a few years ago Sarcozy even offered us some nuclear weapons, Merkel said no to them.



The nuclear bombs are stationed in a german Fliegerhorst. Under guard of US personel. In so called "WS3-Systems", should be clear enough who can and can not access them.


You mean the system from the 80s that you could get around by capturing the authorized persons and forcing them to open them for you?
Torture/drugs would be needed of course, but you may have noticed by now that the scenario was pretty ridiculous from the start and in such a scenario that would be an obvious option.


How about you research your "arguments" before you spread them, and i then take a breather.

But that wasn't an argument, nobody was arguing, I simply stated that we do have nuclear weapons around.
The only one hellbent on an argument here were you, even after I wrote myself that the second source is dubious at best.

Guess it's enough off topic.

Indeed, though since you've been quite condescending throughout your whole post I'll take my time here to tell you that rightous anger is fine, however you need to keep your tone in check, you even realized that it wasn't appropriate and it just got worse, this could have been solved pretty fast if you just would have stayed calm.
I know this will sound patronizing, but it's not ment that way, if you want to stay around TL for a longer amount of time then you either need to chill more or channel your anger in funnier and less directly agressive/insulting posts.
Afterall, if you're really here to discuss, why get angry and belittle the other person? Because that sure as hell won't help you stay on topic or convince that person, angry posters like that tend to get worse and not better with the time, so just remember to stay nice in discussions, you'll achieve more.
possum, sed nolo - Real men play random. ___ "Who the fuck is Kyle?!" C*****EX
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-29 23:44:30
March 29 2014 23:38 GMT
#7691
edit, pm
On track to MA1950A.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15361 Posts
March 29 2014 23:43 GMT
#7692
In other news, there is shit going on in Ukraine, so how about we talk about that and take Germany to PMs?
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-29 23:49:11
March 29 2014 23:44 GMT
#7693
Just did. Did you btw receive my PM about that accountproblem?

Edit

Hm, just read that crimean tatars want "ethnic and territorial autonomy" in crimea. Would that even be possible?
On track to MA1950A.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 30 2014 02:11 GMT
#7694
http://gizmodo.com/darth-vader-will-run-for-president-of-ukraine-1554484156?

While the Sith lord generally resides in a galaxy far, far away, he seems to have particular interest in Ukrainian politics. As he told RT News, "I am prepared to take responsibility for the fate of this country, if fellow citizens do me this high honor. I alone can make an empire out of a republic, to restore former glory, to return lost territories and pride for this country," Vader said.

The dark lord has the backing of the Internet Party of Ukraine, which was established in 2007 and has already filed the necessary paperwork for Vader to appear on the May 25th ballot. Vader, currently the chairman of the Internet Party, has also made the required monetary deposit of 2.5 million Ukrainian hryvnia ($225,225) required for candidacy. One assumes Emperor Palpatine is among his financial backers.

DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-30 02:46:43
March 30 2014 02:12 GMT
#7695
@deb what are you talking about? i'm referring to the free press index. the govt/media tried its heart out at censoring every one of the examples you mention btw, i'm sure you're well aware. and look at how the muppet-show view parry, lol.


free press index isn't the only way to determine the level of freedom of speech in a country as it deals with the press which is not the be all end all only way to express one's self in a country. you don't care though the fact that anyone in this country not in jail can go stand in front of the courthouse or legislature or whatever and talk about whatever he wants and come back the next day do the same thing doesn't fit into your narrative so it's cherry-picked anecdotal something or other and must not count. the same goes for his ability to put up a website or print pamphlets to hand out. or his ability to gather his friends and talk with them. or their ability to try to get more people talking with them. or their ability to go to door to door trying to get support for whatever it is they want to get support for. it goes on and on and on but it doesn't fit your narrative so obviously a comprehensive study was not done and it can be safely dismissed with a wave of the hand or its internet equivalent the one-liner.

and no the government didn't try its heart out to censor any of those examples i mentioned except the pentagon papers which resulted in one of the most important us supreme court decisions ever and that decision was against the government. if you want to claim that the government did try its heart out to censor them then provide some proof.

muppet show now that is not very nice

i take it you have given up on making your case and you're going full force on at least getting a 'thanks obama' out of it through irrelevant or misconstrued anecdotes? flamebaiting bitch, eh? that's cute.


if you didn't do things like call people members of the muppet show it would be much less cute you know

or things like dismiss what someone says without backing up why and then taunt them about it

you haven't done a single thing to disprove what i've said, you've just dismissed and mocked it like you have everything else in this thread you've replied to that you haven't agreed with. not that there is anything wrong with those two things but when that is all that is being offered it is a weak brew.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
March 30 2014 02:21 GMT
#7696
On March 30 2014 11:11 Sub40APM wrote:
http://gizmodo.com/darth-vader-will-run-for-president-of-ukraine-1554484156?

Show nested quote +
While the Sith lord generally resides in a galaxy far, far away, he seems to have particular interest in Ukrainian politics. As he told RT News, "I am prepared to take responsibility for the fate of this country, if fellow citizens do me this high honor. I alone can make an empire out of a republic, to restore former glory, to return lost territories and pride for this country," Vader said.

The dark lord has the backing of the Internet Party of Ukraine, which was established in 2007 and has already filed the necessary paperwork for Vader to appear on the May 25th ballot. Vader, currently the chairman of the Internet Party, has also made the required monetary deposit of 2.5 million Ukrainian hryvnia ($225,225) required for candidacy. One assumes Emperor Palpatine is among his financial backers.



Well, to be honest, it would be quite awesome. Not for the ukraine most likely, but for me to watch. I might even enlist as a stormtrooper.
On track to MA1950A.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 30 2014 02:35 GMT
#7697
On March 30 2014 11:21 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2014 11:11 Sub40APM wrote:
http://gizmodo.com/darth-vader-will-run-for-president-of-ukraine-1554484156?

While the Sith lord generally resides in a galaxy far, far away, he seems to have particular interest in Ukrainian politics. As he told RT News, "I am prepared to take responsibility for the fate of this country, if fellow citizens do me this high honor. I alone can make an empire out of a republic, to restore former glory, to return lost territories and pride for this country," Vader said.

The dark lord has the backing of the Internet Party of Ukraine, which was established in 2007 and has already filed the necessary paperwork for Vader to appear on the May 25th ballot. Vader, currently the chairman of the Internet Party, has also made the required monetary deposit of 2.5 million Ukrainian hryvnia ($225,225) required for candidacy. One assumes Emperor Palpatine is among his financial backers.



Well, to be honest, it would be quite awesome. Not for the ukraine most likely, but for me to watch. I might even enlist as a stormtrooper.

RT News: Flash News from Fascist occupied Kyiv, Germans volunteering to serve in Ukrainian storm troopers!
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
March 30 2014 03:00 GMT
#7698
On March 30 2014 11:35 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2014 11:21 m4ini wrote:
On March 30 2014 11:11 Sub40APM wrote:
http://gizmodo.com/darth-vader-will-run-for-president-of-ukraine-1554484156?

While the Sith lord generally resides in a galaxy far, far away, he seems to have particular interest in Ukrainian politics. As he told RT News, "I am prepared to take responsibility for the fate of this country, if fellow citizens do me this high honor. I alone can make an empire out of a republic, to restore former glory, to return lost territories and pride for this country," Vader said.

The dark lord has the backing of the Internet Party of Ukraine, which was established in 2007 and has already filed the necessary paperwork for Vader to appear on the May 25th ballot. Vader, currently the chairman of the Internet Party, has also made the required monetary deposit of 2.5 million Ukrainian hryvnia ($225,225) required for candidacy. One assumes Emperor Palpatine is among his financial backers.



Well, to be honest, it would be quite awesome. Not for the ukraine most likely, but for me to watch. I might even enlist as a stormtrooper.

RT News: Flash News from Fascist occupied Kyiv, Germans volunteering to serve in Ukrainian storm troopers!


Well that would be true then though, that's not how RT works.
On track to MA1950A.
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-30 08:12:21
March 30 2014 08:09 GMT
#7699
On March 30 2014 11:12 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Show nested quote +
@deb what are you talking about? i'm referring to the free press index. the govt/media tried its heart out at censoring every one of the examples you mention btw, i'm sure you're well aware. and look at how the muppet-show view parry, lol.


free press index isn't the only way to determine the level of freedom of speech in a country as it deals with the press which is not the be all end all only way to express one's self in a country. you don't care though the fact that anyone in this country not in jail can go stand in front of the courthouse or legislature or whatever and talk about whatever he wants and come back the next day do the same thing doesn't fit into your narrative so it's cherry-picked anecdotal something or other and must not count. the same goes for his ability to put up a website or print pamphlets to hand out. or his ability to gather his friends and talk with them. or their ability to try to get more people talking with them. or their ability to go to door to door trying to get support for whatever it is they want to get support for. it goes on and on and on but it doesn't fit your narrative so obviously a comprehensive study was not done and it can be safely dismissed with a wave of the hand or its internet equivalent the one-liner.

and no the government didn't try its heart out to censor any of those examples i mentioned except the pentagon papers which resulted in one of the most important us supreme court decisions ever and that decision was against the government. if you want to claim that the government did try its heart out to censor them then provide some proof.

muppet show now that is not very nice

Show nested quote +
i take it you have given up on making your case and you're going full force on at least getting a 'thanks obama' out of it through irrelevant or misconstrued anecdotes? flamebaiting bitch, eh? that's cute.


if you didn't do things like call people members of the muppet show it would be much less cute you know

or things like dismiss what someone says without backing up why and then taunt them about it

you haven't done a single thing to disprove what i've said, you've just dismissed and mocked it like you have everything else in this thread you've replied to that you haven't agreed with. not that there is anything wrong with those two things but when that is all that is being offered it is a weak brew.


press freedom index seems like a better indicator than your cases don't you think? muppets is pretty cute i think yes. the case you initially were making was that the us was a good example for protecting journos (relative to germany), the index shows this is not true.

since then you shifted your case to 'thanks obama', the index again and the nsa spying on dissenting journos way before obama (that index would prolly take a deep dive if you adjusted for the fact) shows this is not the case (though his persecution of whistleblowers hasn't helped). now you're attacking my perception of the us, which you are misconstruing (can't blame you).

maybe it was better back in the day but hardly relevant.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
sekritzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
1515 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-30 09:48:17
March 30 2014 09:42 GMT
#7700
On March 28 2014 01:33 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 17:52 sekritzzz wrote:
On March 27 2014 11:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Not mutually exclusive, extremism can exist without calls for violence, I can have the extremest view that "all tall people are evil violent people, who are stupid" that statement in itself isn't a call for violence against tall people and wouldn't be gagable in a public venue. But if i followed up by calling for people to kill all the tall people that would be a call for violence against them. And quite a few nations follow this, the idea that something is unpleasant isn't the same as something is violent, and the government specifically shouldn't be silencing it's people over what could be considered subjective.


In the US speech is protected even further, in the US you literally can write a book or make a speech saying we should kill all the tall people and as long as you aren't saying "do it right now" (and as long as a 'reasonable person' doesn't think you're trying to get all the tall people killed right now without directly saying it) you'll win your day in court. It will definitely go to court but you'd win in the US you have to be judged to have been inciting imminent violence for hate speech or violent speech to be bannable.



Do you even live on planet earth?


Im honestly surprised someone with internet use is making such an absurd comment. I dont know what planet you live on, but writing what your recommended in private emails which are not so private aka NSA will without a doubt get you arrested let alone making a speech or a book. Come back to planet Earth.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

That ruling is still operative.

I don't know what planet you live on but apparently it is one where you can mock people based on your own ignorance.

Show nested quote +
this legislation is aimed at silencing dissenting voices, especially bloggers. using the us as a shining example is idiotic. rich / powerful people can afford freedom of speech in it, but if you're a blogger / journy reporting on govt / coorp abuse you're shit out of luck. hence the juxtaposition of us' terrible free-press record against an entire issue of reason devoted to holocaust denial.


Mostly false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_restraint#Prior_restraint_in_the_United_States

The idea that only rich and powerful people in the US can exercise free speech is absurd.

Just as an example, how long were Occupy camps allowed to illegally exist? Hardly a gathering of the rich and powerful despite many rich and powerful people sympathizing with them and getting involved. For months and months and months they were allowed to shit up public parks and the other places they were camping, harass and intimidate local businesses and residents, have their drum circles and mic checks.

The idea that if you are reporting on "corporate abuse" you are "shit out of luck" is absurd.

Just as an example, the movie Gasland is a piece of shit full of half-truths, distortions, deceptions, and outright lies, but it was still produced and distributed free of restriction.

How many articles about BP oil spill were not allowed to be published? How many journalists were harassed by the government for publishing articles about that?

Enron?

Any of the thousands of pieces of opinion and "reporting" published daily in newspapers and magazines and on blogs on message boards on Twitter, like your quite frankly libelous link, regarding the Koch brothers?

The idea that if you are a blogger you do not have free speech protections in the US is absurd. Dick Durbin's numerous idiotic comments on the subject aside, judges including at the federal level have ruled that bloggers have the same free speech protections as everyone else.

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/17/local/la-me-ln-blogger-1st-amendment-20140117

Now if you're a journalist reporting on the Obama Administration it is a different story. So you're only mostly ignorant and only mostly saying things that are stupidly untrue. It is a disgrace the way the Obama Administration has acted towards journalists. But again, no prior restraint attempts. Not even the Obama Administration has tried to force articles to not be published. Here's a quick list of stories the government desperately did not want reported over the last ten years I remember that it did not stop from being published:

2006 Warrantless eavesdropping (NYT)
2006 Terrorist Financing Tracking Program (NYT)
2010 Multiple stories resulting from Bradley Manning leaks (NYT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, eventually almost every publication in the world concerned with politics and law)
2012-present Multiple stories resulting from Edward Snowden leaks (NYT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, eventually almost every publication in the world concerned with politics and law)

Basically if you think free speech is failing in the US then you should want the Obama Administration out of power.

Now then I hope you two have been lifted somewhat out of your lamentable ignorance caused by your preconceptions and arrogance.

I'm referring to the practical application of the law. I'm going to repost an article from 2012 by the guardian and highlight the important points, which also refers to the ohio case which grants freedom to express violent thought. This was posted the same time that movie about the prophet Muhammad enflamed the Middle East.

+ Show Spoiler +

Nothing tests one's intellectual honesty and ability to apply principles consistently more than free speech controversies. It is exceedingly easy to invoke free speech values in defense of political views you like. It is exceedingly difficult to invoke them in defense of views you loathe. But the true test for determining the authenticity of one's belief in free speech is whether one does the latter, not the former.

The anti-US protests sweeping the Muslim world have presented a perfect challenge to test the free speech convictions of both the American right and the Democratic party version of the left. Neither is faring particularly well.

Let's begin with the Democrats. On Thursday, the Obama White House called executives at Google, the parent company of YouTube, and "requested" that the company review whether the disgusting anti-Muslim film that has sparked such unrest should be removed on the ground that it violates YouTube's terms of service.

In response, free speech groups such as the ACLU and EFF expressed serious concerns about the White House's actions. While acknowledging that there was nothing legally compulsory about the White House's request (indeed, Google announced the next day they would leave the video up), the civil liberties groups nonetheless noted – correctly – that "it does make us nervous when the government throws its weight behind any requests for censorship", and that "by calling YouTube from the White House, they were sending a message no matter how much they say we don't want them to take it down; when the White House calls and asks you to review it, it sends a message and has a certain chilling effect".

Right-wing commenters loudly decried the White House's actions on free speech grounds. Some of their rhetoric was overblown (the sentiment behind the request was understandable, and they did nothing to compel its removal). But, for reasons made clear by the ACLU and EFF, these conservative objections were largely correct.

In sum, the White House has no business sticking its nose into which videos YouTube decides to publish or suppress. Corporations that depend on the US government for all sorts of vital benefits and contracts, and which are subject to its regulations and punishments, will always perceive White House "requests" as being far less optional than similar requests from random users. Nobody should want the US government insinuating itself into the determination by private internet companies about which political speech they will allow.

The White House's request to YouTube provoked almost no objections from Democrats, who – when there is a Republican president – tightly bind themselves to the ACLU and parade around as free speech crusaders. To the extent they acknowledged any of this at all, their responses ranged from indulging patently absurd pretenses (this was just a polite request from the White House: what's wrong with that?) to affirmative justification (the film is intended to cause violence and thus should be removed).

Just imagine if the Bush White House had called YouTube and "requested" that it remove anti-war videos on the ground that such videos were endangering US troops. That is hardly some fantastical hypothetical. The claim that administration critics were "emboldening the enemy" was a very common trope during the Bush era (an ugly trope that some progressives now repeat toward conservative critics of Obama). John Ashcroft infamously announced when testifying before the Senate in December 2001 that civil libertarian objections to administration policies "only aid terrorists" and "give ammunition to America's enemies".

Does anyone doubt that if the Bush White House had "requested" in the wake of 9/11 that all anti-war or anti-administration videos be "reviewed" to see if they should remain on the internet – on the not-implausible ground that they might encourage attacks on American troops or personnel – that Democrats would have little trouble seeing why it is dangerous to have the executive branch taking action to influence private internet companies to suppress political speech? The actions of the Obama White House are no less inappropriate.

Recall the so-called "request" in December 2010 from Joe Lieberman, made in his capacity as chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, that private corporations such as Amazon, Visa, MasterCard and others cut off all services to WikiLeaks, including hosting its website and allowing payments to the group. Those corporations instantly complied – how many American companies will continue with behavior which a leading senator announces is harming US national security? – and few Democrats had trouble understanding why such a "request" was so odious. It should be equally easy to see why this is the case with the Obama White House's request to Google.

Then there's the merits of the censorship case regarding this video. The claim that political speech should be suppressed because it is intended to "inspire" or "provoke" others to commit violence has been the favorite tactic of censors and free speech enemies for decades. Indeed, every single tyrant who wants to suppress political speech does so by claiming that the ideas being expressed are more than mere "political opinion": it is "incitement" to violence, they invariably claim.

In the 1950s and 1960s, southern states repeatedly attempted to impose criminal and civil liability on the NAACP by claiming, not inaccurately, that the fiery speeches of the group's leaders in defense of boycotts and protests were inspiring some of the group's members to break the law and engage in violence. But the US supreme court, in the 1972 case NAACP v Claiborne, unanimously rejected that pernicious theory, holding that there would be no meaningful free speech if speech could be proscribed on the ground that it "inspires" others to commit violence: "While the State legitimately may impose damages for the consequences of violent conduct, it may not award compensation for the consequences of nonviolent, protected activity" [my emphasis].

The court in Claiborne also noted that even "advocacy of the use of force or violence does not remove speech from the protection of the first amendment." The court there was citing its earlier decision in Brandenberg v Ohio, which had overturned the criminal conviction of a Ku Klux Klan leader who had threatened violence against political officials in a speech. The Brandenberg court explained that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force." Obviously, if the state cannot suppress speech even where it explicitly advocates violence, then it cannot suppress a video on the ground that it implicitly incites violence.

In sum, free speech is not intended to protect benign, uncontroversial, or inoffensive ideas. Those ideas do not need protection. It is intended to protect – to foster – exactly those political ideas that are most offensive, most provocative, most designed to inspire others to act in the name of its viewpoints. One could say that every significant political idea, on the right and the left, has that provocative potential. If speech can be constrained on the ground that it can inspire or provoke violence by others, then a wide range of political ideas, arguably the only ones that really matter, are easily subject to state suppression.



Other than would-be tyrants and their authoritarian followers, nobody should want that. Nobody should want the state to make and enforce lists of prohibited ideas. Even if such state action does not offend you in principle, there's a very pragmatic reason to oppose it: those who cheer when ideas they dislike are suppressed will very likely find, at some point in the future, that their ideas end up on the prohibited list, and will have little ground for objecting when it happens.

Then we come to the newfound champions of free speech on the American right. Conservatives do so love to depict themselves as victims: both in general and specifically as free speech martyrs. They particularly love to declare their rights assaulted at the hands of Muslims.

Sometimes their complaints are valid. That was true when Canada formally investigated a hateful right-wing journalist for his vile speech on the ground that it was "defamatory" of Islam, and when France did the same. It was true when Democratic city officials threatened or even acted to block zoning permits for a fast food chain on the ground that its owner expresses anti-gay views. It was true when violent protesters tried to suppress Danish cartoons about Muhammad, and it is true now with the violence (that is partially) in response to this video.

But the US and its western allies have, in the name of combating terrorism, engaged in free speech assaults aimed primarily at Muslims far more dangerous than any of those examples. And with very few exceptions, these same right-wing free speech champions have remained utterly silent, except when cheering it all on.

Last September, the justice department arrested and indicted Jubair Ahmad, a 24-year-old Pakistani legal resident living in Virginia and charged with "providing material support" to a designated terrorist organization (Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LeT)). His alleged crime? As I wrote when the indictment was announced:

He produced and uploaded a 5-minute video to YouTube featuring photographs of U.S. abuses in Abu Ghraib, video of armored trucks exploding after being hit by IEDs, prayer messages about 'jihad' from LeT's leader, and – according to the FBI's Affidavit – 'a number of terrorist logos.' That, in turn, led the FBI agent who signed the affidavit to assert that 'based on [his] training and experience, it is evident that the video … is designed as propaganda to develop support for LeT and to recruit jihadists to LeT.' The FBI also claims Ahmad spoke with the son of an LeT leader about the contents of the video and had attended an LeT camp when he was a teenager in Pakistan. For the act of uploading that single YouTube video (and for denying that he did so when asked by the FBI agents who came to his home to interrogate him), he faces 23 years in prison.

Last July, former Obama justice department official Marty Lederman highlighted the arrest of a 22-year-old former Penn State student for - in the FBI's words - "repeatedly using the Internet to promote violent jihad against Americans" by posting comments on a "jihadist" Internet forum including "a comment online that praised the [October, 2010] shootings" at the Pentagon and Marine Corps Museum and "a number of postings encouraging attacks within the United States". He also posted links to a bomb-making manual.

Regarding the part of the indictment based on "encouraging violent attacks", Lederman argued that it "does not at first glance appear to be different from the sort of advocacy of unlawful conduct that is entitled to substantial first amendment protection under the Brandenburg line of cases."

As for linking to bomb-making materials, Lederman wrote: "the first amendment generally protects the publication of publicly available information, even where there is a chance or a likelihood that one or more readers may put such information to dangerous, unlawful use." As a result, Lederman concluded, the indictment "would appear to be very vulnerable to a first amendment challenge".

Such blatant assaults on the free speech rights of Muslims in the US, and in the west generally, are common. In 2009, a Pakistani man in New York was sentenced to almost six years in federal prison for the "crime" of including a Hezbollah news channel in the cable package he offered for sale to television viewers in Brooklyn. Just this month, a British Muslim teenager, Azhar Ahmed, was convicted of the "crime" of posting a Facebook message which said: "all soldiers should die and go to hell." There is even ample evidence that the US government targeted its own citizen, Anwar al-Awlaki, for assassination without due process not based on unproven claims that he was engaged in plotting terror attacks (a claim the government made only long after it was disclosed that they were trying to kill him), but rather due to its dislike of his political and religious sermons against the US which became quite popular among Muslim youth on YouTube.


The rationale for all of this speech-based punishment aimed at Muslims is exactly the same as the one used to advocate the suppression of the anti-Islam video and other anti-Muslim speech: it goes beyond mere "speech" and is intended to incite or justify violence. Those who accept that precept to ignore or even cheer for the suppression or punishment of views they dislike, while loudly decrying it when it comes to the views they share, are not believers in free speech.

They are just rank manipulators who exploit free speech values in an attempt to ensure that only their views can be heard while the views they despise are suppressed. This, unfortunately, is the clear history of the American right, now marching so flamboyantly behind the free speech banner in order to protect hateful anti-Islam speech.

It would be genuinely nice to believe that these newfound conservative free speech champions would henceforth become consistent allies in the fight against state suppression of political opinions: not just when their own ideas are attacked, but also when those views they hate are, including those of Muslim critics of US foreign policy. Until that happens, the complete insincerity of their free speech cheerleading is manifest.


Other matters

It is just extraordinary, as I noted on Friday, that even after multiple wars and killings and invasions and occupations, the US, in the face of these anti-American protests in the Muslim world, is still stuck, oh-so-earnestly, on that eternal question: why do they hate us? That continues even as things like this happen continuously.

Along those lines, the New York Times yesterday expressed bafflement that Afghans would burn an effigy of President Obama given that he "had made an outreach to Muslims a thematic pillar of his first year in office." As FAIR's Jim Naureckas responded: "Maybe WAR made a bigger impression?"

On a different note: over the next six weeks, I will be speaking in numerous American cities (and one event in Canada) on civil liberties, Islamophobia, the war on terror, the surveillance state, and related matters. Those events will be in California, Colorado, Missouri, Arizona, Michigan, Washington, Texas, and New Jersey, as well as in Ottawa, Canada. All events are open to the public, and event information is here.

UPDATE

Numerous people have popped up in the comment section in order, quite unsurprisingly, to create all sorts of exceptions to "free speech" designed to protect their own views while allowing the criminalization of views they dislike. The hallmark of someone who does not really believe in free speech is when they claim they do, followed by a "but", followed by efforts to explain why the views they embrace should be permitted, while the views they despise should not be.

The most common claim in this regard is that speech that advocates violence is not permissible. Leave aside the fact that most of the examples I cited above where the speech of Muslims was criminalized involved no such advocacy. Leave aside the fact that the US supreme court, more than 40 years ago and by a unanimous vote, ruled that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force."

Further leave aside that this free speech "exception" would render illegal all sorts of views which are plainly legitimate. Do people who believe this really think that it should be illegal for a Muslim to say: "The west is continuously bringing violence to our societies by attacking us with bombs, invasions and occupations, and I believe the only way deter this is to take up arms and impose violence back on them"? Should it be similarly illegal for someone to say, as the American founders did: "I believe our government has become so tyrannical and unjust that it is now justified to take up arms against it in revolution"?

And finally leave aside the fact that all sorts of common political advocacy can be construed as "advocating violence". As noted, it is often claimed that those who denounce US wars as unjust aggression or imperialism are "emboldening" attacks on US troops and therefore inciting violence.

My real question for those who insist that advocacy of violence should be suppressed is this: do you apply this view consistently? Do you want those who advocated the attack on Iraq - i.e., who advocated violence - to be arrested? How about those who cheer for the war in Afghanistan, or drone attacks on Pakistanis and Yemenis? The next time someone in the US or UK stands up and advocates a new war - say, attacking Iran - should they be arrested on the ground that they are advocating violence?

Or is it the case, as it certainly appears, that when people say that "advocating violence" should be suppressed, what they really mean is: it should be prohibited for those people over there to advocate violence against my society, but my society is of course free to advocate violence against them?


As I wrote above, those who apply free speech values inconsistently are not merely being hypocritical; worse, they are attempting to exploit free speech precepts to protect and legitimize the views of themselves and their own side while suppressing those views they dislike and which are advocated by the other side. Indeed, it's often the very people who insist that "advocacy of violence" should not be permitted who, in the next breath, justify the wars and bombings and drone-attacks of their government.




The U.K. Is even worse in this regard. A single tweet is enough to send you to prison. If you are so sure of your claim, go ahead and post a threatening blog against the cartoonists who drew the prophet Muhammad to prove your point, assuming you are entitled to this right. I can assure you, you will be in jail.
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