EPTUpdate: they chose Dobkin, but Tygybko claimed he would be running for the presidency regardless.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 384
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
Update: they chose Dobkin, but Tygybko claimed he would be running for the presidency regardless. | ||
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
Telephone conversation with US President Barack Obama Vladimir Putin had a telephone conversation with President of the United States of America Barack Obama. The two leaders continued exchanging views on the crisis in Ukraine. Vladimir Putin drew Barack Obama’s attention to continued rampage of extremists who are committing acts of intimidation towards peaceful residents, government authorities and law enforcement agencies in various regions and in Kiev with impunity. In light of this, the President of Russia suggested examining possible steps the global community can take to help stabilise the situation. The two presidents agreed that specific parameters for this joint work will be discussed by the Russian and US foreign ministers in the near future. Vladimir Putin also pointed out that Transnistria is essentially experiencing a blockade, which significantly complicate the living conditions for the region’s residents, impeding their movement and normal trade and economic activities. He stressed that Russia stands for the fair and comprehensive settlement of the Transnistria conflict and hopes for effective work in the existing 5+2 negotiation format. Well...guess we know who is next. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On March 29 2014 07:48 Yoav wrote: People think those guys are traitors not because they think it's okay "to distort information to protect the interests of the state." They think Assange is a traitor because he released his information willy-nilly without checking it to see if it endangered lives. Assange is Australian, so unless you know a lot of Australians you have no way of knowing if he's considered a traitor or not. Let alone know why they think he's a traitor, if they indeed do. I have a suspicion that a lot of people think Snowden is a traitor because they were told so by people or sources they trust. They may have listened to some of the arguments in case they need to repeat it somewhere, but the amount of people who actually evaluated those arguments at any depth is tiny. The difference with Russia is that people are more cynical. They don't need to deceive themselves into thinking they are always the good guys: they know they're not, and they are fine with that. | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On March 28 2014 23:01 Cheerio wrote: 72% of russians consider it acceptible to conceal some information in the news when its required, and 54% are confident that its ok to distort information to protect the interests of the state. On March 30 2014 00:26 hypercube wrote: The difference with Russia is that people are more cynical. They don't need to deceive themselves into thinking they are always the good guys: they know they're not, and they are fine with that. I took out the middle quotes to refer to Cheerio's original post; it really seems to directly contradict what you're saying here. I can understand if Russians are cynical and accept the practical reality, but that's not what this question is asking. Its asking whether people are hypothetically okay with their government hiding and distorting information to protect state interests, whenever the state thinks its appropriate to. To say the least this is a pretty naive and dangerous position to hold especially when they know how much corruption exists (for example, the olympic games). I think Yoav got it right; even if people aren't that well-informed, at least they try to be. I seriously doubt any American would tell a pollster its okay for their government to conceal and distort information. They have a very healthy level of skepticism | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On March 30 2014 01:09 radscorpion9 wrote: I think Yoav got it right; even if people aren't that well-informed, at least they try to be. I seriously doubt any American would tell a pollster its okay for their government to conceal and distort information. They have a very healthy level of skepticism No, they don't. Very few people do. How skeptical can you really be if you don't even realize that the guy you thought was a traitor wasn't even from your country hence could not commit treason against the US? I'm guessing even the Russians who support propaganda would want to know the truth themselves. They just realize that sometimes if you want to deceive your enemies you also have to deceive the public. Which is exactly what a lot of Americans believe, but for some reason this is dressed up as protecting lives by a surprisingly large number of commentators. Although not all: kudos to conservatives who tend to be more honest about it. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
- Unattributed I would call that lack of trust in common sense disturbingly close to a complete devastation to the concept of civil rights. If people are that stupid they need a big fuehrer to lead them, if you follow my drift? Stability over rights! | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On March 30 2014 02:10 radiatoren wrote: Another issue about russians is that there is a sense of entitlement that they often have (on an international level). Entitlement to glory, power and victories. Now the democracy is about fairness and human rights. So it creates a problem: it is very difficult to sell fairness to someone who feels entitled for more."What is democracy, but a game of brainwashed sheep? The most convincing lies are what the clones in politics goes with and they try to keep their story straight in their own mind to the point of even themself falling into the trap of empty deceit..." - Unattributed I would call that lack of trust in common sense disturbingly close to a complete devastation to the concept of civil rights. If people are that stupid they need a big fuehrer to lead them, if you follow my drift? Stability over rights! | ||
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zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
On March 30 2014 02:59 Cheerio wrote: Another issue about russians is that there is a sense of entitlement that they often have (on an international level). Entitlement to glory, power and victories. Now the democracy is about fairness and human rights. So it creates a problem: it is very difficult to sell fairness to someone who feels entitled for more. Name one superpower or a country with nuclear weapons that doesn't act entitled. What superpower or great power anytime ever in the history of the world didn't think their way was the right way, fuck everybody else. Human rights and fairness? Good thing fairness is whatever the strongest says is fair. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 30 2014 03:19 zeo wrote: Name one superpower or a country with nuclear weapons that doesn't act entitled. What superpower or great power anytime ever in the history of the world didn't think their way was the right way, fuck everybody else. Human rights and fairness? Good thing fairness is whatever the strongest says is fair. Germany after Americans helped them to achieve freedom after 90. Used to spend all their days fantasizing about taking over the world and marching around in formations. Now in just a short 20 year period they rule over Europe and are beloved world wide for their efficiency. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 30 2014 03:28 Sub40APM wrote: Germany after Americans helped them to achieve freedom after 90. Used to spend all their days fantasizing about taking over the world and marching around in formations. Now in just a short 20 year period they rule over Europe and are beloved world wide for their efficiency. We're don't have nuclear weapons though. edit: in our Bundeswehr you still learn the "germanst way of moving", or "most german way of moving", marching (and it's called like that). | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 30 2014 03:19 zeo wrote: Name one superpower or a country with nuclear weapons that doesn't act entitled. What superpower or great power anytime ever in the history of the world didn't think their way was the right way, fuck everybody else. Human rights and fairness? Good thing fairness is whatever the strongest says is fair. I think what he's talking about is the lack of a civil middle class in Russia. You have St. Petersburg and Moskow which are pretty 'European' and quite rich and you have a lot of rural underdeveloped areas. The country relies so much on its resources that there's little innovative entrepreneurship which affects society as well. Just look at how much broad support the anti - gay legislation got, the Pussy Riot stuff and how indifferent people in Russia in general seem to be when it comes to censorship and their governments autocratic tendencies. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 30 2014 03:28 Sub40APM wrote: Germany after Americans helped them to achieve freedom after 90. Used to spend all their days fantasizing about taking over the world and marching around in formations. Now in just a short 20 year period they rule over Europe and are beloved world wide for their efficiency. Wait wat The list of countries and people contributing to the re-unificiation of Germany goes 1. David Hasselhoff 2. West Germany 3. the USSR since it failed/east Germany for the same reason ... You think? ![[image loading]](http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47638000/gif/_47638175_uranium_nuc_466.gif) (and goose-stepping was actually a massive tactical advantage in battles when it was introduced, it help keeping the formation) | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On March 30 2014 03:28 Sub40APM wrote: Germany after Americans helped them to achieve freedom after 90. Used to spend all their days fantasizing about taking over the world and marching around in formations. Now in just a short 20 year period they rule over Europe and are beloved world wide for their efficiency. After the war a German general in a Western (not Russian) POW camp wrote a book detailing what Germany did wrong and what Germany would have to do next time to succeed. He sincerely possessed the full expectation that Germany would try to take over Europe again. He was just 60 years late and wrong on the methods, he thought it was going to be another war that would do it. Wait wat The list of countries and people contributing to the re-unificiation of Germany goes 1. David Hasselhoff 2. West Germany 3. the USSR since it failed/east Germany for the same reason ... Any list where the Hoff and the USA don't share number one for contributions to the reunification of Germany is crazy. The USSR's rotten foundation collapsed because America leaned on it hard. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 30 2014 03:32 m4ini wrote: We're don't have nuclear weapons though. edit: in our Bundeswehr you still learn the "germanst way of moving", or "most german way of moving", marching (and it's called like that). But you could get them tomorrow, using your wisdom and efficiency. The point is, you dont have to be a massive assholes, and countries that historically have been massive assholes can be turned around. So there is always hope for Russia. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 30 2014 03:38 SilentchiLL wrote: Wait wat The list of countries and people contributing to the re-unificiation of Germany goes 1. David Hasselhoff 2. West Germany 3. the USSR since it failed/east Germany for the same reason ... You think? (and goose-stepping was actually a massive tactical advantage in battles when it was introduced, it help keeping the formation) Pretty sure, that the last time i checked, we did not. Not counting foreign nuclear arsenal obviously, the "capability to eventually make one" doesn't matter in regard to the argument that was made. Edit: obviously the Hoff is one of the biggest reasons. I even drove to the concert back in the day. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On March 30 2014 02:10 radiatoren wrote: "What is democracy, but a game of brainwashed sheep? The most convincing lies are what the clones in politics goes with and they try to keep their story straight in their own mind to the point of even themself falling into the trap of empty deceit..." - Unattributed I would call that lack of trust in common sense disturbingly close to a complete devastation to the concept of civil rights. If people are that stupid they need a big fuehrer to lead them, if you follow my drift? Stability over rights! Now you're judging a statement based on whether it's useful for society or not. Maybe you're much closer to the Russian (or indeed US) position than you would like to admit. For what it's worth I don't think voters are brainwashed sheep. I think they put much more effort into challenging ideas that go against their interest, while generally uncritically accept statements that benefit them or doesn't concern them much at all. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 30 2014 03:52 m4ini wrote: Pretty sure, that the last time i checked, we did not. Not counting foreign nuclear arsenal obviously, the "capability to eventually make one" doesn't matter in regard to the argument that was made. Edit: obviously the Hoff is one of the biggest reasons. I even drove to the concert back in the day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons They are ready to be used and in our hands right now my friend. Why does that always suprise people? I mean, we're the least likely to actually use them, but still. http://www.globalresearch.ca/europe-s-five-undeclared-nuclear-weapons-states/17550 Germany: Nuclear Weapons Producer Among the five “undeclared nuclear states”, “Germany remains the most heavily nuclearized country with three nuclear bases (two of which are fully operational) and may store as many as 150 [B61 bunker buster ] bombs” (Ibid). In accordance with “NATO strike plans” (mentioned above) these tactical nuclear weapons are also targeted at the Middle East. While Germany is not categorized officially as a nuclear power, it produces nuclear warheads for the French Navy. It stockpiles nuclear warheads (made in America) and it has the capabilities of delivering nuclear weapons. Moreover, The European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company – EADS , a Franco-German-Spanish joint venture, controlled by Deutsche Aerospace and the powerful Daimler Group is Europe’s second largest military producer, supplying .France’s M51 nuclear missile. Germany imports and deploys nuclear weapons from the US. It also produces nuclear warheads which are exported to France. Yet it is classified as a non-nuclear state. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 30 2014 04:28 nunez wrote: uh, globalreasearch? that's a confirmed conspiracy site, silentchill. Was about to mention that I didn't check for that and that it could very well be one, but since this is only about the point of proving that we actually have some it didn't really matter that much to me, especially since there's also a wikipedia link. Not that it actually matters though, since Germany never strived to be a nuclear power after WWII, in fact a few years ago Sarcozy even offered us some nuclear weapons, Merkel said no to them. | ||
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