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On March 20 2014 02:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 02:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On March 20 2014 02:19 kukarachaa wrote:On March 20 2014 02:12 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Wow, just readed translated version (http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/art-1288667380717.html) I can translate to english(not best english). Venäjän henkinen ja sotilaallinen voima nousee uudelleen kaikessa mahtavuudessaan, palautuu Alaska, Baltia, Puola ja Suomi, kaikki nämä ovat venäläisiä alueita, osa Venäjää, Kokorev kaavaili. "Russia's mental and military power will rise again in all its mightiness, Alaska, Baltia, Poland and Finland. All these are Russian areas, part of Russia." That guy is out of his mind :O more: - Seuraava askel on koko Moldova ja koko Ukraina. Ja sitten kaikki muut entiset Neuvostoliiton alueet, Venäjä yhdistyy ja keskittyy, kuten aina ennenkin, Kokorev kirjoitti Facebookissa. - Next step is Moldova ja whole Ukraine. After that all ex soviet union lands. Russia will unite and centre, like always previously. Who is that guy, never heard of him, tried googling, can't find anything either. He is in Council of Europe as Russian representative http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/03/russian-official-russia-will-regain-alaska-the-baltic-countries-finland-and-poland-2921534.htmlThis is written in better english than my translate 
It is either poor sarcasm or the author of that article is crazy. Does he really think that comparing US forces in Alaska to what Russians have in the East is what the war of Russia vs US would come down to ? Seems like delusional people are not only in Russia 
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 20 2014 02:16 Saryph wrote:Show nested quote +Crimean Tatars Will Have to Vacate Land – OfficialMOSCOW, March 18 (RIA Novosti) – Ukraine’s breakaway region of Crimea will ask Tatars to vacate part of the land where they now live in exchange for new territory elsewhere in the region, a top Crimean government official said Tuesday. Crimean Deputy Prime Minister Rustam Temirgaliyev said in an interview with RIA Novosti on Tuesday the new government in Crimea, where residents voted Sunday to become part of Russia, wants to regularize the land unofficially taken over by Crimean Tatar squatters following the collapse of the Soviet Union. “We have asked the Crimean Tatars to vacate part of their land, which is required for social needs,” Temirgaliyev said. “But we are ready to allocate and legalize many other plots of land to ensure a normal life for the Crimean Tatars,” he said. Temirgaliyev emphasized that members of the Tatar community could receive senior political positions in the new government, in an apparent move to ease ethnic tensions in the region. “I think that Crimean Tatars will be well represented in the government and parliament,” he said. The Crimean Tatars, a historic people of the region, were deported en masse to Central Asia by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin 70 years ago. Although many of them returned in the early 1990s, they were unable to reclaim the land they had possessed before their deportation.
Many Crimean Tatars have taken over unclaimed land as squatters by building houses, farms and mosques. Ukrainian authorities have in the past failed to settle the land disputes.The Tatars, who make up 15 percent of Crimea’s population, remain amongst the staunchest supporters of the new government in Kiev that ousted President Viktor Yanukovych last month. Crimea, a largely Russian-speaking autonomous republic within Ukraine, was part of Russia until it was gifted to Ukraine by Soviet leaders in 1954. Putin signed a decree Monday recognizing Crimea as an independent state, following a referendum Sunday that saw voters on the peninsula overwhelmingly support secession and reunification with Russia. Nearly 30 percent of Crimean Tatars voted in favor of reunification with Russia at Sunday’s referendum, Temirgaliyev said.
The Crimean Tartars "voted" for reunification, and now they get kicked out. Someone tell me this is a joke. And stop de-railing with stupid shit like oh USA does it too, that's for the USA THREAD WE HAVE. Got to keep aware of the bullshit our dear leaders spout anywhere.
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http://www.theonion.com/articles/crimean-voters-excited-to-exercise-democracy-for-l,35548/
SIMFEROPOL, UKRAINE—Following yesterday’s referendum in which 97 percent of voters cast ballots in favor of seceding from Ukraine and joining the Russian Federation, Crimean citizens expressed their excitement Monday at participating in the democratic process one final time. “It brought me such great personal joy to head to the polls and, for the last time ever, have my vote tallied and actually mean something,” said local businessman Sergei Petrov of his vote in support of annexation by Russia, echoing the enthusiasm of hundreds of thousands of his fellow Crimeans who proudly took part in their final opportunity to assert their collective will at the ballot box. “Yesterday was a historic day for Crimea. Our people had a say in their future, and our voices were heard loud and clear, which is extremely special given that it won’t happen again for who knows how long.” At press time, Crimeans were commemorating the vote to become Russian citizens by eagerly watching and reading coverage of the momentous event in the limited handful of sanctioned media sources they now have available to them.
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On March 20 2014 03:00 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 02:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On March 20 2014 02:19 kukarachaa wrote:On March 20 2014 02:12 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Wow, just readed translated version (http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/art-1288667380717.html) I can translate to english(not best english). Venäjän henkinen ja sotilaallinen voima nousee uudelleen kaikessa mahtavuudessaan, palautuu Alaska, Baltia, Puola ja Suomi, kaikki nämä ovat venäläisiä alueita, osa Venäjää, Kokorev kaavaili. "Russia's mental and military power will rise again in all its mightiness, Alaska, Baltia, Poland and Finland. All these are Russian areas, part of Russia." That guy is out of his mind :O more: - Seuraava askel on koko Moldova ja koko Ukraina. Ja sitten kaikki muut entiset Neuvostoliiton alueet, Venäjä yhdistyy ja keskittyy, kuten aina ennenkin, Kokorev kirjoitti Facebookissa. - Next step is Moldova ja whole Ukraine. After that all ex soviet union lands. Russia will unite and centre, like always previously. Who is that guy, never heard of him, tried googling, can't find anything either. He is in Council of Europe as Russian representative Are you sure, I can't find anything with his name and Council of Europe, or any political organizations for that matter. Edit. my bad misspelled his name, thought it was Korolev tnx.
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/art-1288667380717.html
There is also picture of his linked profile. I cant see it myself coz im not member of linked.
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On March 20 2014 03:02 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 02:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On March 20 2014 02:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On March 20 2014 02:19 kukarachaa wrote:On March 20 2014 02:12 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Wow, just readed translated version (http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/art-1288667380717.html) I can translate to english(not best english). Venäjän henkinen ja sotilaallinen voima nousee uudelleen kaikessa mahtavuudessaan, palautuu Alaska, Baltia, Puola ja Suomi, kaikki nämä ovat venäläisiä alueita, osa Venäjää, Kokorev kaavaili. "Russia's mental and military power will rise again in all its mightiness, Alaska, Baltia, Poland and Finland. All these are Russian areas, part of Russia." That guy is out of his mind :O more: - Seuraava askel on koko Moldova ja koko Ukraina. Ja sitten kaikki muut entiset Neuvostoliiton alueet, Venäjä yhdistyy ja keskittyy, kuten aina ennenkin, Kokorev kirjoitti Facebookissa. - Next step is Moldova ja whole Ukraine. After that all ex soviet union lands. Russia will unite and centre, like always previously. Who is that guy, never heard of him, tried googling, can't find anything either. He is in Council of Europe as Russian representative http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/03/russian-official-russia-will-regain-alaska-the-baltic-countries-finland-and-poland-2921534.htmlThis is written in better english than my translate It is either poor sarcasm or the author of that article is crazy. Does he really think that comparing US forces in Alaska to what Russians have in the East is what the war of Russia vs US would come down to ? Seems like delusional people are not only in Russia
I still can't find anything about that guy. Almost seems like they picked a random dude of facebook.
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On March 20 2014 03:06 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.theonion.com/articles/crimean-voters-excited-to-exercise-democracy-for-l,35548/Show nested quote +SIMFEROPOL, UKRAINE—Following yesterday’s referendum in which 97 percent of voters cast ballots in favor of seceding from Ukraine and joining the Russian Federation, Crimean citizens expressed their excitement Monday at participating in the democratic process one final time. “It brought me such great personal joy to head to the polls and, for the last time ever, have my vote tallied and actually mean something,” said local businessman Sergei Petrov of his vote in support of annexation by Russia, echoing the enthusiasm of hundreds of thousands of his fellow Crimeans who proudly took part in their final opportunity to assert their collective will at the ballot box. “Yesterday was a historic day for Crimea. Our people had a say in their future, and our voices were heard loud and clear, which is extremely special given that it won’t happen again for who knows how long.” At press time, Crimeans were commemorating the vote to become Russian citizens by eagerly watching and reading coverage of the momentous event in the limited handful of sanctioned media sources they now have available to them.
Haha. The Onion strikes again
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On March 20 2014 03:09 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 03:02 mcc wrote:On March 20 2014 02:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On March 20 2014 02:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On March 20 2014 02:19 kukarachaa wrote:On March 20 2014 02:12 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Wow, just readed translated version (http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/art-1288667380717.html) I can translate to english(not best english). Venäjän henkinen ja sotilaallinen voima nousee uudelleen kaikessa mahtavuudessaan, palautuu Alaska, Baltia, Puola ja Suomi, kaikki nämä ovat venäläisiä alueita, osa Venäjää, Kokorev kaavaili. "Russia's mental and military power will rise again in all its mightiness, Alaska, Baltia, Poland and Finland. All these are Russian areas, part of Russia." That guy is out of his mind :O more: - Seuraava askel on koko Moldova ja koko Ukraina. Ja sitten kaikki muut entiset Neuvostoliiton alueet, Venäjä yhdistyy ja keskittyy, kuten aina ennenkin, Kokorev kirjoitti Facebookissa. - Next step is Moldova ja whole Ukraine. After that all ex soviet union lands. Russia will unite and centre, like always previously. Who is that guy, never heard of him, tried googling, can't find anything either. He is in Council of Europe as Russian representative http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/03/russian-official-russia-will-regain-alaska-the-baltic-countries-finland-and-poland-2921534.htmlThis is written in better english than my translate It is either poor sarcasm or the author of that article is crazy. Does he really think that comparing US forces in Alaska to what Russians have in the East is what the war of Russia vs US would come down to ? Seems like delusional people are not only in Russia I still can't find anything about that guy. Almost seems like they picked a random dude of facebook.
http://www.yatedo.com/p/Roman Kokorev/normal/dfc76f61be008a3fb358aad853bb2e48
Looks like he deleted his linked in profile once he realized that exchange doesnt look that great.
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Gotta protect those ethnic Russians by ethnically cleansing the Tatars the way we already did a half-dozen times before.
To fight the Nazis and Western vampires! I always knew those Tatars were the real string-pullers behind neo-vampire Western finance.
Onward Mother Russia.
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I can't seriously believe they're trying to 'relocate' the Tatars. I mean it's like history never happened
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On March 20 2014 03:20 Nyxisto wrote:
I can't seriously believe they're trying to 'relocate' the Tatars. I mean it's like history never happened
Yeah but what about those times when Native Americans and white Americans tried to ethnically cleanse each other and the whites won? What about the Volkerwanderung? You hypocrite!
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And it doesn't even take them more then a few days to get started. I think the main point here is Putin saying "We don't give a crap what anyone thinks". Otherwise they would just have waited a few months until noone cared about Crimea anymore.
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On March 20 2014 03:20 Nyxisto wrote:
I can't seriously believe they're trying to 'relocate' the Tatars. I mean it's like history never happened
well since they are trying to rebuild the soviet union -- minus all the social spending the soviet union actually was good for -- on the back bone of oil exports while maintaining that race should be the driver of foreign policy it appears for certain policy makers history didnt happen.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 20 2014 02:57 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 02:15 oneofthem wrote:
intl law may be powerless but one can surely think and judge actions without intl law. if there is no police in ur neighborhood are u gonna go "i can kill ppl and take stuff"? Of course we can judge. I was trying to say that legalistic arguments are worthless, but of course we can still make ethical ones.
and that obviously condemns russia
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On March 20 2014 01:34 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 01:30 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 20 2014 01:04 mcc wrote:On March 19 2014 23:28 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 23:22 fleeze wrote:On March 19 2014 23:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 23:15 FatCat_13 wrote:On March 19 2014 23:10 hypercube wrote:On March 19 2014 23:00 radiatoren wrote:On March 19 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
It was an agreement, those aren't ratified in parliaments... Doesn't make them void, though.
Well, it is kind of a fickle situation. As soon as Russia breached the territorial integrity of Ukraine, USA and UK would be forced to honour the agreement too, which would have resulted in war. UK and USA found it unnecessary to escalate the situation and therefore didn't hold up their end of the deal, if it is true that the agreement is valid. We end up in a situation where nobody honoured this agreement. Russia broke it first, that is correct, but USA and UK broke it too... As someone has pointed out in this thread before the Budapest Memorandum is not a security guarantee. All it says that these countries won't attack Ukraine not that they would protect it against aggression. The thing is that there was no formal "attack". Russia and Ukraine had a contract allowing russian troops up to 25k on the bases in Crimea. Russia originally had 14k and added 11k just within the contract. I highly doubt that contract allowed those troops to blockade roads into Crimea and blockade Ukrainian military bases inside Crimea. just look at the current situation from a russian perspective: crimea is no longer a part of the ukraine (this is a FACT right now, doesn't matter if you like it or not) the ukraine soldiers stationed in crimea have no business being there. the ukraine minister of defense (of the swoboda party) does not want to withdraw his soldiers and encourages them to use their weapons because he hopes when the situation escalates the west will interfere and help him out. and russia is the aggressor here? On March 19 2014 23:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 22:43 fleeze wrote:On March 19 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:
[quote]
Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parliaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries. It was an agreement, those aren't ratified in parliaments... Doesn't make them void, though. ah, must be the same as the agreement that the NATO won't expand past the iron curtain? "agreements" are held in high respect by both sides it seems. *sigh*, please educate yourself before you type. The foreign ministers of the US and Germany PROMISED to Soviet leaders that NATO would not expand. This was never signed as an agreement. It's still a broken promise, but not a part of international law. Breaking it merely (but rightly) damaged the diplomatic relations between the US, Germany and the Russian Federation. An agreement is a signed document which does is binding before international law. i don't see any difference here? broken promise against broken promise. doesn't matter at all if it's written down or not. That basically amounts to sticking fingers in your ears and shouting "NANANANANA". But should I ever buy a house from you, let's not sign a contract, I just promise to give you the money afterwards. Surely that's equally good in your eyes. Verbal contracts are as binding as written ones in many countries. The only difference is the difficulty of proving the contents of the contract. You're talking about a verbal contract. What I said was a promise. But, honestly, the distinction in international law between an agreement and a treaty is not the same as a contract and promise anyway. I was only trying to give him an intuitive analogy, but he just proceeded to argue against that. I proclaim it a hopeless cause. Well I agree that there is a difference between national and international law, I just have different reason for it. I think actual value of the promise or treaty in international relations is the same and differences are purely formal and quite meaningless in practice as enforcement is in the hands of the parties in question.
That's not true either, consider for example the WTO or UN, both are based on multilateral treaties with independent bodies making decisions which are enforced independently (albeit with contributions from members). Generally the idea is that members receive benefits from membership and when they violate rules, those benefits are taken from them. Of course, there are holes (such as the UNSC veto) but that does not allow you to throw away international law. And the fact that something cannot be enforced also does not make it less of a violation. It's like saying that it's not a violation to move a chess pawn 3 squares because no-one can punish you for it. Once you make that move, the rules of chess have been violated. And with this respect, there's nothing `formal' about the difference between different rules. For example, as the Kyoto Protocol had to be ratified to be binding, no-one considers the US in violation of the Kyoto Protocol as it did not ratify it. But as an agreement doesn't require ratification, a country is deemed in violation of said agreement if it signed it and yet violates its articles.
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Poland's FM has become a bit of a superstar:
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Step 2 towards bringing nuclear holocaust closer (breaking the Budapest Memorandum was #1):
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Considering that all the masks came off yesterday, perhaps we should read what the people who warned against Putin all along are now saying. Perhaps they see something we don't still:
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i don't think any of you understood what will happen with the tartars ...
have you even read that press release?, or only the bolded part.
Edit: Crimea under Ukraine have been clashing (with) and evicting tartar squatters for 5 years...
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I dont envy any diplomat trying to work on nonprolifiration work from now on. You have literally a perfect example of why if you are a smaller state next to a hostile stronger state you need nuclear weapons.
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Note the bit about scrutinizing a Russian energy deal. It provides an indication of the level of ambition Germany is (or is not) considering.
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On March 20 2014 04:04 xM(Z wrote:
i don't think any of you understood what will happen with the tartars ...
have you even read that press release?, or only the bolded part.
Edit: Crimea under Ukraine have been clashing (with) and evicting tartar squatters for 5 years...
We understand, they'll get put in a part of Crimea that is easier to put the lid on and will also probably be poorer in natural resources and trade routes as well. That's what happens when you get relocated because you're part of some undesirable minority.
Was Ukraine dealing with Tatar squatters en masse or on an individual / family / community basis? It's one thing to deal with people individually or in small groups that have some connection (like families) if they're "squatting" on land but it's another to ask or demand whole communities pack up and go.
We're all at least somewhat aware of how Russia treated the Tatars in the not too distant past and this is not an indication that they've changed so try to minimize it all you want.
Note the bit about scrutinizing a Russian energy deal. It provides an indication of the level of ambition Germany is (or is not) considering.
Merkel found Germany's balls over the weekend, all of a sudden they're number 2 behind the US in severity of their rhetoric / threatened "consequences." I think more than anything it's Merkel's personal relationship with Putin which seems to have been pretty much destroyed by this.
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Merkel found Germany's balls over the weekend, all of a sudden they're number 2 behind the US in severity of their rhetoric / threatened "consequences."
As far as i know, this is the first economic intervention so far of any country, isn't it?
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On March 20 2014 04:44 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Merkel found Germany's balls over the weekend, all of a sudden they're number 2 behind the US in severity of their rhetoric / threatened "consequences." As far as i know, this is the first economic intervention so far of any country, isn't it?
I think so. The US took the lead in the first round with the more important names on their list of bad Russian people and now Germany is leading the way with Europe's economic second round. The US might not impose economic sanctions until and unless it goes to the third round which is supposed to be we're super duper cereal about it now Russia time, so the first time Washington does it it'll have more impact. But maybe the US will announce some economic consequences later this week or sometime soon who knows.
edit: and it's not like these are huge moves by germany but it sends the message that germany is willing to do things like this and with merkel's party calling for an investigation it sends the message that they are willing to go farther. at various times in history germany and russia have been able to talk and get along and cooperate pretty well and the putin-merkel era of relations has been one of them for the most part, until now.
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EPT
