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There are reports from undisclosed sources that Yatsenyuk during his visit to Brussels received guarantees of NATO support in case of Russian military intervention into mainland Ukraine.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 12 2014 03:04 Cheerio wrote:
There are reports from undisclosed sources that Yatsenyuk during his visit to Brussels received guarantees of NATO support in case of Russian military intervention into mainland Ukraine.
In other words Yatsenyuk admitted that no inervention has happened yet.
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Dear lord can we stop the Iraq war argument? Yes it was shady, yest there were no WMD's , but most important: it has nothing to do with the Ukraine.
I dont know anything about russian troops. I do not live in Crimea so I dont have information first hand. But neither do you.
On the other hand if Crimea would have been filled with same revolutionists from Euromaidan would referendum be fair?
There is Russian military in Crimea, it'a fact. Journalists have confirmed it over and over(look it up on the internet, or earlier in this thread). And yes, in principle a referendum would be fair, but not with the gun to their heads. The people don't even have the option to vote to stay in the Ukraine. The election is basically just for show and the decision has already been made.
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On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins.
Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself.
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On March 12 2014 03:05 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:04 Cheerio wrote:
There are reports from undisclosed sources that Yatsenyuk during his visit to Brussels received guarantees of NATO support in case of Russian military intervention into mainland Ukraine. In other words Yatsenyuk admitted that no inervention has happened yet.
Are you for real, or are you trolling? Honest question, i'm baffled by so much ignorance.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself.
I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know.
Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after.
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On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after.
If i tell you i will kill your dog on the 18th (or anything equally bad), do you wait for me to kill him or do you go apeshit right now?
Edit
Again, it's not about having a referendum. It's about having a fair referendum, which it is not. It's rigged. That's why people go ham.
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On March 12 2014 02:54 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 02:37 Simberto wrote:On March 12 2014 02:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 02:12 semantics wrote:
Referendum was only bought up post Russian troop involvement. Russian troop involvement suggests tampering. Evacuate Russian troops see if there was naturally going to be a referendum. Anything less is tampering. Ofc russia wouldn't allow that as that holds a high possibility that they would not side with Russia. And Russia wants their wet port, damn be w.e people of crimea wants. I dont know anything about russian troops. I do not live in Crimea so I dont have information first hand. But neither do you. On the other hand if Crimea would have been filled with same revolutionists from Euromaidan would referendum be fair? Guys just try to put yourself on place of common sitezens of Crimea. Where would you want to live? In Russia where your relatives lives and always lived (not long ago Crimea was part of Russia) or in Ukraine torn apart be revolution, governed by US secretary John Kerry and co, on the brink of default and with many other problems. But USA said right from the start that they dont give a damn what people in Crimea think and wont accept results. Guys if you really belive in democracy USA and EU must insist that referendum takes places and send there as many observers as possible. You conveniently ignored all of the problems mentioned before. Most people would probably accept a democratic and untampered referendum. This is not it. This is russian imperialism. Basically, the way it should work is that FIRST there is the referendum, THEN the russian troops in the street. If it is the other way around, it is an invasion. People with guns without any observers can get any result they want out of a referendum. Thus, the referendum does not show the will of the people of Crimea, but that of the russian occupying troops. Or their fascist overlord, i guess. Lets assume for a second there are troops in Crimea.
There ARE troops in crimea, no matter how much money Putin spends on Propaganda, he really can't change that fact.
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On March 12 2014 02:54 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 02:37 Simberto wrote:On March 12 2014 02:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 02:12 semantics wrote:
Referendum was only bought up post Russian troop involvement. Russian troop involvement suggests tampering. Evacuate Russian troops see if there was naturally going to be a referendum. Anything less is tampering. Ofc russia wouldn't allow that as that holds a high possibility that they would not side with Russia. And Russia wants their wet port, damn be w.e people of crimea wants. I dont know anything about russian troops. I do not live in Crimea so I dont have information first hand. But neither do you. On the other hand if Crimea would have been filled with same revolutionists from Euromaidan would referendum be fair? Guys just try to put yourself on place of common sitezens of Crimea. Where would you want to live? In Russia where your relatives lives and always lived (not long ago Crimea was part of Russia) or in Ukraine torn apart be revolution, governed by US secretary John Kerry and co, on the brink of default and with many other problems. But USA said right from the start that they dont give a damn what people in Crimea think and wont accept results. Guys if you really belive in democracy USA and EU must insist that referendum takes places and send there as many observers as possible. You conveniently ignored all of the problems mentioned before. Most people would probably accept a democratic and untampered referendum. This is not it. This is russian imperialism. Basically, the way it should work is that FIRST there is the referendum, THEN the russian troops in the street. If it is the other way around, it is an invasion. People with guns without any observers can get any result they want out of a referendum. Thus, the referendum does not show the will of the people of Crimea, but that of the russian occupying troops. Or their fascist overlord, i guess. The last remark was it really necessary? Cant you argue without offending people(presidents)? I didnt ignore anything. I dont know English that well to respond to everybody. Lets assume for a second there are troops in Crimea. In other words goverment in Iraq is illegtitmate and in Afganistan too? Buy the way how many american and european troops were in Irak? 100 000? 200 000? Care to discuss invasion in Iraq?
I m happy you are showing your devotion for a disgusting and ugly fascist dictator. Ultranationalism shows itself when there is no self criticism regarding one s country or administration. You talk about evil fascist in Kiev, I will tell you about modern Russia, nationalism and fascism.
I have looked up the definition of fascism and it always comes back to a political ideology or influence based on populism, ultranationalism and the idolization of the state.
Sad to say but Russia has everything of the facist dictature:
-total media control and propaganda without the possibility of criticizing the state nor the administration
-NGO control so that no dissident voices can be heard
-a controlled and corrupted justice
-an hyper centralized and corrupted power
-fake elections and votes
-an all mighty and reverred chief who changes laws for himself
-a prevalent nationalism which is in most cases based on ignorance and feelings and triggered by.propaganda, you know Marx talked about religion being the opium of the people, making it forget about its pains and lack of liberty, nationalism is a type of religion
-the will of most of its representatives is to expand Russia s power and influence at the expense of human rights and the sovereinity of other countries
We might even argue that the russian parliament is a total joke when we see that regardless of the partis, all russian MPs were for crimea invasion. It s possible that Putin has even more control over everything in Russia, this crisis shows that it worsens in that regard. Now plz don t expect people to show even a tiny bit of respect for your beloved dictator.
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On March 12 2014 03:05 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:04 Cheerio wrote:
There are reports from undisclosed sources that Yatsenyuk during his visit to Brussels received guarantees of NATO support in case of Russian military intervention into mainland Ukraine. In other words Yatsenyuk admitted that no inervention has happened yet.
no he didn't
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 12 2014 03:10 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. If i tell you i will kill your dog on the 18th (or anything equally bad), do you wait for me to kill him or do you go apeshit right now? Edit Again, it's not about having a referendum. It's about having a fair referendum, which it is not. It's rigged. That's why people go ham.
I don't have dog, only 20 parakeets ):
To be honest, noone can guarantee that referendum's decision will be followed. I still hope that world giants will find some kind of consensus and everyone will be satisfied, at least, partly.
And to guy who spoke about faschist Russia.
Last elections in 2013 were amazingly good, without any shit votes. So don't lie.
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On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after.
i'd say to stop the referendum in crimea you have to also stop the discussions of the current ukrainian government with the EU and the NATO. you can't force one country to step back while the others interfere as they want.
also NOBODY knows what the ukrainian population wants. their government is not elected, doesn't represent the whole country and there wasn't a referendum about joining the EU or russian treaty on the economic side.
the real question is: WHY do they have to choose? and why IMMEDIATELY?
imho the referendum in crimea is just a reaction to this.
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On March 12 2014 03:16 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. i'd say to stop the referendum in crimea you have to also stop the discussions of the current ukrainian government with the EU and the NATO. you can't force one country to step back while the others interfere as they want. also NOBODY knows what the ukrainian population wants. their government is not elected, doesn't represent the whole country and there wasn't a referendum about joining the EU or russian treaty on the economic side. the real question is: WHY do they have to choose? and why IMMEDIATELY? imho the referendum in crimea is just a reaction to this.
The referendum, pushed by the russian government is a reaction to Putin's favoured leader of the country getting dethroned and people getting into power who aren't pro-russian, so is the invasion, that's about it.
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On March 12 2014 03:05 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:04 Cheerio wrote:
There are reports from undisclosed sources that Yatsenyuk during his visit to Brussels received guarantees of NATO support in case of Russian military intervention into mainland Ukraine. In other words Yatsenyuk admitted that no inervention has happened yet.
key word here is mainland. it does not include 'islands' like Crimea
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On March 12 2014 03:16 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:10 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. If i tell you i will kill your dog on the 18th (or anything equally bad), do you wait for me to kill him or do you go apeshit right now? Edit Again, it's not about having a referendum. It's about having a fair referendum, which it is not. It's rigged. That's why people go ham. I don't have dog, only 20 parakeets ): To be honest, noone can guarantee that referendum's decision will be followed. I still hope that world giants will find some kind of consensus and everyone will be satisfied, at least, partly.
I shall flamethrower all of them on the 14th. Even if they're cute. You mad now or after i toasted them?
And i agree, i don't believe that if crimea would vote "no" (that is, if they had the option for that), the referendum would be followed. Russian politicians etc press so hard for the referendum because they KNOW that there can't be a "no" though.
And, don't get me wrong, it's not about you or even the blind people like Mike, but one of the reason that there is no consensus to be found is that your country is run by a dictatorship. It's not about russian people, never was.
i'd say to stop the referendum in crimea you have to also stop the discussions of the current ukrainian government with the EU and the NATO. you can't force one country to step back while the others interfere as they want.
I don't see german tanks patrolling the borders to crimea, or setting up minefields. Do you? No? Maybe that is because your comparison is borderline stupid.
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On March 12 2014 03:19 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:16 fleeze wrote:On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. i'd say to stop the referendum in crimea you have to also stop the discussions of the current ukrainian government with the EU and the NATO. you can't force one country to step back while the others interfere as they want. also NOBODY knows what the ukrainian population wants. their government is not elected, doesn't represent the whole country and there wasn't a referendum about joining the EU or russian treaty on the economic side. the real question is: WHY do they have to choose? and why IMMEDIATELY? imho the referendum in crimea is just a reaction to this. The referendum, pushed by the russian government is a reaction to Putin's favoured leader of the country getting dethroned and people getting into power who aren't pro-russian, so is the invasion, that's about it.
i don't think so.
the ukraine joining the NATO and the economic talks with the EU where ukraine is forced to choose between a treaty with russia OR the EU is definately heavily threatening russian economic and more importantly security interests. but somehow nobody cares about this...
that's why the NATO was never supposed to go over the old iron curtain. at least that's what russia was promised in the '90s when they had more power.
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On March 12 2014 02:32 Legio wrote:
Can't say I'm too invested in whether Crimea belongs to whichever country.. it was Russian 50 years ago. I am a bit disappointed that now the EU taxpayers have to shell out 15€ billion of free money to the Ukraine, without any sort of democratic vote about it.
Scotland is voting on leaving the United Kingdom, why can't Crimea do a similar vote to leave the Ukraine?
I think a big problem is that most likely it won't stop there. If you allow Crimea region to leave, there is good chance some others will follow.
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On March 12 2014 03:16 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. i'd say to stop the referendum in crimea you have to also stop the discussions of the current ukrainian government with the EU and the NATO. you can't force one country to step back while the others interfere as they want. also NOBODY knows what the ukrainian population wants. their government is not elected, doesn't represent the whole country and there wasn't a referendum about joining the EU or russian treaty on the economic side. the real question is: WHY do they have to choose? and why IMMEDIATELY? imho the referendum in crimea is just a reaction to this.
To understand the EU vs. russian treaty, you have to understand what it is about. EUs overall consideration of what the eurasian union is, shows how difficult the russian union is to understand from Eus side: It is nowhere near a final treaty and thus cannot be evaluated for cooperative measures yet and even when it is possible to evaluate, there are several ifs and buts and a level of deep economic coordination that points towards a federalisation that has to be accounted for.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 12 2014 03:13 Acertos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 02:54 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 02:37 Simberto wrote:On March 12 2014 02:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 02:12 semantics wrote:
Referendum was only bought up post Russian troop involvement. Russian troop involvement suggests tampering. Evacuate Russian troops see if there was naturally going to be a referendum. Anything less is tampering. Ofc russia wouldn't allow that as that holds a high possibility that they would not side with Russia. And Russia wants their wet port, damn be w.e people of crimea wants. I dont know anything about russian troops. I do not live in Crimea so I dont have information first hand. But neither do you. On the other hand if Crimea would have been filled with same revolutionists from Euromaidan would referendum be fair? Guys just try to put yourself on place of common sitezens of Crimea. Where would you want to live? In Russia where your relatives lives and always lived (not long ago Crimea was part of Russia) or in Ukraine torn apart be revolution, governed by US secretary John Kerry and co, on the brink of default and with many other problems. But USA said right from the start that they dont give a damn what people in Crimea think and wont accept results. Guys if you really belive in democracy USA and EU must insist that referendum takes places and send there as many observers as possible. You conveniently ignored all of the problems mentioned before. Most people would probably accept a democratic and untampered referendum. This is not it. This is russian imperialism. Basically, the way it should work is that FIRST there is the referendum, THEN the russian troops in the street. If it is the other way around, it is an invasion. People with guns without any observers can get any result they want out of a referendum. Thus, the referendum does not show the will of the people of Crimea, but that of the russian occupying troops. Or their fascist overlord, i guess. The last remark was it really necessary? Cant you argue without offending people(presidents)? I didnt ignore anything. I dont know English that well to respond to everybody. Lets assume for a second there are troops in Crimea. In other words goverment in Iraq is illegtitmate and in Afganistan too? Buy the way how many american and european troops were in Irak? 100 000? 200 000? Care to discuss invasion in Iraq? I m happy you are showing your devotion for a disgusting and ugly fascist dictator. Ultranationalism shows itself when there is no self criticism regarding one s country or administration. You talk about evil fascist in Kiev, I will tell you about modern Russia, nationalism and fascism. I have looked up the definition of fascism and it always comes back to a political ideology or influence based on populism, ultranationalism and the idolization of the state. Sad to say but Russia has everything of the facist dictature: -total media control and propaganda without the possibility of criticizing the state nor the administration -NGO control so that no dissident voices can be heard -a controlled and corrupted justice -an hyper centralized and corrupted power -fake elections and votes -an all mighty and reverred chief who changes laws for himself -a prevalent nationalism which is in most cases based on ignorance and feelings and triggered by.propaganda, you know Marx talked about religion being the opium of the people, making it forget about its pains and lack of liberty, nationalism is a type of religion -the will of most of its representatives is to expand Russia s power and influence at the expense of human rights and the sovereinity of other countries We might even argue that the russian parliament is a total joke when we see that regardless of the partis, all russian MPs were for crimea invasion. It s possible that Putin has even more control over everything in Russia, this crisis shows that it worsens in that regard. Now plz don t expect people to show even a tiny bit of respect for your beloved dictator.
I agree that Russia has its flows. I just want to say that neither actual Ukrainian goverment nor USA nor EU are saints.
Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
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On March 12 2014 03:26 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 02:32 Legio wrote:
Can't say I'm too invested in whether Crimea belongs to whichever country.. it was Russian 50 years ago. I am a bit disappointed that now the EU taxpayers have to shell out 15€ billion of free money to the Ukraine, without any sort of democratic vote about it.
Scotland is voting on leaving the United Kingdom, why can't Crimea do a similar vote to leave the Ukraine? I think a big problem is that most likely it won't stop there. If you allow Crimea region to leave, there is good chance some others will follow.
Not to mention the whole issue of this referendum occurring while the Crimea is occupied by a foreign power that happens to support the secession of the Crimea.
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EPT
