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On March 12 2014 03:16 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:10 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. If i tell you i will kill your dog on the 18th (or anything equally bad), do you wait for me to kill him or do you go apeshit right now? Edit Again, it's not about having a referendum. It's about having a fair referendum, which it is not. It's rigged. That's why people go ham. I don't have dog, only 20 parakeets ): To be honest, noone can guarantee that referendum's decision will be followed. I still hope that world giants will find some kind of consensus and everyone will be satisfied, at least, partly. And to guy who spoke about faschist Russia. Last elections in 2013 were amazingly good, without any shit votes. So don't lie.
Idk if that was sacarsm or something but first Putin has been in power for more than 15yrs and bypassed the Constitution of not being able to be president three times in a row by.beimg prime minister. It s hallucinating, and the last elections which were these famous presidential elections were a total joke contested internationaly and by the opposition with corruption and people putting dozens of votes for whom they wanted without risking anything.
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Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
How about you ask that in the threads where this is discussed?
Stop fricking derailing the thread.
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On March 12 2014 03:30 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
How about you ask that in the threads where this is discussed? Stop fricking derailing the thread.
the last thing "Do you approve revolution in Ukraine? " is key here and totally relevant to the discussion.
russia doesn't approve, the west approves. that's why russia is claiming they reacting to a "coup" that overtook the ukraine illegally and the west is claiming they are protecting a peaceful revolution.
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On March 12 2014 03:22 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:19 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 12 2014 03:16 fleeze wrote:On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. i'd say to stop the referendum in crimea you have to also stop the discussions of the current ukrainian government with the EU and the NATO. you can't force one country to step back while the others interfere as they want. also NOBODY knows what the ukrainian population wants. their government is not elected, doesn't represent the whole country and there wasn't a referendum about joining the EU or russian treaty on the economic side. the real question is: WHY do they have to choose? and why IMMEDIATELY? imho the referendum in crimea is just a reaction to this. The referendum, pushed by the russian government is a reaction to Putin's favoured leader of the country getting dethroned and people getting into power who aren't pro-russian, so is the invasion, that's about it. i don't think so. the ukraine joining the NATO and the economic talks with the EU where ukraine is forced to choose between a treaty with russia OR the EU is definately heavily threatening russian economic and more importantly security interests. but somehow nobody cares about this... that's why the NATO was never supposed to go over the old iron curtain. at least that's what russia was promised in the '90s when they had more power.
was it? Where is that deal? I wonna have a look at it.
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On March 12 2014 03:28 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:13 Acertos wrote:On March 12 2014 02:54 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 02:37 Simberto wrote:On March 12 2014 02:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 02:12 semantics wrote:
Referendum was only bought up post Russian troop involvement. Russian troop involvement suggests tampering. Evacuate Russian troops see if there was naturally going to be a referendum. Anything less is tampering. Ofc russia wouldn't allow that as that holds a high possibility that they would not side with Russia. And Russia wants their wet port, damn be w.e people of crimea wants. I dont know anything about russian troops. I do not live in Crimea so I dont have information first hand. But neither do you. On the other hand if Crimea would have been filled with same revolutionists from Euromaidan would referendum be fair? Guys just try to put yourself on place of common sitezens of Crimea. Where would you want to live? In Russia where your relatives lives and always lived (not long ago Crimea was part of Russia) or in Ukraine torn apart be revolution, governed by US secretary John Kerry and co, on the brink of default and with many other problems. But USA said right from the start that they dont give a damn what people in Crimea think and wont accept results. Guys if you really belive in democracy USA and EU must insist that referendum takes places and send there as many observers as possible. You conveniently ignored all of the problems mentioned before. Most people would probably accept a democratic and untampered referendum. This is not it. This is russian imperialism. Basically, the way it should work is that FIRST there is the referendum, THEN the russian troops in the street. If it is the other way around, it is an invasion. People with guns without any observers can get any result they want out of a referendum. Thus, the referendum does not show the will of the people of Crimea, but that of the russian occupying troops. Or their fascist overlord, i guess. The last remark was it really necessary? Cant you argue without offending people(presidents)? I didnt ignore anything. I dont know English that well to respond to everybody. Lets assume for a second there are troops in Crimea. In other words goverment in Iraq is illegtitmate and in Afganistan too? Buy the way how many american and european troops were in Irak? 100 000? 200 000? Care to discuss invasion in Iraq? I m happy you are showing your devotion for a disgusting and ugly fascist dictator. Ultranationalism shows itself when there is no self criticism regarding one s country or administration. You talk about evil fascist in Kiev, I will tell you about modern Russia, nationalism and fascism. I have looked up the definition of fascism and it always comes back to a political ideology or influence based on populism, ultranationalism and the idolization of the state. Sad to say but Russia has everything of the facist dictature: -total media control and propaganda without the possibility of criticizing the state nor the administration -NGO control so that no dissident voices can be heard -a controlled and corrupted justice -an hyper centralized and corrupted power -fake elections and votes -an all mighty and reverred chief who changes laws for himself -a prevalent nationalism which is in most cases based on ignorance and feelings and triggered by.propaganda, you know Marx talked about religion being the opium of the people, making it forget about its pains and lack of liberty, nationalism is a type of religion -the will of most of its representatives is to expand Russia s power and influence at the expense of human rights and the sovereinity of other countries We might even argue that the russian parliament is a total joke when we see that regardless of the partis, all russian MPs were for crimea invasion. It s possible that Putin has even more control over everything in Russia, this crisis shows that it worsens in that regard. Now plz don t expect people to show even a tiny bit of respect for your beloved dictator. I agree that Russia has its flows. I just want to say that neither actual Ukrainian goverment nor USA nor EU are saints. Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
No, No, No, Kinda conflicted, Yes, why does any of that matter in this discussion?
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 12 2014 03:30 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
How about you ask that in the threads where this is discussed? Stop fricking derailing the thread.
I was ansering to a guy who wrote quite a lot about flaws in Russia/
If that was relevant to this thread so was my post. If it wasnt why didnt you indicate to that guy that he was wrong too?
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On March 12 2014 03:20 m4ini wrote:
i will kill your dog on the 18th On March 12 2014 03:16 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I don't have dog, only 20 parakeets ): On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:
I shall flamethrower all of them on the 14th.
good exchange.
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On March 12 2014 03:35 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:30 m4ini wrote:Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
How about you ask that in the threads where this is discussed? Stop fricking derailing the thread. the last thing "Do you approve revolution in Ukraine? " is key here and totally relevant to the discussion. russia doesn't approve, the west approves. that's why russia is claiming they reacting to a "coup" that overtook the ukraine illegally and the west is claiming they are protecting a peaceful revolution.
That's why the EU is investigating the snipershots - it's not that the EU doesn't know it has flaws, it's that russia sent tanks etc into a foreign country, "to protect the citizens". No indication that those citizens were in danger anyway, but well. Now you have russians running rampart in crimea, setting fire to muslimic restaurants etc, basically the russians do everything they said the ukrainians would do.
Im not saying russia should keep their mouth shut, thats bullshit - the eu interferes politically, so should russia. They dont, they interfere via military. Get the difference?
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 12 2014 03:40 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:16 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I don't have dog, only 20 parakeets ): Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:
I shall flamethrower all of them on the 14th. good exchange.
And its only me who is being blamed for derailing this thread
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On March 12 2014 03:35 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:30 m4ini wrote:Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
How about you ask that in the threads where this is discussed? Stop fricking derailing the thread. the last thing "Do you approve revolution in Ukraine? " is key here and totally relevant to the discussion.
actually it's not. Ukrainian revolution and Crimean crisis are two very disctinct events, though connected. It's like stating that WW2 is part of WW1. We are having this discussion here because a moderator couldn't decide which of the new "Crimean crisis" threads should stay and decided to close both. Totally makes sense.
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On March 12 2014 00:36 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2014 22:00 Saryph wrote:
A couple pages back there was a link to the choices of the referendum next week. One was to join Russia, the other was to roll back the laws/constitution to an older version that would allow them to join Russia quickly. Is it really true that there is no option to maintain the status quo? Do people like zeo see this as legitimate if it is true? WTF how is this not reported more? First time I read about this in this thread here.
Its been reported in the NYTimes and the Canadian Globe and Mail....
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On March 12 2014 03:43 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:40 nunez wrote:On March 12 2014 03:20 m4ini wrote:
i will kill your dog on the 18th On March 12 2014 03:16 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I don't have dog, only 20 parakeets ): On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:
I shall flamethrower all of them on the 14th. good exchange. And its only me who is being blamed for derailing this thread
I made an analogy to the referendum, and why people go "ham now". You try (with almost every post i might add) to point at the americans and all the bad things they do.
Really wanna get into this? Did you at least read up whats what now, or are you still convinced there's no russian military in crimea?
I was ansering to a guy who wrote quite a lot about flaws in Russia/
If that was relevant to this thread so was my post. If it wasnt why didnt you indicate to that guy that he was wrong too?
Threadname Euromaidan, someone gives his opinion about russia, who invaded a foreign country. You want to start to give your opinion in the same thread about NSA, iraq, kosovo and every other incident the americans had.
Get why i say you're derailing? It's not about the guy being wrong or right. If you think he's wrong, counter his argument. You didn't.
I wish DeepElemBlues could post his "whataboutism" thing again.
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On March 12 2014 01:50 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:33 Simberto wrote:On March 12 2014 01:23 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 01:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:
[quote]
I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US.
The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum? Because people who aren't sheep or sheepherders rightly don't give a damn about a fake referendum where the two choices are 'yes, join Russia now,' and 'yes, join Russia later.' Maybe in Russia the definition of referendum is different from the definition everywhere else in the world that isn't run by fascist gangsters. You are lying. So in Europe and USA is OK to lie to prove its point? Or is it not? Maybe you are just ignorant? The second choise is to admit Crimea as part of Ukraine and return to constitution of 1992. And can you explain why that is the second option? Why is there no option "things stay like they are?" You might not be used to usual democratic procedures considering where you live, but that is how a referendum usually looks like. Also, a fair democratic referendum usually does NOT involve a lot of foreign guys with guns on the streets and in control of the information given to the population. This might seem really weird to you. People would accept a referendum under the following circumstances: a) options are "things stay like they are now" and "something else" not "join russia now" or "allow the parliament who wants to join russia and which is under control of russian soldiers to join russia in a few months" b) There are no russian troops around, and there are some sort of non-biased observers making sure the vote is actually fair. a) Its written crystal and clear confirm Crimea as part of Ukraine. As far as constitution 92 part is concerned I am not sure. b) I dont mind observers. I would welcome them even. The problem is USA and EU dont accept referendum thererfore they dont want to send observers.
You mean the observes that tried to get in to ascertain Putin and zeo's claim that there is a bloodbath against Russians by fascists going on and were shot at by brave Russian heroes?
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On March 12 2014 03:36 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:22 fleeze wrote:On March 12 2014 03:19 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 12 2014 03:16 fleeze wrote:On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. i'd say to stop the referendum in crimea you have to also stop the discussions of the current ukrainian government with the EU and the NATO. you can't force one country to step back while the others interfere as they want. also NOBODY knows what the ukrainian population wants. their government is not elected, doesn't represent the whole country and there wasn't a referendum about joining the EU or russian treaty on the economic side. the real question is: WHY do they have to choose? and why IMMEDIATELY? imho the referendum in crimea is just a reaction to this. The referendum, pushed by the russian government is a reaction to Putin's favoured leader of the country getting dethroned and people getting into power who aren't pro-russian, so is the invasion, that's about it. i don't think so. the ukraine joining the NATO and the economic talks with the EU where ukraine is forced to choose between a treaty with russia OR the EU is definately heavily threatening russian economic and more importantly security interests. but somehow nobody cares about this... that's why the NATO was never supposed to go over the old iron curtain. at least that's what russia was promised in the '90s when they had more power. was it? Where is that deal? I wonna have a look at it.
Gorbachev says we promised not to expand past Germany during the Two Plus Four Agreement and US State Officials involved in said treaty say no formal commitment stating that was made
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 12 2014 03:42 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:35 fleeze wrote:On March 12 2014 03:30 m4ini wrote:Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
How about you ask that in the threads where this is discussed? Stop fricking derailing the thread. the last thing "Do you approve revolution in Ukraine? " is key here and totally relevant to the discussion. russia doesn't approve, the west approves. that's why russia is claiming they reacting to a "coup" that overtook the ukraine illegally and the west is claiming they are protecting a peaceful revolution. That's why the EU is investigating the snipershots - it's not that the EU doesn't know it has flaws, it's that russia sent tanks etc into a foreign country, "to protect the citizens". No indication that those citizens were in danger anyway, but well. Now you have russians running rampart in crimea, setting fire to muslimic restaurants etc, basically the russians do everything they said the ukrainians would do. Im not saying russia should keep their mouth shut, thats bullshit - the eu interferes politically, so should russia. They dont, they interfere via military. Get the difference?
If I knew English better I would have written a lot more.
As USA showed by invading Iraq one can send tanks and troops in foreign territory.
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On March 12 2014 03:47 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:42 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:35 fleeze wrote:On March 12 2014 03:30 m4ini wrote:Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
How about you ask that in the threads where this is discussed? Stop fricking derailing the thread. the last thing "Do you approve revolution in Ukraine? " is key here and totally relevant to the discussion. russia doesn't approve, the west approves. that's why russia is claiming they reacting to a "coup" that overtook the ukraine illegally and the west is claiming they are protecting a peaceful revolution. That's why the EU is investigating the snipershots - it's not that the EU doesn't know it has flaws, it's that russia sent tanks etc into a foreign country, "to protect the citizens". No indication that those citizens were in danger anyway, but well. Now you have russians running rampart in crimea, setting fire to muslimic restaurants etc, basically the russians do everything they said the ukrainians would do. Im not saying russia should keep their mouth shut, thats bullshit - the eu interferes politically, so should russia. They dont, they interfere via military. Get the difference? If I knew English better I would have written a lot more. As USA showed by invading Iraq one can send tanks and troops in foreign territory.
Germany showed that 60 years ago, way before that. Does it legitimate the actions of america, or russia? What kind of warped logic is this?
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On March 12 2014 03:44 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:35 fleeze wrote:On March 12 2014 03:30 m4ini wrote:Do you approve invasion in Iraq and Afganistan? Do you aprove USA spying? Do you approve that Kosovo left Serbia? Do you approve revolution in Ukraine?
How about you ask that in the threads where this is discussed? Stop fricking derailing the thread. the last thing "Do you approve revolution in Ukraine? " is key here and totally relevant to the discussion. actually it's not. Ukrainian revolution and Crimean crisis are two very disctinct events, though connected. It's like stating that WW2 is part of WW1. We are having this discussion here because a moderator couldn't decide which of the new "Crimean crisis" threads should stay and decided to close both. Totally makes sense.
hey you made the right comparison here.
WW2 was a consequence of WW1.
crimean referendum is a consequence of the ukrainian revolution.
both are very much connected.
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On March 12 2014 03:07 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:05 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 03:04 Cheerio wrote:
There are reports from undisclosed sources that Yatsenyuk during his visit to Brussels received guarantees of NATO support in case of Russian military intervention into mainland Ukraine. In other words Yatsenyuk admitted that no inervention has happened yet. Are you for real, or are you trolling? Honest question, i'm baffled by so much ignorance.
Its not ignorance. Its a less well polished zeo.
1. Americans are also evil, lets talk about Iraq!
2. Fascist government in Kyiv is cause of all problems
3. There are no Russian troops, just local self defense force
4. Anyway Crimea has been part of Russia forever, also this referendum is totally legal, look at our government passing legal laws. Also, If fascist in Kyiv can do anything we can do anything. Also, Kosovo!
5. I dont support Putin, but this time he is right. (But dont ask me which party I support, just against Putin)
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/world/europe/ukraine.html
An editorial in Nezavisimaya Gazeta described a possible compromise: Mr. Putin would agree to recognize the new authorities in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, and drop the insistence on a return to the compromise agreement of Feb. 21, in return for some guarantee that Russia would continue to exert influence on Ukrainian politics.
In particular, Russia wants Ukraine to adopt a new constitution and a federal system that would grant a higher degree of autonomy to regions, allowing pro-Russian regions in the south and east to pursue their own policies. The editorial did not address the question of Crimea’s secession and possible annexation by Russia, which lawmakers in Moscow have vowed to support.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/opinion/why-russians-back-putin-on-ukraine.html?hpw&rref=opinion
I believe Yeltsin’s actions, and Putin’s, shaped a new politics of memory in Russia. The very term “revolution” has come to carry negative connotations for Russians. The Russian religious philosopher Nikolai Berdyaev and the writer Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, both of whom held a negative vision of any revolution, are often quoted in official speeches. This politics of memory resonates with today’s Russians — “stability” has become a core political value.
Nobody in Russia supports Yanukovych. But the immediate collapse of his deal with the opposition and European foreign ministers under the pressure of the revolutionary street provoked strong reservations even among Russians who are not supporters of Putin. Public opinion polls in Russia found that feelings of indignation among Russians viewing the images of burning barricades in Kiev grew from 13 percent in mid-December to 36 percent in mid-February. That same month, sociologists recorded a new emotion expressed by some 15 percent of respondents: fear. These emotions are undoubtedly a factor behind Putin’s actions.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 12 2014 03:29 Acertos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:16 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:10 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. If i tell you i will kill your dog on the 18th (or anything equally bad), do you wait for me to kill him or do you go apeshit right now? Edit Again, it's not about having a referendum. It's about having a fair referendum, which it is not. It's rigged. That's why people go ham. I don't have dog, only 20 parakeets ): To be honest, noone can guarantee that referendum's decision will be followed. I still hope that world giants will find some kind of consensus and everyone will be satisfied, at least, partly. And to guy who spoke about faschist Russia. Last elections in 2013 were amazingly good, without any shit votes. So don't lie. Idk if that was sacarsm or something but first Putin has been in power for more than 15yrs and bypassed the Constitution of not being able to be president three times in a row by.beimg prime minister. It s hallucinating, and the last elections which were these famous presidential elections were a total joke contested internationaly and by the opposition with corruption and people putting dozens of votes for whom they wanted without risking anything.
There are no candidates to be honest.
Every president elections there are 4-5 candidates with 2 being boring and old, one being Putin or Medvedev, one random guy who will get 0,3% because noone has idea about who is it and what can he do and last time there was Prokhorov as well, who is well-known for his "skills". People are really supporting Putin because a lot of people who vote remember shit which was happening in Russia since middle-90s and it's sky and earth how are we living now.
Last elections were local elections, in which, for example, Navalny got 28% in Moscow which is considered very high vote for someone from so-called "opposition".
On March 12 2014 03:20 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 03:16 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:10 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 03:06 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 03:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 12 2014 02:58 m4ini wrote:On March 12 2014 02:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
To be honest, i'm surprised than noone said here that Kosovo's referendum was absolutely same from neutral point of view, with US/NATO and Russia/China on different sides that it's right now in Crimea.
You are surprised that in a thread about ukraine and crimea there's no discussion about america and kosovo? Seriously? Not to mention that there was, over and over again. People just argue so hard about legitimacy of referendum in Crimea, like everyone was following rules in the past. Shit happens against lesser countries always, nothing can be done against it. Probably, same day, when every military will be disbanded and people will live in peaceful world without any troubles - then yes. Before it - no reason to argue about such stuff when every country has sins. Nobody argues the referendum. Everybody not under the influence of the russian propagandamachine knows it's bullshit. And everybody knows that the US did bullshit in the past as well, but that is not relevant for the topic at hand. If you feel better, leave americans out of the discussion for yourself. I don't have anything against Americans :D They're good people, at least, those who i know. Anyway, if people are going ham so hard before 16th, i hardly can imagine what can happen after. If i tell you i will kill your dog on the 18th (or anything equally bad), do you wait for me to kill him or do you go apeshit right now? Edit Again, it's not about having a referendum. It's about having a fair referendum, which it is not. It's rigged. That's why people go ham. I don't have dog, only 20 parakeets ): To be honest, noone can guarantee that referendum's decision will be followed. I still hope that world giants will find some kind of consensus and everyone will be satisfied, at least, partly. I shall flamethrower all of them on the 14th. Even if they're cute. You mad now or after i toasted them? And i agree, i don't believe that if crimea would vote "no" (that is, if they had the option for that), the referendum would be followed. Russian politicians etc press so hard for the referendum because they KNOW that there can't be a "no" though. And, don't get me wrong, it's not about you or even the blind people like Mike, but one of the reason that there is no consensus to be found is that your country is run by a dictatorship. It's not about russian people, never was. Show nested quote +i'd say to stop the referendum in crimea you have to also stop the discussions of the current ukrainian government with the EU and the NATO. you can't force one country to step back while the others interfere as they want.
I don't see german tanks patrolling the borders to crimea, or setting up minefields. Do you? No? Maybe that is because your comparison is borderline stupid.
I never get mad but fuck you. Ye, i totally understand you and to say the least, i don't like blind "patriots" by myself.
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There are no candidates to be honest.
And why is that, any idea?
I never get mad but fuck you. Ye, i totally understand you and to say the least, i don't like blind "patriots" by myself.
Not entirely sure what you're talking about.
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EPT
