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On March 10 2014 05:00 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 04:50 Liman wrote:On March 10 2014 04:38 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 10 2014 04:18 Liman wrote:
LoL they are just as bad as Putin.Ignoring what the half of population thinks and signing agreements with government that wasnt elected on democratic elections.Wow very democratic.And EU supports this ? WTF Is this serious news ? Err, the government currently in power is supported by 80% of the elected parliament... And the association agreement only provides a framework for working with the EU on matters including the upcoming bailout, it's not like they're joining the EU with this. That shit is just provoking pro russian population even more,not to mention russia. Those guys in Kiev are acting like idiots,instead of tying to calm the situation down and open some kind of negotiations with pro russian people,they do as they (and west) wish. Instead of making national unity government which would represent all ukranians until the elections they just ignore 20 million people. If they keep doing that i dont see how this can end well for anyone. Why the hell should they negotiate with the country who just invaded them?
Doesn't negotiation exist for exactly that purpose? To calm things down? Tense situations don't magically mend themselves, people need to talk. The junta has done absolutely nothing to distance themselves from the extremist elements that brought them to power, eastern Ukraine has a right to protect themselves from this self-proclaimed 'government'.
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What are you talking about? The party of regions is part of the transitional government. Should they develop split personality and talk to themselves? The question is whether to negotiate with Russia, but Russia does not talk to them - does not answer their calls, refused to meet in Paris, etc.
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On March 10 2014 05:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
What are you talking about? The party of regions is part of the transitional government. Should they develop split personality and talk to themselves? The question is whether to negotiate with Russia, but Russia does not talk to them - does not answer their calls, refused to meet in Paris, etc.
I'd be a member of the transitional government too if they put a gun to my head.
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On March 10 2014 05:36 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 05:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
What are you talking about? The party of regions is part of the transitional government. Should they develop split personality and talk to themselves? The question is whether to negotiate with Russia, but Russia does not talk to them - does not answer their calls, refused to meet in Paris, etc. I'd be a member of the transitional government too if they put a gun to my head.
So far the only people having guns put to their head are Russian Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea.
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On March 10 2014 05:31 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 05:00 Jaaaaasper wrote:On March 10 2014 04:50 Liman wrote:On March 10 2014 04:38 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 10 2014 04:18 Liman wrote:LoL they are just as bad as Putin.Ignoring what the half of population thinks and signing agreements with government that wasnt elected on democratic elections.Wow very democratic.And EU supports this ? WTF Is this serious news ? Err, the government currently in power is supported by 80% of the elected parliament... And the association agreement only provides a framework for working with the EU on matters including the upcoming bailout, it's not like they're joining the EU with this. That shit is just provoking pro russian population even more,not to mention russia. Those guys in Kiev are acting like idiots,instead of tying to calm the situation down and open some kind of negotiations with pro russian people,they do as they (and west) wish. Instead of making national unity government which would represent all ukranians until the elections they just ignore 20 million people. If they keep doing that i dont see how this can end well for anyone. Why the hell should they negotiate with the country who just invaded them? Doesn't negotiation exist for exactly that purpose? To calm things down? Tense situations don't magically mend themselves, people need to talk. The junta has done absolutely nothing to distance themselves from the extremist elements that brought them to power, eastern Ukraine has a right to protect themselves from this self-proclaimed 'government'.
“Vladimir Putin also drew the attention of his interlocutors to the absence of any effort by the authorities in Kiev to limit the riot of ultranationalist and radical forces in the capital and many other regions,”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/world/europe/developments-in-Ukraine.html?_r=0
zeo, saving people who dont want to register on NYT from having to do so to hear Putin's thoughts.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
just because the hostage takers call it an negotiation, doesnt it mean it isnt a hostage negotiation. u gotta include the context
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On March 10 2014 05:38 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 05:36 zeo wrote:On March 10 2014 05:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
What are you talking about? The party of regions is part of the transitional government. Should they develop split personality and talk to themselves? The question is whether to negotiate with Russia, but Russia does not talk to them - does not answer their calls, refused to meet in Paris, etc. I'd be a member of the transitional government too if they put a gun to my head. So far the only people having guns put to their head are Russian Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea.
Yeah, because brass knuckles and baseball bats are the signs of civilization
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 10 2014 05:41 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 05:38 Sub40APM wrote:On March 10 2014 05:36 zeo wrote:On March 10 2014 05:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
What are you talking about? The party of regions is part of the transitional government. Should they develop split personality and talk to themselves? The question is whether to negotiate with Russia, but Russia does not talk to them - does not answer their calls, refused to meet in Paris, etc. I'd be a member of the transitional government too if they put a gun to my head. So far the only people having guns put to their head are Russian Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea. Yeah, because brass knuckles and baseball bats are the signs of civilization + Show Spoiler +
My dear zeo, I am already confident in your photo shopping skills, I think you should continue practicing repeating Putin vebatim for now.
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negotiations with pro russian people
Please read what i wrote.
Pro russian as 20 million people living in ukraine,not russian government.
Its really hard to have a conversation with someone who refuses to listen and understand what one is saying.
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On March 10 2014 05:41 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 05:38 Sub40APM wrote:On March 10 2014 05:36 zeo wrote:On March 10 2014 05:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
What are you talking about? The party of regions is part of the transitional government. Should they develop split personality and talk to themselves? The question is whether to negotiate with Russia, but Russia does not talk to them - does not answer their calls, refused to meet in Paris, etc. I'd be a member of the transitional government too if they put a gun to my head. So far the only people having guns put to their head are Russian Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea. Yeah, because brass knuckles and baseball bats are the signs of civilization + Show Spoiler +
You are right, propaganda has not quit this thread yet. You are still here.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 10 2014 05:54 Liman wrote:Please read what i wrote. Pro russian as 20 million people living in ukraine,not russian government. Its really hard to have a conversation with someone who refuses to listen and understand what one is saying.
wat kind of negotiations? if u r talking about protection against the nazi elements, thats ok. the eu has also condemned them.
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Well it isn't subtle, but if Russia wouldn't rattle around on Crimea, negotiations wouldn't include them!
Both Russia and the EU made propositions to the Ukraine to help them in their financial crisis! But after the protests and the fall of the elected president it was all "Ukraine shows us, that they want to be in the EU/NATO/...". Nobody would have talked to Russia after that, but now they have to! Like I said: Maybe not the nicest way (...) but they are back at the table! And THAT is, what Russia wanted for now!
But back to the overall shenanigans in the background. I found an article from 2009
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-67871653.html
Sorry, it's in German. But the interesting parts are about promises done in 1990, that the NATO will not "go after" eastern countries, like Poland, Hungary, ... but if you check: They are all members of the NATO now!
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO
(Quote from there: Mikhail Gorbachev reportedly agreed to allow German reunification within NATO after being promised that NATO would not expand "one inch to the east."[3])
Russia always complained about that, but never put their foot down! Now with the Ukraine, they are doing it. Probably because Crimea is too important for Russia to let it be "NATO soil".
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On March 10 2014 06:42 Geisterkarle wrote:Well it isn't subtle, but if Russia wouldn't rattle around on Crimea, negotiations wouldn't include them! Both Russia and the EU made propositions to the Ukraine to help them in their financial crisis! But after the protests and the fall of the elected president it was all "Ukraine shows us, that they want to be in the EU/NATO/...". Nobody would have talked to Russia after that, but now they have to! Like I said: Maybe not the nicest way (...) but they are back at the table! And THAT is, what Russia wanted for now! But back to the overall shenanigans in the background. I found an article from 2009 http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-67871653.htmlSorry, it's in German. But the interesting parts are about promises done in 1990, that the NATO will not "go after" eastern countries, like Poland, Hungary, ... but if you check: They are all members of the NATO now! See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO(Quote from there: Mikhail Gorbachev reportedly agreed to allow German reunification within NATO after being promised that NATO would not expand "one inch to the east."[3]) Russia always complained about that, but never put their foot down! Now with the Ukraine, they are doing it. Probably because Crimea is too important for Russia to let it be "NATO soil".
See, that I get.
From what I understand Crimea is a very important strategic peninsula for the Russian army and navy.
I can understand not wanting to let that fall under NATO membership.
Honestly, if the people of Crimea really wants to join with Russia, then let them.
The problem is the way it is done, through an invasion.
Any referendum in Crimea in its current state will be illegitimate
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On March 10 2014 06:03 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 05:54 Liman wrote:
negotiations with pro russian people
Please read what i wrote. Pro russian as 20 million people living in ukraine,not russian government. Its really hard to have a conversation with someone who refuses to listen and understand what one is saying. wat kind of negotiations? if u r talking about protection against the nazi elements, thats ok. the eu has also condemned them.
Well that would be a good start.After that they should talk what is it that most Ukrainians want for the future of their country.You cant have 50 % telling other 50% what to do,that leads to conflict.
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I seriously doubt it is 50% anymore after Russia invaded their country. Look at this thread as an example; eastern Ukrainians who were hostile towards pro-maidan posters are now acting like friends, combined due to their feelings against the Russian invasion.
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On March 10 2014 06:42 Geisterkarle wrote:
Well it isn't subtle, but if Russia wouldn't rattle around on Crimea, negotiations wouldn't include them!
Both Russia and the EU made propositions to the Ukraine to help them in their financial crisis! But after the protests and the fall of the elected president it was all "Ukraine shows us, that they want to be in the EU/NATO/...".
No politician before the invasion wanted Ukraine in NATO, the only elected politician who tried that was Yushenko and he received 5% of the vote in the 2010 elections. Ukraine was fine with being a neutral country like Finland -- obviously now that the value of neutrality in the eyes of Russia has been demonstrated I wouldnt be surprised if there is an increase in pro-NATO sentiment.
But back to the overall shenanigans in the background. I found an article from 2009 http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-67871653.htmlSorry, it's in German. But the interesting parts are about promises done in 1990, that the NATO will not "go after" eastern countries, like Poland, Hungary, ... but if you check: They are all members of the NATO now! And Ukraine-NATO enlargement has been put on hold since mid late 2000s...
Isnt this just the repeat of that professor you posted? NATO is already literally touching Russian Federation in the Baltic states. No one seems to have died, except of course now the Estonians or Latvians dont have to worry about 'local self defense forces' of Russians stooping up to defend themselves against 'genocide.'
Ukraine couldnt join NATO while hosting Russian bases and Russian bases had been extended until 2047.
But you do highlight an important problem -- there is the real world and there is the world in which the Russian leadership inhabit. So if you are the Russian leadership and view ukraine as haven of fascist then its logical that you dont want to negotiate with Nazis. The problem is, in the real world, how are countries supposed to deal with a state that allows its imagination dictate its policy? Just last year the Russian Federation released a document on "Human Rights Abuses in the EU" that focused on the promotion of "Homosexual degenercy" as a human rights violation of EU citizen, ie the very act of promoting gay rights is a repression of people. What should be a compromise to a world view like that?
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This is actually a crucial issue, I was surprised it had not been addressed properly before.
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No Crimea no Russian bases, problem solved!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4tv4l5V.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7FZ9Q8T.jpg)
