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On March 02 2014 09:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Btw, Ukrainian oligarhs decided to take responsibility for their native regions instead of facing the opportunity to leave everything on Putin's decisions. We're going to have a lot of new governors in eastern cities very soon.
Which ones though, the guy who used to own Metalist or the guy who owns Metalist but no one has ever seen a picture of. Its interesting because its not like there is 1 dominant oligarch in each Eastern city...Yanukovich family made many new ones and some of old Kuchma ones are struggling now, like I mentionted Pinchuk used to be a top 3 Oligarch but now things are looking...dicey...
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On March 02 2014 09:20 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 09:17 Gorsameth wrote:On March 02 2014 09:14 kukarachaa wrote:
Just curious, I see a lot of criticism from both sides, but what is a good solution for an area like Crimea, that has historically been Russian, has a vast majority of people that consider themselves Russian, want to join Russia, don't want anything to do with the current government of Ukraine. Personally I know its not that easy, but seems like its logical they join Russia. So let them decide that themselves. Why does it need to happen with a Russian Army standing in the street? The problem isn't Crimea's desire of independence. Its about Russia invading the Ukraine over non existent reasons.(so called aggression against Russian minority that isn't happening) I don't think the current government will ever allow them to decide for themselves, since it will set a bad precedent for other Eastern Ukraine Territories that are in a similar situation.
This kind of attitude always confuses me.
The actual government in Ukraine has said nothing about any kind of actions yet, and the actual government in Russia has begun the actual process of annexing parts of Ukraine it claims legitimacy over because of race of the inhabitant but its the Ukrainian fascists we have to be on guard for.
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On March 02 2014 09:20 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 09:17 Gorsameth wrote:On March 02 2014 09:14 kukarachaa wrote:
Just curious, I see a lot of criticism from both sides, but what is a good solution for an area like Crimea, that has historically been Russian, has a vast majority of people that consider themselves Russian, want to join Russia, don't want anything to do with the current government of Ukraine. Personally I know its not that easy, but seems like its logical they join Russia. So let them decide that themselves. Why does it need to happen with a Russian Army standing in the street? The problem isn't Crimea's desire of independence. Its about Russia invading the Ukraine over non existent reasons.(so called aggression against Russian minority that isn't happening) I don't think the current government will ever allow them to decide for themselves, since it will set a bad precedent for other Eastern Ukraine Territories that are in a similar situation.
Are you speaking about Russia or Ukraine, i am confused.
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On March 02 2014 09:23 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 09:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Btw, Ukrainian oligarhs decided to take responsibility for their native regions instead of facing the opportunity to leave everything on Putin's decisions. We're going to have a lot of new governors in eastern cities very soon. Which ones though, the guy who used to own Metalist or the guy who owns Metalist but no one has ever seen a picture of. Its interesting because its not like there is 1 dominant oligarch in each Eastern city...Yanukovich family made many new ones and some of old Kuchma ones are struggling now, like I mentionted Pinchuk used to be a top 3 Oligarch but now things are looking...dicey...
Igor Kolomoyskiy - owner of Privat Bank (one of the largest banks in Ukraine) and FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk is suggestet to become a governor of Dnipropetrovsk.
Alexander Yaroslavkiy - head of DCH group, owner of large line of tradecenters "Karavan" across the country, owner of few 5 stars hotels, and ex-owner of FC Metalist Kharkov - suggested to become a governor of Kharkov.
Rinat Akhmetov - suggested to become a governor of Donetsk. He's one of the very richest and powerful persons in Ukraine.
Vadim Novinskiy will be suggested as a representative of Kiev in Crimea.
And so on:
Official statement should be made tomorrow by Turchinov
Source
More to see
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On March 02 2014 09:14 kukarachaa wrote:
Just curious, I see a lot of criticism from both sides, but what is a good solution for an area like Crimea, that has historically been Russian, has a vast majority of people that consider themselves Russian, want to join Russia, don't want anything to do with the current government of Ukraine. Personally I know its not that easy, but seems like its logical they join Russia.
The thing is, this question comes down to the definition of a nation state. If every local majority in any state can declare itself independent, than the whole system of nation states has to be put in question.
Like, I see you are from the US. So as an example, what would happen if some Indian tribes in Montana would hold a referendum and then declare themselves as part of Canada from now on? Democracy right?
What I mean is, there are hundreds of places in this world where a local majority is ethnically 'foreign' to its current government. Still history determined them to be part of that nation and not another.
It is not as simple as just 'roll back history' or 'let them all decide for themselves'. It is complicated.
Crimea, that has historically been Russian Very thin ice: Crimea in the 20th and 21st centuries
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On March 02 2014 09:31 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 09:23 Sub40APM wrote:On March 02 2014 09:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Btw, Ukrainian oligarhs decided to take responsibility for their native regions instead of facing the opportunity to leave everything on Putin's decisions. We're going to have a lot of new governors in eastern cities very soon. Which ones though, the guy who used to own Metalist or the guy who owns Metalist but no one has ever seen a picture of. Its interesting because its not like there is 1 dominant oligarch in each Eastern city...Yanukovich family made many new ones and some of old Kuchma ones are struggling now, like I mentionted Pinchuk used to be a top 3 Oligarch but now things are looking...dicey... Igor Kolomoyskiy - owner of Privat Bank (one of the largest banks in Ukraine) and FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk is suggestet to become a governor of Dnipropetrovsk. Alexander Yaroslavkiy - head of DCH group, owner of large line of tradecenters "Karavan" across the country, owner of few 5 stars hotels, and ex-owner of FC Metalist Kharkov - suggested to become a governor of Kharkov. Rinat Akhmetov - suggested to become a governor of Donetsk. He's one of the very richest and powerful persons in Ukraine. Vadim Novinskiy will be suggested as a representative of Kiev in Crimea. And so on: Official statement should be made tomorrow by Turchinov Source
But thats what I mean, Yaroslavskiy was forced to give up Metalist and probably some of his money to Kurchenko. Akhmetov is may or may not hate Poroshenko and so on. At least until the Swiss and the Austrians formally take the assets of Azarov/Yanukovich/their friends away from them on paper those guys are as rich as the 'old' oligarchs.
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On March 02 2014 09:32 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 09:14 kukarachaa wrote:
Just curious, I see a lot of criticism from both sides, but what is a good solution for an area like Crimea, that has historically been Russian, has a vast majority of people that consider themselves Russian, want to join Russia, don't want anything to do with the current government of Ukraine. Personally I know its not that easy, but seems like its logical they join Russia. The thing is, this question comes down to the definition of a nation state. If every local majority in any state can declare itself independent, than the whole system of nation states has to be put in question. Like, I see you are from the US. So as an example, what would happen if some Indian tribes in Montana would hold a referendum and then declare themselves as part of Canada from now on? Democracy right? What I mean is, there are hundreds of places in this world where a local majority is ethnically 'foreign' to its current government. Still history determined them to be part of that nation and not another. It is not as simple as just 'roll back history' or 'let them all decide for themselves'. It is complicated.
Better example where there is actual a law on the books about what happens if a province with a majority of an ethnic minority wishes to leave is Canada.
The Clarity Act specifies the paths which a province can declare independence.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/clarifying-the-clarity-act/article586395/
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On March 02 2014 09:39 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 09:31 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:23 Sub40APM wrote:On March 02 2014 09:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Btw, Ukrainian oligarhs decided to take responsibility for their native regions instead of facing the opportunity to leave everything on Putin's decisions. We're going to have a lot of new governors in eastern cities very soon. Which ones though, the guy who used to own Metalist or the guy who owns Metalist but no one has ever seen a picture of. Its interesting because its not like there is 1 dominant oligarch in each Eastern city...Yanukovich family made many new ones and some of old Kuchma ones are struggling now, like I mentionted Pinchuk used to be a top 3 Oligarch but now things are looking...dicey... Igor Kolomoyskiy - owner of Privat Bank (one of the largest banks in Ukraine) and FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk is suggestet to become a governor of Dnipropetrovsk. Alexander Yaroslavkiy - head of DCH group, owner of large line of tradecenters "Karavan" across the country, owner of few 5 stars hotels, and ex-owner of FC Metalist Kharkov - suggested to become a governor of Kharkov. Rinat Akhmetov - suggested to become a governor of Donetsk. He's one of the very richest and powerful persons in Ukraine. Vadim Novinskiy will be suggested as a representative of Kiev in Crimea. And so on: Official statement should be made tomorrow by Turchinov Source But thats what I mean, Yaroslavskiy was forced to give up Metalist and probably some of his money to Kurchenko. Akhmetov is may or may not hate Poroshenko and so on. At least until the Swiss and the Austrians formally take the assets of Azarov/Yanukovich/their friends away from them on paper those guys are as rich as the 'old' oligarchs.
Yaroslavkiy is very respected person in Kharkov, although he was always trying to avoid political questions, if he will decide to become a governor, he'll gain most of votes easily, without corruption, simply cause he made a lot for city progress and development.
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That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)?
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On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)?
bang on? I am pretty sure that if the Japanese parliament passed a law that says due to increased anti-Japanese sentiment in China, Japan has the right to protect its citizens and property by occupying Shanghai China would flip its shit.
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On March 02 2014 10:07 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)? bang on? I am pretty sure that if the Japanese parliament passed a law that says due to increased anti-Japanese sentiment in China, Japan has the right to protect its citizens and property by occupying Shanghai China would flip its shit.
Thank you for the hilarious strawman instead of actually talking about the issue. A more apt comparison would be the USA parliament passing a law that says we are going to protect the citizens of Iraq (not even their own) by overthrowing a government that was keeping it stable, then blaming Russia for something not nearly as unreasonable 10 years later, but carry on with the circlejerk if it makes you feel better.
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On March 02 2014 10:10 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 10:07 Sub40APM wrote:On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)? bang on? I am pretty sure that if the Japanese parliament passed a law that says due to increased anti-Japanese sentiment in China, Japan has the right to protect its citizens and property by occupying Shanghai China would flip its shit. Thank you for the hilarious strawman instead of actually talking about the issue.
of China selectively supporting interventions in foreign states by their allies -- and themselves -- when it suits them? is that what the issue you wanted to discuss here?
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On March 02 2014 10:12 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 10:10 Feartheguru wrote:On March 02 2014 10:07 Sub40APM wrote:On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)? bang on? I am pretty sure that if the Japanese parliament passed a law that says due to increased anti-Japanese sentiment in China, Japan has the right to protect its citizens and property by occupying Shanghai China would flip its shit. Thank you for the hilarious strawman instead of actually talking about the issue. of China selectively supporting interventions in foreign states by their allies -- and themselves -- when it suits them? is that what the issue you wanted to discuss here?
Yup, exactly, what you stated above is exactly what every country does, so the issue here is your hypocrisy when it comes to China.
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On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)?
Im laughing right now.
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On March 02 2014 10:15 zeonmx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)? Im laughing right now.
Hey, what a coincidence, me too!
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On March 02 2014 10:15 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 10:15 zeonmx wrote:On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)? Im laughing right now. Hey, what a coincidence, me too!
laughing at you and your conclusion that I'm anti-russia, anti-china. Few posts ago, I was called pro-russia propagandist.
It hurts my sides...
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On March 02 2014 10:22 zeonmx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 10:15 Feartheguru wrote:On March 02 2014 10:15 zeonmx wrote:On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)? Im laughing right now. Hey, what a coincidence, me too! laughing at you and your conclusion that I'm anti-russia, anti-china. Few posts ago, I was called pro-russia propagandist. It hurts my sides...
Not sure why that's funny but I'm always glad to make people laugh. Make sure to get a checkup for your sides though, could be something serious.
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On March 02 2014 10:24 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 10:22 zeonmx wrote:On March 02 2014 10:15 Feartheguru wrote:On March 02 2014 10:15 zeonmx wrote:On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)? Im laughing right now. Hey, what a coincidence, me too! laughing at you and your conclusion that I'm anti-russia, anti-china. Few posts ago, I was called pro-russia propagandist. It hurts my sides... Not sure why that's funny but I'm always glad to make people laugh. Make sure to get a checkup for your sides though, could be something serious. Did you guys even read the article?
This commentary in a Chinese paper is stating simply common knowledge, that even western and US papers agree on: part of the US population / politicians are stuck in cold war, i.e. Cheney and the far right.
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On March 02 2014 10:31 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 10:24 Feartheguru wrote:On March 02 2014 10:22 zeonmx wrote:On March 02 2014 10:15 Feartheguru wrote:On March 02 2014 10:15 zeonmx wrote:On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)? Im laughing right now. Hey, what a coincidence, me too! laughing at you and your conclusion that I'm anti-russia, anti-china. Few posts ago, I was called pro-russia propagandist. It hurts my sides... Not sure why that's funny but I'm always glad to make people laugh. Make sure to get a checkup for your sides though, could be something serious. Did you guys even read the article? This commentary in a Chinese paper is stating simply common knowledge, that even western and US papers agree on: part of the US population / politician are stuck in cold war, i.e. Cheney and the far right.
Yes, and I wanted to point out some of the hypocrisy in this thread regarding Russia's actions (and more generally China's actions and their discussion in other threads) and I think it rang pretty true if you see Sub40APM's response above. The person I quoted in hindsight wasn't part of the hypocrisy so my quoting him didn't make much sense, oops .. I pretty much picked one at random since it was mostly a circlejerk.
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On March 02 2014 10:35 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 10:31 lord_nibbler wrote:On March 02 2014 10:24 Feartheguru wrote:On March 02 2014 10:22 zeonmx wrote:On March 02 2014 10:15 Feartheguru wrote:On March 02 2014 10:15 zeonmx wrote:On March 02 2014 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)? Im laughing right now. Hey, what a coincidence, me too! laughing at you and your conclusion that I'm anti-russia, anti-china. Few posts ago, I was called pro-russia propagandist. It hurts my sides... Not sure why that's funny but I'm always glad to make people laugh. Make sure to get a checkup for your sides though, could be something serious. Did you guys even read the article? This commentary in a Chinese paper is stating simply common knowledge, that even western and US papers agree on: part of the US population / politician are stuck in cold war, i.e. Cheney and the far right. Yes, and I wanted to point out some of the hypocrisy in this thread regarding Russia's actions (and more generally China's actions and their discussion in other threads) and I think it rang pretty true if you see Sub40APM's response above. The person I quoted in hindsight wasn't part of the hypocrisy so my quoting him didn't make much sense, oops .. Yes. A country that has acted badly in one stance has no right to speak against the bad actions of another country in a totally different context. We should all just follow the principle that might makes right and prepare for nuclear armed Taiwan and Japan.
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EPT
