"Canada has suspended its engagement in preparations for the G-8 Summit, currently planned for Sochi, and the Canadian ambassador in Moscow is being recalled for consultations,"
On March 02 2014 12:35 Sub40APM wrote: Damn, Canada showing a surprising amount of sack.
"Canada has suspended its engagement in preparations for the G-8 Summit, currently planned for Sochi, and the Canadian ambassador in Moscow is being recalled for consultations,"
Maybe hes worried that after complains about Fascist Canadians oppressing helpless Russians, Putin wont have any choice but to deploy troops to Toronto to protect them, against fascists.
On March 02 2014 12:35 Sub40APM wrote: Damn, Canada showing a surprising amount of sack.
"Canada has suspended its engagement in preparations for the G-8 Summit, currently planned for Sochi, and the Canadian ambassador in Moscow is being recalled for consultations,"
Maybe hes worried that after complains about Fascist Canadians oppressing helpless Russians, Putin wont have any choice but to deploy troops to Toronto to protect them, against fascists.
No he's worried about the Quebecois separatists that might get ideas about joining their real brethren in France. Indeed, France has the right to protect French speaking citizens of a territory they formerly owned!
Oh looky here, China taking sides with Russia. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles?
That article seems pretty bang on, but of course, instead of refuting completely valid points you're here to perpetuate anti-Russian anti-Chinese rhetoric like you've been trained to do. Who didn't see this shit coming from miles (away)?
Im laughing right now.
Hey, what a coincidence, me too!
laughing at you and your conclusion that I'm anti-russia, anti-china. Few posts ago, I was called pro-russia propagandist.
It hurts my sides...
Not sure why that's funny but I'm always glad to make people laugh. Make sure to get a checkup for your sides though, could be something serious.
Did you guys even read the article? This commentary in a Chinese paper is stating simply common knowledge, that even western and US papers agree on: part of the US population / politician are stuck in cold war, i.e. Cheney and the far right.
Yes, and I wanted to point out some of the hypocrisy in this thread regarding Russia's actions (and more generally China's actions and their discussion in other threads) and I think it rang pretty true if you see Sub40APM's response above. The person I quoted in hindsight wasn't part of the hypocrisy so my quoting him didn't make much sense, oops .. I pretty much picked one at random since it was mostly a circlejerk.
So you're admitting that you didn't even bother reading up on the conversations you're talking about and just threw that in there because you were already convinced that the people were acting like you thought they would anyway?
EDIT: And why exactly are you calling Americans hypocrits for things they had no personal involvement in (and which are also a good bit more complicated than you're portraying here and far less bad than the things the USSR/Russia has done), just because they condemn the acts of Putin? Even IF they would have been the ones to, let's say, launch the drone strikes, how exactly would that make them hypocrites? The situations are quite different and you're acting as if every American who condemns Putin's actions doesn't comdemn all (or atleast some) of the stuff you mentioned here. For somebody who talks about "anti-chinese and anti-russian rhetoric" you show a suprising lack of the ability to differentiate and look at the actual people you're talking to instead of just the picture you have of them in your mind, the quote in this post is the best example for that. It seems to me like you're the hypocrite since you condemn and insult people here randomely based on opinions you had before you even decided not to read their posts, so you treat them as you would treat the silly image you have in your head instead of seeing them as individuals. Disappointing, to say the least.
I'm calling them hypocrites because they are condemning Russia for the same thing that they themselves do all the time. That is the definition of hypocrisy. Pointing out that the USSR has done worse things (and I agree) does not factor into the point I make. That's the only statement I made in this thread.
People are attacking me for all sorts of unrelated stuff, like me supporting what Russia is doing (not true), semantics about the details (I don't need to prove every one I listed, just Iraq and Chile makes the U.S.A. hypocrites in this case, some are less bad then others, why get bogged down in the details of what happened in Nicaragua.
You're right I don't see people as individuals, this is an internet forum and I don't bother taking the time to analyse the post history of each person to figure out their specific views. No where did I admit I didn't read through the posts, his post just seemed to be part of the circlejerk while it wasn't, if I looked back to his earlier posts I would have realized, but again, why would I bother, just so I don't make this mistake? Not worth the time.
On March 02 2014 10:50 DeepElemBlues wrote: Oh hey look, time for some more cheap anti-Americanism masquerading as principle.
Well, there's plenty to work with there, you gotta admit.
Only to people who forget or don't care about when the Soviet Union was sending tanks into Czechoslovakia. Or Poland (to their credit even the commie Poles said they'd fight back and the Russians backed down). Or Hungary. Or giving Kim il-Sun the weapons and the green light to invade South Korea. Or invading Afghanistan. Or the fifty or so other things the USSR did that were all worse than anything the US did during the Cold War.
Again, I agree with everything said here, but it has 0 relevance to my argument, that circlejerking about how bad Russia is behaving is hypocritical. Just one example is necessary, so by admitting Chile fits under the criteria my job is done. Sorry for not taking the time to respond seriously to your rants.
P.S. wasn't even trying to bash America, nothing wrong with countries securing their interests. If the U.S. can improve their geopolitical position then why not, the world is not fair. Seeing people bash Russia and China for doing the same thing irks me. A lot of people are caught on my Vietnam comment, yes, saying "a tiny portion of the population wanting the U.S. backed government" was an exaggeration, nevertheless it was far less than the portion that didn't want the U.S. Does it matter if it's 10% or 30%, the point is they were there against the will of the people.
On March 02 2014 10:50 DeepElemBlues wrote: Oh hey look, time for some more cheap anti-Americanism masquerading as principle.
Well, there's plenty to work with there, you gotta admit.
Only to people who forget or don't care about when the Soviet Union was sending tanks into Czechoslovakia. Or Poland (to their credit even the commie Poles said they'd fight back and the Russians backed down). Or Hungary. Or giving Kim il-Sun the weapons and the green light to invade South Korea. Or invading Afghanistan. Or the fifty or so other things the USSR did that were all worse than anything the US did during the Cold War.
Again, I agree with everything said here, but it has 0 relevance to my argument, that circlejerking about how bad Russia is behaving is hypocritical. Just one example is necessary, so by admitting Chile fits under the criteria my job is done. Sorry for not taking the time to respond seriously to your rants.
P.S. wasn't even trying to bash America, nothing wrong with countries securing their interests. If the U.S. can improve their geopolitical position then why not, the world is not fair. Seeing people bash Russia and China for doing the same thing irks me. A lot of people are caught on my Vietnam comment, yes, saying "a tiny portion of the population wanting the U.S. backed government" was an exaggeration, nevertheless it was far less than the portion that didn't want the U.S. Does it matter if it's 10% or 30%, the point is they were there against the will of the people.
The U.S. sucked, and lied. The soviet union sucked, lied, and did horrible things to their own people on a regular basis.
On March 02 2014 05:47 darkness wrote: Do you guys think that Mitt Romney would have done better in this situation?
No idea but I do think Obama holds back too much at the moment and the same goes for the EU. It's pretty clear now that Russia wants to expand its sphere of influence and that is not in our interest.
edit: The EU is acting spineless as well :
In a statement, French President Francois Hollande urged European countries to take swift and decisive action to find a way out of the crisis in Crimea when their foreign ministers meet in Brussels on Monday.
I mean meeting on Monday what the fuck is that....
"that is not in our interest". I think it is a key to position of most posters in this thread. Everybody sees the situation through their geopolitical needs and just as an afterthought covers it in ethical clothes. Who cares about Ukrainians or Crimeans or Tatars. The important thing is that our side gets stronger and the "enemy" weaker.
Not reallty, I'm convinced the EU is the best way to go for Ukraine in the long run.
(a) instead of hrivnya they will be part of the ruble zone, suffer from the same dutch disease as the rest of the russian economy (b) since there is no longer a strategic interest to prop up these oligarchs in the East Ukraine, the bigger, Russian oligarchs who occupy the same industrial sector will simply take over those factories and have them shut down. Its already began with Victor Pinchuk, the son in law of the former President Kuchma. Its going to happen to the rest of them too.
At least help from the west will give the country a chance to develop their economy and democracy in a good way which will never happen with Russia.
I agree with the fact that EU is the best way for Ukraine to go. I am not convinced that the economic analysis above is correct. They are too much connected with Russian economy and whatever you can say about Russian economy, Ukrainian is worse. So separation from the Russian markets would not be a good thing. Of course in a very long term if they join EU then they will be better off, but short-to-medium term nothing good will come from this. Of course that does not mean that being annexed by Russia would be good.
On March 02 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Well I thought the Russians already had the military invasion handled pretty well. I was trying to point out that all of the pro-Russian activity going on lately isn't necessarily homegrown.
You still think that thousands of people came to Ukraine, and Donetsk, Kharkiv, Odessa, Crimea areas support illegal authorities from Kiev?
Oh no, that the clashes broke out only after the Olympics and Putin no longer had to pretend to be a nice guy is just pure coincidence, as is the escalation of violence after Russian rubber stamp parliament passed an authorization of invasion. Just many many coincidences.
Lol, you think I support Putin or what? And there is no violence you mentioned by military forces yet.
You didn't answer the question though. It's important because if you agree that the mentioned areas do not support the current situation in Kiev, many talks related to military intervention will be related to Putin only and not Russians.
Oh no. You are a wholly independent thinking man who really hates Putin yet also maintains the party line because...fascists are everywhere.
Frankly you are about as biased as zeo, just the other way around. I know a lot of Russians that oppose Putin (to a point of some of them emigrating due to threats of arrests) and yet they also "maintain party line". Maybe it is because you see things through black-and-white glasses and all nuances miss you completely.
You mean the way you emigrated to Czech Republic and maintain Russian line here?
Nope, I am Polish and was born in Czech Republic. But thank you for showing that I was completely correct. Anything that does not fit your black and white view of the situation means that it is just a work of Russian propaganda.
On March 02 2014 05:47 darkness wrote: Do you guys think that Mitt Romney would have done better in this situation?
No idea but I do think Obama holds back too much at the moment and the same goes for the EU. It's pretty clear now that Russia wants to expand its sphere of influence and that is not in our interest.
edit: The EU is acting spineless as well :
In a statement, French President Francois Hollande urged European countries to take swift and decisive action to find a way out of the crisis in Crimea when their foreign ministers meet in Brussels on Monday.
I mean meeting on Monday what the fuck is that....
"that is not in our interest". I think it is a key to position of most posters in this thread. Everybody sees the situation through their geopolitical needs and just as an afterthought covers it in ethical clothes. Who cares about Ukrainians or Crimeans or Tatars. The important thing is that our side gets stronger and the "enemy" weaker.
Not reallty, I'm convinced the EU is the best way to go for Ukraine in the long run.
Like Sub40apm said:
(a) instead of hrivnya they will be part of the ruble zone, suffer from the same dutch disease as the rest of the russian economy (b) since there is no longer a strategic interest to prop up these oligarchs in the East Ukraine, the bigger, Russian oligarchs who occupy the same industrial sector will simply take over those factories and have them shut down. Its already began with Victor Pinchuk, the son in law of the former President Kuchma. Its going to happen to the rest of them too.
At least help from the west will give the country a chance to develop their economy and democracy in a good way which will never happen with Russia.
I agree with the fact that EU is the best way for Ukraine to go.
On March 02 2014 08:02 Knuty wrote: not saying maiden will make all corruption go away instantly,but when common people in your country protest in the streets while getting beat up , shot and arrested, somethings not right. And to call those people thieves and nazis is just .....
don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country
Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.
Oh wait you cant....
Man, this is pathetic. Medics shot by police snipers? Any proof? The police started firing live ammo long after several policemen died to gunshot wounds. He doesn't need to go find any videos, since you are spouting your fantasies.
You just lying. Here is the medic-volonteer girl shot by sniper
On March 02 2014 08:02 Knuty wrote: not saying maiden will make all corruption go away instantly,but when common people in your country protest in the streets while getting beat up , shot and arrested, somethings not right. And to call those people thieves and nazis is just .....
don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country
Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.
Oh wait you cant....
Man, this is pathetic. Medics shot by police snipers? Any proof? The police started firing live ammo long after several policemen died to gunshot wounds. He doesn't need to go find any videos, since you are spouting your fantasies.
so where is the proof it was police sniper? and what benefits for police this shot will bring? only negatives - crowd will be even more angry and kill policeman after that
and who is benefactor if crowd is more angry and impulsive? definitely not Yanykovich and polivce
and shots in the neck are trademark of british snipers
On March 02 2014 08:02 Knuty wrote: not saying maiden will make all corruption go away instantly,but when common people in your country protest in the streets while getting beat up , shot and arrested, somethings not right. And to call those people thieves and nazis is just .....
don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country
Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.
Oh wait you cant....
Man, this is pathetic. Medics shot by police snipers? Any proof? The police started firing live ammo long after several policemen died to gunshot wounds. He doesn't need to go find any videos, since you are spouting your fantasies.
so where is the proof it was police sniper? and what benefits for police this shot will bring? only negatives - crowd will be even more angry and kill policeman after that
and who is benefactor if crowd is more angry and impulsive? definitely not Yanykovich and polivce
and shots in the neck are trademark of british snipers
On March 02 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Well I thought the Russians already had the military invasion handled pretty well. I was trying to point out that all of the pro-Russian activity going on lately isn't necessarily homegrown.
You still think that thousands of people came to Ukraine, and Donetsk, Kharkiv, Odessa, Crimea areas support illegal authorities from Kiev?
Oh no, that the clashes broke out only after the Olympics and Putin no longer had to pretend to be a nice guy is just pure coincidence, as is the escalation of violence after Russian rubber stamp parliament passed an authorization of invasion. Just many many coincidences.
Lol, you think I support Putin or what? And there is no violence you mentioned by military forces yet.
You didn't answer the question though. It's important because if you agree that the mentioned areas do not support the current situation in Kiev, many talks related to military intervention will be related to Putin only and not Russians.
Oh no. You are a wholly independent thinking man who really hates Putin yet also maintains the party line because...fascists are everywhere.
Frankly you are about as biased as zeo, just the other way around. I know a lot of Russians that oppose Putin (to a point of some of them emigrating due to threats of arrests) and yet they also "maintain party line". Maybe it is because you see things through black-and-white glasses and all nuances miss you completely.
You mean the way you emigrated to Czech Republic and maintain Russian line here?
Nope, I am Polish and was born in Czech Republic. But thank you for showing that I was completely correct. Anything that does not fit your black and white view of the situation means that it is just a work of Russian propaganda.
Ya, you are right, how crazy of me to think you arent another Russian propagandist, I mean this is a fair and balanced view that other fair and balanced people like zeo and palerider subscribe to:
Putin will not intervene directly unless Ukrainian nazis that now control half of the government start the ethnic cleansing in Crimea and the east of Ukraine they have in their program. At that point West can either support nazi paramilitary organization or let Russia do what it wants
On March 02 2014 08:02 Knuty wrote: not saying maiden will make all corruption go away instantly,but when common people in your country protest in the streets while getting beat up , shot and arrested, somethings not right. And to call those people thieves and nazis is just .....
don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country
Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.
Oh wait you cant....
Man, this is pathetic. Medics shot by police snipers? Any proof? The police started firing live ammo long after several policemen died to gunshot wounds. He doesn't need to go find any videos, since you are spouting your fantasies.
so where is the proof it was police sniper? and what benefits for police this shot will bring? only negatives - crowd will be even more angry and kill policeman after that
and who is benefactor if crowd is more angry and impulsive? definitely not Yanykovich and polivce
and shots in the neck are trademark of british snipers
srsly, ppl can't use their brains nowadays
great stuff.
I dont agree with him but she's awfully quick and alert for someone shot in the neck
On March 02 2014 08:02 Knuty wrote: not saying maiden will make all corruption go away instantly,but when common people in your country protest in the streets while getting beat up , shot and arrested, somethings not right. And to call those people thieves and nazis is just .....
don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country
Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.
Oh wait you cant....
Man, this is pathetic. Medics shot by police snipers? Any proof? The police started firing live ammo long after several policemen died to gunshot wounds. He doesn't need to go find any videos, since you are spouting your fantasies.
so where is the proof it was police sniper? and what benefits for police this shot will bring? only negatives - crowd will be even more angry and kill policeman after that
and who is benefactor if crowd is more angry and impulsive? definitely not Yanykovich and polivce
and shots in the neck are trademark of british snipers
srsly, ppl can't use their brains nowadays
Clearly that girl was shot by english ninja sniper, that was definitely part of the protesters . Nobody should think anything else ! I mean, use your brains... duh.
First of all, this thread is filled with irrelevant shit.
Second, Ukraine just announced a general mobilization starting today.Source.
Edit:
The US calls it an occupation for the first time:
US statement (Kerry):
The United States condemns the Russian Federation's invasion and occupation of Ukrainian territory, and its violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity in full contravention of Russia’s obligations under the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, its 1997 military basing agreement with Ukraine, and the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. This action is a threat to the peace and security of Ukraine, and the wider region.
I spoke with President Turchynov this morning to assure him he had the strong support of the United States and commend the new government for showing the utmost restraint in the face of the clear and present danger to the integrity of their state, and the assaults on their sovereignty. We also urge that the Government of Ukraine continue to make clear, as it has from throughout this crisis, its commitment to protect the rights of all Ukrainians and uphold its international obligations.
As President Obama has said, we call for Russia to withdraw its forces back to bases, refrain from interference elsewhere in Ukraine, and support international mediation to address any legitimate issues regarding the protection of minority rights or security.
From day one, we've made clear that we recognize and respect Russia’s ties to Ukraine and its concerns about treatment of ethnic Russians. But these concerns can and must be addressed in a way that does not violate Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, by directly engaging the Government of Ukraine.
Unless immediate and concrete steps are taken by Russia to deescalate tensions, the effect on U.S.-Russian relations and on Russia’s international standing will be profound. I convened a call this afternoon with my counterparts from around the world, to coordinate on next steps. We were unified in our assessment and will work closely together to support Ukraine and its people at this historic hour.
In the coming days, emergency consultations will commence in the UN Security Council, the North Atlantic Council, and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in defense of the underlying principles critical to the maintenance of international peace and security. We continue to believe in the importance of an international presence from the UN or OSCE to gather facts, monitor for violations or abuses and help protect rights. As a leading member of both organizations, Russia can actively participate and make sure its interests are taken into account.
The people of Ukraine want nothing more than the right to define their own future – peacefully, politically and in stability. They must have the international community’s full support at this vital moment. The United States stands with them, as we have for 22 years, in seeing their rights restored.
The bolded part seems to communicate to Russia that the US accepts Russian interests in its near-abroad, something that a large number of US allies (Baltics, Poland, Georgia, etc) will be very worried about. Secondly, it gives some legitimacy to the ethnic minority argument.
On March 02 2014 08:02 Knuty wrote: not saying maiden will make all corruption go away instantly,but when common people in your country protest in the streets while getting beat up , shot and arrested, somethings not right. And to call those people thieves and nazis is just .....
don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country
Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.
Oh wait you cant....
Man, this is pathetic. Medics shot by police snipers? Any proof? The police started firing live ammo long after several policemen died to gunshot wounds. He doesn't need to go find any videos, since you are spouting your fantasies.
so where is the proof it was police sniper? and what benefits for police this shot will bring? only negatives - crowd will be even more angry and kill policeman after that
and who is benefactor if crowd is more angry and impulsive? definitely not Yanykovich and polivce
and shots in the neck are trademark of british snipers
srsly, ppl can't use their brains nowadays
Clearly that girl was shot by english ninja sniper, that was definitely part of the protesters . Nobody should think anything else ! I mean, use your brains... duh.
clearly it went like this: police sniper thinks why not shot this medic girl in the neck so crowd goes wild and kills my collegues in front of them in a most barbaric way sounds fun *shoots*
On March 02 2014 08:02 Knuty wrote: not saying maiden will make all corruption go away instantly,but when common people in your country protest in the streets while getting beat up , shot and arrested, somethings not right. And to call those people thieves and nazis is just .....
don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country
Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.
Oh wait you cant....
Man, this is pathetic. Medics shot by police snipers? Any proof? The police started firing live ammo long after several policemen died to gunshot wounds. He doesn't need to go find any videos, since you are spouting your fantasies.
so where is the proof it was police sniper? and what benefits for police this shot will bring? only negatives - crowd will be even more angry and kill policeman after that
and who is benefactor if crowd is more angry and impulsive? definitely not Yanykovich and polivce
and shots in the neck are trademark of british snipers
srsly, ppl can't use their brains nowadays
Clearly that girl was shot by english ninja sniper, that was definitely part of the protesters . Nobody should think anything else ! I mean, use your brains... duh.
clearly it went like this: police sniper thinks why not shot this medic girl in the neck so crowd goes wild and kills my collegues in front of them in a most barbaric way sounds fun *shoots*
The bold part is what didn't happen in my honest opinion.
On March 02 2014 08:02 Knuty wrote: not saying maiden will make all corruption go away instantly,but when common people in your country protest in the streets while getting beat up , shot and arrested, somethings not right. And to call those people thieves and nazis is just .....
don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country
Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.
Oh wait you cant....
Man, this is pathetic. Medics shot by police snipers? Any proof? The police started firing live ammo long after several policemen died to gunshot wounds. He doesn't need to go find any videos, since you are spouting your fantasies.
so where is the proof it was police sniper? and what benefits for police this shot will bring? only negatives - crowd will be even more angry and kill policeman after that
and who is benefactor if crowd is more angry and impulsive? definitely not Yanykovich and polivce
and shots in the neck are trademark of british snipers
srsly, ppl can't use their brains nowadays
Clearly that girl was shot by english ninja sniper, that was definitely part of the protesters . Nobody should think anything else ! I mean, use your brains... duh.
clearly it went like this: police sniper thinks why not shot this medic girl in the neck so crowd goes wild and kills my collegues in front of them in a most barbaric way sounds fun *shoots*
The bold part is what didn't happen in my honest opinion.
ok, somebody who gave him orders thought that way? police officers are stupid only you forum kid is smart
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