Ukraine Crisis - Page 120

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Gorsameth

Netherlands21734 Posts

March 01 2014 23:08 GMT

#2381

On March 02 2014 08:06 PaleMan wrote:

Show nested quote +

don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country

Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers
Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured
Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.

Oh wait you cant....

Cheerio

Ukraine3178 Posts

March 01 2014 23:08 GMT

#2382

On March 02 2014 05:56 PaleMan wrote:
some sources claim China will fully support Russia in UN

It's the same type of support that USSR and Germany had when they split up Poland. China has had it's eyes on Russian territories for decades now. It's only a matter of time and weakness of Russia when they start to act. If Russia gets severely weakened by economic sanctions from the West that would be perfect for China. And some kind of war (even some small one) between Nato and Russia would be even better.

m4ini

4215 Posts

March 01 2014 23:09 GMT

#2383

On March 02 2014 08:06 PaleMan wrote:

Show nested quote +

don't make me search youtube to show you HOW potesters treated in YOUR country

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWwDsPSe7iM

guess smth is not right in Germany atm

You start to get extremely annoying. Before you link idiotic videos, fcking read what they're about.

Let me tell you: you have absolutely ZERO idea.

PS: those are not protesters but organized punks who do this once every year.

Knuty

Germany68 Posts

March 01 2014 23:10 GMT

#2384

Not as bad as putting them in gulags i guess......
and i dont see people getting sniped in the head in that video..... maiden was on a whole nother level

zeonmx

United States111 Posts

March 01 2014 23:10 GMT

#2385

On March 02 2014 08:08 Cheerio wrote:

Show nested quote +

it's the same type of support that USSR and Germany had when they split up Poland. China has had it's eyes on Russian territories for decades now. It's only a matter of time and weakness of Russia when they start to act.

Sorry to burst your bubble, China never had intention of getting territories from Russia, but they are intended on getting territories from other South East Asian nations and maritime territories from japan.

China will go to war with Taiwan and Japan before shifting their tension on Russia (if they ever come to that).

PaleMan

Russian Federation1953 Posts

March 01 2014 23:12 GMT

#2386

On March 02 2014 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:

Show nested quote +

Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers
Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured
Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo.

Oh wait you cant....

Go find one where medics are shot by police snipers - by EU snipers you want to say, because ukranian police is not stupid to do this
Go find one where there leaders are kidnapped and tortured - yeah Maidan activists kidnapped and tortured a lot of ppl, some of them were cut in parts
Go find one where they are shot at with live ammo - it is probably already deleted

PaleMan

Russian Federation1953 Posts

March 01 2014 23:13 GMT

#2387

On March 02 2014 08:09 m4ini wrote:

Show nested quote +

organized punks in Ukraine make Maidan every 9 years (1st one was in 2004)

Gorsameth

Netherlands21734 Posts

March 01 2014 23:14 GMT

#2388

On March 02 2014 08:12 PaleMan wrote:

Show nested quote +

haha god your hilarious. keep it up you might make sense one day.

Knuty

Germany68 Posts

March 01 2014 23:14 GMT

#2389

this is pure gold XD

xDaunt

United States17988 Posts

March 01 2014 23:15 GMT

#2390

On March 02 2014 08:12 PaleMan wrote:

Show nested quote +

Good lord. There's no hope for Russia if all of its citizens are like this.

zeo

Serbia6298 Posts

March 01 2014 23:15 GMT

#2391

Ukraine’s Navy flagship, the Hetman Sahaidachny frigate, has reportedly refused to follow orders from Kiev, and come over to Russia’s side and is returning home after taking part in NATO operation in the Gulf of Aden flying the Russian naval flag.

http://inserbia.info/news/2014/03/ukraines-navy-flagship-refuses-to-follow-orders-from-kiev-report/

Can anyone confirm this? (its on RT too)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-navy-flaghsip-protest-389/

m4ini

4215 Posts

March 01 2014 23:17 GMT

#2392

On March 02 2014 08:13 PaleMan wrote:

Show nested quote +

organized punks in Ukraine make Maidan every 9 years (1st one was in 2004)

I am talking about punks in a literal sense, who actively attack police. But i'm done "discussing" with you since i actually think you're a troll, and not a funny one on top. At least i hope so, for your sake.

Just sad that you have to derail the thread time after time again with borderline retarded assumptions to seemingly distract from what's actually going on.

PaleMan

Russian Federation1953 Posts

March 01 2014 23:18 GMT

#2393

On March 02 2014 08:15 zeo wrote:

Show nested quote +

http://inserbia.info/news/2014/03/ukraines-navy-flagship-refuses-to-follow-orders-from-kiev-report/

Can anyone confirm this? (its on RT too)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-navy-flaghsip-protest-389/

i can confirm this, we have this in the news

PaleMan

Russian Federation1953 Posts

March 01 2014 23:24 GMT

#2394

you have no proofs about snipers but you are so sure it was police sniper
any evidence?
that's right - none
but somehow you are so sure it was ukrainian police sniper

HellRoxYa

Sweden1614 Posts

March 01 2014 23:24 GMT

#2395

On March 02 2014 08:18 PaleMan wrote:

Show nested quote +

i can confirm this, we have this in the news

Of course you do, the original is from "Russia Today". The confirmation must come from elsewhere...

Edit: I'm not saying it's not true. I'm saying you're clueless about sources.

5ukkub

Poland507 Posts

March 01 2014 23:25 GMT

#2396

On March 02 2014 08:04 zeo wrote:

Show nested quote +

Russia will just sell to Asia. Do you have any idea what will happen to Europe if half the supply of gas just stops? Nobody wants a breakdown of trade and relations.

Europe is full of Shale gas:
link: Shale gas in the World.

, and middle east is really near, and also N.A.F.T.A. a.k.a USA and the rest of Americas'.

Nobody likes your dirty tricks Russia. If only you'd be a nice peacefull democratic country,
whole Europe, from Iceland to Ural mountains would be prosperous and happy, but no... ehhh...
Just get this Putin guy and his corrupted band out of rule so we can live peacefully and prosperously.

hypercube

Hungary2735 Posts

March 01 2014 23:28 GMT

#2397

On March 02 2014 07:59 zeonmx wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 02 2014 01:06 hypercube wrote:

On March 02 2014 00:45 mcc wrote:

On March 02 2014 00:22 Gorsameth wrote:

On March 02 2014 00:17 Twoflowers wrote:

On March 02 2014 00:09 Gorsameth wrote:

On March 02 2014 00:03 hypercube wrote:

On March 01 2014 23:58 Gorsameth wrote:
And so it is once again shown that EU protection is a fucking joke. We will happily promise our protection but as soon as something bigger then a fly shows up we tuck our tails between our legs and run away.

Sickening to see how spineless our leadership has become.

EU protection means something if it's backed up by US power, which in practice it usually is. TBH, I don't think Russia can effectively go through with this, they will have to back down at some point. No point in sending troops to Ukraine and risk an armed conflict when there are less direct means to achieve the same goals.

Except that seems to be what is happening at this very moment.

On March 02 2014 00:03 Twoflowers wrote:

What EU protection? We have no treaties with the Ukraine that would justify a military intervention. We also have no forces in Ukraine, while russia has a fucking naval base near the biggest crimean city. Economic threats at russia would probably not be enough to stop an invasion. So what exactly shoulod teh EU do?

The Budapest Memorandum is why atleast the US and UK have a duty atm.

And what we should do? How about following Russians example when they moved there army to Ukraine's borders and showing them that we will respond if they invade instead of flinging harsh words.
This is a game of chicken by Putin and we pulled out before it even started.

http://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/europe/political-map-of-Ukraine.gif <-- to which border do you want the uk move forces? Shit is going down a bit too fast to organize a movement of UK troops to romania, poland etc. and they would have to go through turkish territory for acces to the black sea. Also these movements would have been interpreted as agression towards russia.

And Russia moving its army to Ukrains border isn't a sign of aggression?
Is it a sign when there flying military helicopters across the border?
Is it a sign when they approve "war"?

Would the troops need to be there in an hour? no ofc not but when you have your people mobilizing for the move it shows Russia your serious

We're seeing the effects of doing next to nothing right now.

Internet-tough-guy act is not how real world works.

Real situation is that Russia has big amount of leverage on the situation. They can threaten to cripple Ukarainian economy even without the use of force. They have in some areas popular suppport. They have a military base on Ukrainian territory. They can hit Europe economically also. They can also block Western diplomacy on issues more important to the West than Ukraine is.

US has some leverage due to being US. US can hurt Russia economically somewhat and actual threat of force would put Putin in a bad position. But US capability to posture is limited due to last 13 years.

EU has some leverage as they can hurt Putin back economically. Militarily most likely not as Putin would know it is a bluff.

Neither of those parties wants war with one another. Putin can always ignore economical threats as his position in Russia is not weak. So he knows that if he limits himself to small gains he will risk nothing as nobody will do squat, because it is in nobody's interest to do anything.

Of course there is another possibility, very unlikely one, that Putin sees that Ukraine is lost and might be admitted to NATO and decides that it is inacceptable to him and goes for full-on aggression. But that would be such a risk and he never showed any inclination to risk too much.

Though considering that for Russia limiting NATO influence was always a priority, not restoring USSR territorially as you claim, who knows.

There's one little detail you're leaving out: The US has made a commitment to defend Ukraine against aggression. Of course the US has ignored some of its commitments before but that was always to extend their influence. The idea that they would give up something that they have promised to protect anyway is extremely unlikely.

TBH, I'm not even sure there's anything more important to US diplomacy than Ukraine. Dominant powers tend to honour security guarantees (unless they are the aggressors). It might be an inconvenience and they might make small concessions to avoid conflict but ultimately the logic of power kicks in. Ignoring a US security guarantee is a direct challenge to the US, no matter how important the country itself is.

There's the little detail of Russia's nuclear arsenal, of course. In the end if Russia said: "We are invading Ukraine and if you try to stop us we'll nuke you", then there's a reasonable chance even the US would back down. But than they would have other options.

Upon actually reading it, the only defense commitment is to seek a UNSC resolution in the case of use of nuclear weapons against Ukraine. Russia is in breach of their own commitments to Ukraine, but the US is only bound to consult the UK and Russia in that event.

If anything, there's likely more fruitful commitments in the preliminary negotiations between Ukraine and NATO.

The beauty of diplomatic language. A document titled "Memorandum on Security Assurances [...]" which contains no actual security assurances.

It does seem you are correct.

r.Evo

Germany14080 Posts

March 01 2014 23:28 GMT

#2398

Press question towards the US representative: "What are the costs you are speaking about and does it worry you that four of the new ministers in the Ukraine are from the far right?"

tl;dr answer: "Political and economical isolation."

Gorsameth

Netherlands21734 Posts

March 01 2014 23:30 GMT

#2399

On March 02 2014 08:28 r.Evo wrote:
Press question towards the US representative: "What are the costs you are speaking about and does it worry you that four of the new ministers in the Ukraine are from the far right?"

tl;dr answer: "Political and economical isolation."

Because that always works so well...

m4ini

4215 Posts

March 01 2014 23:31 GMT

#2400

On March 02 2014 08:24 PaleMan wrote:
you have no proofs about snipers but you are so sure it was police sniper
any evidence?
that's right - none
but somehow you are so sure it was ukrainian police sniper

Sniper in police uniform, shooting protesters opposing their employer after being ordered so = EU sniper.

That totally makes sense. Did your media confirm that as well?

Edit: not to mention, did it even occur to you that the only benefitor of everything that happened is russia and not the EU? If you want to put a tinfoil hat on, feel free to - but look in your country, one of the most crooked and corrupt in the world, first.

I'll stick with police.

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