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On March 02 2014 06:20 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 05:00 Sub40APM wrote:On March 02 2014 04:58 AleXoundOS wrote:On March 02 2014 04:47 Sub40APM wrote:On March 02 2014 04:45 AleXoundOS wrote:On March 02 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote:
Well I thought the Russians already had the military invasion handled pretty well. I was trying to point out that all of the pro-Russian activity going on lately isn't necessarily homegrown. You still think that thousands of people came to Ukraine, and Donetsk, Kharkiv, Odessa, Crimea areas support illegal authorities from Kiev? Oh no, that the clashes broke out only after the Olympics and Putin no longer had to pretend to be a nice guy is just pure coincidence, as is the escalation of violence after Russian rubber stamp parliament passed an authorization of invasion. Just many many coincidences. Lol, you think I support Putin or what? And there is no violence you mentioned by military forces yet. You didn't answer the question though. It's important because if you agree that the mentioned areas do not support the current situation in Kiev, many talks related to military intervention will be related to Putin only and not Russians. Oh no. You are a wholly independent thinking man who really hates Putin yet also maintains the party line because...fascists are everywhere. Frankly you are about as biased as zeo, just the other way around. I know a lot of Russians that oppose Putin (to a point of some of them emigrating due to threats of arrests) and yet they also "maintain party line". Maybe it is because you see things through black-and-white glasses and all nuances miss you completely.
You mean the way you emigrated to Czech Republic and maintain Russian line here?
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On March 02 2014 06:17 Black Gun wrote:
in the long run, there is no way around splitting up ukraine. when 80-90% percent of the people in one half of a country want one thing and 80-90% in the other half want the exact opposite, there is no other solution.
in the end, russia will come out as the big strategical winner of this whole conflict because it annects the resource- and industry-rich eastern half of ukraine while the west gets the poor, rural western part of the country that will turn out to be a liability.
btw i think it is perfectly reasonable and justified for russia to not want a NATO country next to its own border. overall, it would be the best solution if the ukraine declared its neutrality and signed a trilateral treaty with the NATO and russia, stating that it wont join either side, military-wise. but again, this path wont work because of how torn the country is.
Ukraine already did what you proposed. In 1994. It abandoned its nuclear weapons, and in return UK, US and Russia guaranteed Ukraine territorial integrity. Russia seems to be tearing this treaty now. I guess Ukraine should have kept its nuclear warheads.
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On March 02 2014 06:23 AleXoundOS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 06:08 Sub40APM wrote:On March 02 2014 06:06 AleXoundOS wrote:On March 02 2014 05:29 Sub40APM wrote:Congratulations Russian bros and zeo, you have made Sarah Palin seem like a genius: Sarah Palin feels vindicated as she posts on Facebook.
Yes, I could see this one from Alaska. I’m usually not one to Told-Ya-So, but I did, despite my accurate prediction being derided as “an extremely far-fetched scenario” by the “high-brow” Foreign Policy magazine. Here’s what this “stupid” “insipid woman” predicted back in 2008: “After the Russian Army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama’s reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia’s Putin to invade Ukraine next.” I think you have completely muddled yourself by associating all Russians with Putin and party, neo-fascists talks with propaganda and Russia with USSR. With these moods as yours we will never listen to each other. What do you have to say? "Russia has legal right to invade" ? "Yanukovich is the president and should be restored"? Zeo is much more entertaining in explaining the Russian view. Where did I say that? It's your conclusions based on your ideas about Russians?
No, its based on your support of Russian invasion earlier in the thread and support of Yanukovich presidency. Since the only way to test how much support Maidan has is new elections the only reasonable response would be to want to see EU/NATO supervised elections in May.
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On March 02 2014 06:22 radiatoren wrote:A stream of the security council meeting has been started: http://webtv.un.org/
Damn I don't understand what the Russian guy says
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On March 02 2014 06:24 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 06:19 mcc wrote:On March 02 2014 05:51 RvB wrote:On March 02 2014 05:47 darkness wrote:
Do you guys think that Mitt Romney would have done better in this situation? No idea but I do think Obama holds back too much at the moment and the same goes for the EU. It's pretty clear now that Russia wants to expand its sphere of influence and that is not in our interest. edit: The EU is acting spineless as well : In a statement, French President Francois Hollande urged European countries to take swift and decisive action to find a way out of the crisis in Crimea when their foreign ministers meet in Brussels on Monday. I mean meeting on Monday what the fuck is that.... http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/01/ukraine-crisis-france-idUSL6N0LY0AW20140301 "that is not in our interest". I think it is a key to position of most posters in this thread. Everybody sees the situation through their geopolitical needs and just as an afterthought covers it in ethical clothes. Who cares about Ukrainians or Crimeans or Tatars. The important thing is that our side gets stronger and the "enemy" weaker. Not reallty, I'm convinced the EU is the best way to go for Ukraine in the long run. Like Sub40apm said: Show nested quote +(a) instead of hrivnya they will be part of the ruble zone, suffer from the same dutch disease as the rest of the russian economy
(b) since there is no longer a strategic interest to prop up these oligarchs in the East Ukraine, the bigger, Russian oligarchs who occupy the same industrial sector will simply take over those factories and have them shut down. Its already began with Victor Pinchuk, the son in law of the former President Kuchma. Its going to happen to the rest of them too. At least help from the west will give the country a chance to develop their economy and democracy in a good way which will never happen with Russia.
Association with the EU would not help their economy. Open markets would bring almost nothing to Ukrainian economy/Oligarchs. Most trade going out of Ukraine (mostly resources) is already being done under advantaged circumstances. But the rest of Ukrainian economy would be overwhelmed with way cheaper EU products. And the whole stuff about the west and democracy is and stays a joke. Otherwise they wouldn't have done what they did in Ukraine.
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The choreography has been impressive. Within hours of the airport seizure, Russian MPs proposed a bill in the state Duma simplifying procedures for getting Russian passports to Ukrainians. The goal, the MPs said, was to protect a "brotherly nation". Russia's most important opposition leader, Alexei Navalny, meanwhile, has been placed under house arrest for two months and denied access to the internet. The Kremlin, that most risk-averse of entities, has everything covered.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/vladimir-putin-crimean-coup-russia-ukraine
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On March 02 2014 06:31 AA.spoon wrote:Damn I don't understand what the Russian guy says
just use english language  in the bottom right
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Russian Federation83 Posts
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On March 02 2014 06:33 RolleMcKnolle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 06:24 RvB wrote:On March 02 2014 06:19 mcc wrote:On March 02 2014 05:51 RvB wrote:On March 02 2014 05:47 darkness wrote:
Do you guys think that Mitt Romney would have done better in this situation? No idea but I do think Obama holds back too much at the moment and the same goes for the EU. It's pretty clear now that Russia wants to expand its sphere of influence and that is not in our interest. edit: The EU is acting spineless as well : In a statement, French President Francois Hollande urged European countries to take swift and decisive action to find a way out of the crisis in Crimea when their foreign ministers meet in Brussels on Monday. I mean meeting on Monday what the fuck is that.... http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/01/ukraine-crisis-france-idUSL6N0LY0AW20140301 "that is not in our interest". I think it is a key to position of most posters in this thread. Everybody sees the situation through their geopolitical needs and just as an afterthought covers it in ethical clothes. Who cares about Ukrainians or Crimeans or Tatars. The important thing is that our side gets stronger and the "enemy" weaker. Not reallty, I'm convinced the EU is the best way to go for Ukraine in the long run. Like Sub40apm said: (a) instead of hrivnya they will be part of the ruble zone, suffer from the same dutch disease as the rest of the russian economy
(b) since there is no longer a strategic interest to prop up these oligarchs in the East Ukraine, the bigger, Russian oligarchs who occupy the same industrial sector will simply take over those factories and have them shut down. Its already began with Victor Pinchuk, the son in law of the former President Kuchma. Its going to happen to the rest of them too. At least help from the west will give the country a chance to develop their economy and democracy in a good way which will never happen with Russia. Association with the EU would not help their economy. Open markets would bring almost nothing to Ukrainian economy/Oligarchs. Most trade going out of Ukraine (mostly resources) is already being done under advantaged circumstances. But the rest of Ukrainian economy would be overwhelmed with way cheaper EU products. And the whole stuff about the west and democracy is and stays a joke. Otherwise they wouldn't have done what they did in Ukraine.
Totally. No poor country has ever taken advantage of access to richer markets and cheap labor prices to create new industries that feed into those richer markets -- signed, Slovakia, China, South Korea, Taiwan.
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On March 02 2014 06:34 RolleMcKnolle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 06:31 AA.spoon wrote:On March 02 2014 06:22 radiatoren wrote:A stream of the security council meeting has been started: http://webtv.un.org/ Damn I don't understand what the Russian guy says just use english language in the bottom right
ty lol
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On March 02 2014 06:27 Sub40APM wrote:
based on your support of Russian invasion earlier
What? Where did I write that?
I think your conclusions are not "based" on something but "biased" with something.
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"Ukraine will only be for Ukrainians" -- speaking in perfect, accent less Russian.
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On March 02 2014 06:36 AleXoundOS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 06:27 Sub40APM wrote:
based on your support of Russian invasion earlier What? Where did I write that? I think your conclusions are not "based" on something but "biased" with something.
You are right, I apologize to you.
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On March 02 2014 06:31 AA.spoon wrote:Damn I don't understand what the Russian guy says
Short tl;dr from what I gathered: Sympathizers with Kiev attacked official buildings in Crimea, and the Crimean ministers (?) asked Russia for help defending them which is what Russia intends to do until civil and political order is restored.
He's also citing the agreement of the 21st being broken in terms of certain groups still being armed.
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Lol. Russian representative slamming UNs decissions to hold an open meeting. EU spurred protests and the economic situation was too dire for the EU agreement. Yanukovych made mistakes but the opposition disrespected the deal with Yanukovych. (all in blaming "why?"). The language change is slammed. Kievians are coming to the east to start the same as in Kyiv!
Crimea disorder and use of weapons. Unknown people from Kyiv were attempting to take Crimeas parliament with force. Crimean minister appealed to Russia for protection. "In Ukraine" not "against Ukraine". Way foreward: Cooler heads. Reestablish unity government and stop the radical opposition! Actions as they are taking can lead to very unfortunate situations.
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I guess next time America wants to invade a country it'll just pass a law saying it's protecting Americans in that country and everything will be fine, right?
Right?
Bueller?
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On March 02 2014 06:34 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 06:33 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On March 02 2014 06:24 RvB wrote:On March 02 2014 06:19 mcc wrote:On March 02 2014 05:51 RvB wrote:On March 02 2014 05:47 darkness wrote:
Do you guys think that Mitt Romney would have done better in this situation? No idea but I do think Obama holds back too much at the moment and the same goes for the EU. It's pretty clear now that Russia wants to expand its sphere of influence and that is not in our interest. edit: The EU is acting spineless as well : In a statement, French President Francois Hollande urged European countries to take swift and decisive action to find a way out of the crisis in Crimea when their foreign ministers meet in Brussels on Monday. I mean meeting on Monday what the fuck is that.... http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/01/ukraine-crisis-france-idUSL6N0LY0AW20140301 "that is not in our interest". I think it is a key to position of most posters in this thread. Everybody sees the situation through their geopolitical needs and just as an afterthought covers it in ethical clothes. Who cares about Ukrainians or Crimeans or Tatars. The important thing is that our side gets stronger and the "enemy" weaker. Not reallty, I'm convinced the EU is the best way to go for Ukraine in the long run. Like Sub40apm said: (a) instead of hrivnya they will be part of the ruble zone, suffer from the same dutch disease as the rest of the russian economy
(b) since there is no longer a strategic interest to prop up these oligarchs in the East Ukraine, the bigger, Russian oligarchs who occupy the same industrial sector will simply take over those factories and have them shut down. Its already began with Victor Pinchuk, the son in law of the former President Kuchma. Its going to happen to the rest of them too. At least help from the west will give the country a chance to develop their economy and democracy in a good way which will never happen with Russia. Association with the EU would not help their economy. Open markets would bring almost nothing to Ukrainian economy/Oligarchs. Most trade going out of Ukraine (mostly resources) is already being done under advantaged circumstances. But the rest of Ukrainian economy would be overwhelmed with way cheaper EU products. And the whole stuff about the west and democracy is and stays a joke. Otherwise they wouldn't have done what they did in Ukraine. Totally. No poor country has ever taken advantage of access to richer markets and cheap labor prices to create new industries that feed into those richer markets -- signed, Slovakia, China, South Korea, Taiwan.
I was obvioulsy talking about the oligarchy which is the main driving source in Ukrainian politics and economy. They don't prefer strong association with the EU, since they are dependent on Russian resources (energy) and don't have the economical power needed to compete with cheap EU(German) production.
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US tl;dr: What Russia is doing is violating their own agreement to safeguard the Ukrainian borders. The US sees no provocation towards any minorities and are encouraging OSCE and UN observers.
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According to anonymous US government sources it isn't an invasion, it's an "unopposed arrival."
The zombie of George Orwell must be getting a real hankering for some brains right now, except these people don't have any.
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UK tl;dr: Concerned with sovereignty of Ukraine, supports new Ukrainian government, Russia should calm down.
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EPT
