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That's the thing though. They are fast and skilled. The major problem last year with regards to puck possession was we lost a shitload of face offs and we had a stupid amount of turn overs in our own zone. Randy had set plays to clear the zone yet our boys had a lot of issues adapting and even if we cleared the zone we'd give it right back to them.
As for playing in the opposition's zone. You're talking about the Boston versus Toronto series right? Boston were all over the Leafs; we could barely get any sustained pressure in the Boston zone. That didn't stop us from wearing down their D though because we were getting to guys like Chara (which is kind of funny because it's what the Leafs of old did when he was in Ottawa). If you want to have success against Chara just keep the bumps coming. Never let up; always take the body. It slowed him down noticeably on several of our goals.
Shot blocking is very important in this day and age man. You'll hear almost every coach trying to sell it to their players and as long as you have a clear system and the players know where they're supposed to be then the goalies will know where the shots are coming from. It helps the goalies immensely. Good D and counter attacking has worked for ages man. What system you think Lou Lamoriello preached to the Devils for ages. Good old trap and they were highly successful with it. They were absolutely lethal on the counter-attack. That's how they got a lot of their goals way back when. They would make you turn over the puck in the neutral zone and then boom. Guys like Elias and Mogilny would put it at the back of the net. It worked well in the clutch and grab era too man. It was their bread and butter and I'm trying to remember how many times they were out shot. I think it was quite often or there weren't many chances for either side but they made it work. To this day it's very viable and it's playoff hockey to punish your body and block the shots. You want to win playoff games & this is what you do. Randy's just trying to get them do it year round and Reimer is used to it. Heck they just had an interview with him last week where he was talking about it. lol
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We might be getting into the unknowable of hockey. Trapping is the obvious parallel to "counter-attacking" for sure. The issue for TOR is that they don't do that, the trap is designed to keep someone out of your zone. I'm not familiar with how TOR did in the faceoff circle last year, but it should really only matter if they lost draws cleanly by an enormous margin. If that was the case, it's unlikely to be a problem again. And if TOR is making lots of bad turnovers in addition to losing the possession battle significantly, then they got extremely lucky. Another year of a coach will probably see improvement though, as familiarity will help regardless of the system.
I agree that shot blocking is very important. Except tallying them up signifies nothing. There is also a difference between grit/sandpaper way of blocking by diving to the ice exposing yourself to injury and the smarter and more effective way of blocking: by using your stick. That's why a guy like Kimmo Timonen is so effective, he doesn't risk injuries or take himself out of the play, he essentially nullifies the shot with his stick blade. The goal on defense is not to block shots, it's to prevent shots altogether. Carlyle has this idea that you can limit a team to mostly bad shots, which has yet to hold water. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'll believe it when I see it. Torterella had the league's best goalie, a fantastic D corps, and got crazy lucky that his forwards never got injured. We saw last year that they did a bit, and the Rangers suffered for it.
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On September 25 2013 15:23 sharkeyanti wrote:
Also, blocked shots is often indicative of being a bad team.
Pretty much. And John Stripperella is going to look super smart when a Sedin breaks his ankle. Sure, let your bad players block shots to earn that roster spot but having one of your top offensive talents laying down on a grenade is dumb - like Taylor-Hall-sprain-your-ankle-in-a-fight dumb.
It speaks to the old school mentality of hockey that seems to be so absurdly popular. Like the idea that somehow having Steve McIntyre sitting on your bench for 56 minutes a night stops Sam Gagner from getting a stick in his face. Hockey players are smarter than that. Shot blocking conveys intangible concepts like 'toughness', 'sacrifice', courage and a bunch of other things that the media loves to puff their chests up over.
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On September 25 2013 15:57 sharkeyanti wrote:
As the league moves faster and less grabby, counter-attacking may indeed become viable. If TOR truly wants to be a team that capitalizes on occasional but quality chances, they need to be fast and skilled.
Edmonton is not a good team, but this is how they typically score - fast breaks, counter-attacks, taking advantage of their speed and skill.
Of course, they then go ahead and allow more of the traditional bounce-of-someone's-butt-point-shot typical NHL goals than most teams and lose games.
Still, it's pretty when it works. It's kind of like cheering for a shittier version of Arsenal. They may not win all of the time but damn, it's fun to watch when they do.
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On September 26 2013 00:47 Flaccid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 15:57 sharkeyanti wrote:
As the league moves faster and less grabby, counter-attacking may indeed become viable. If TOR truly wants to be a team that capitalizes on occasional but quality chances, they need to be fast and skilled. Edmonton is not a good team, but this is how they typically score - fast breaks, counter-attacks, taking advantage of their speed and skill. Of course, they then go ahead and allow more of the traditional bounce-of-someone's-butt-point-shot typical NHL goals than most teams and lose games. Still, it's pretty when it works. It's kind of like cheering for a shittier version of Arsenal. They may not win all of the time but damn, it's fun to watch when they do.
That was Ron Wilson's mandate only the Oilers have many more youngsters with unfilled potential and they learned a lot of really BAD habits and their D is bad.
On September 26 2013 00:38 sharkeyanti wrote:
We might be getting into the unknowable of hockey. Trapping is the obvious parallel to "counter-attacking" for sure. The issue for TOR is that they don't do that, the trap is designed to keep someone out of your zone. I'm not familiar with how TOR did in the faceoff circle last year, but it should really only matter if they lost draws cleanly by an enormous margin. If that was the case, it's unlikely to be a problem again. And if TOR is making lots of bad turnovers in addition to losing the possession battle significantly, then they got extremely lucky. Another year of a coach will probably see improvement though, as familiarity will help regardless of the system.
I agree that shot blocking is very important. Except tallying them up signifies nothing. There is also a difference between grit/sandpaper way of blocking by diving to the ice exposing yourself to injury and the smarter and more effective way of blocking: by using your stick. That's why a guy like Kimmo Timonen is so effective, he doesn't risk injuries or take himself out of the play, he essentially nullifies the shot with his stick blade. The goal on defense is not to block shots, it's to prevent shots altogether. Carlyle has this idea that you can limit a team to mostly bad shots, which has yet to hold water. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'll believe it when I see it. Torterella had the league's best goalie, a fantastic D corps, and got crazy lucky that his forwards never got injured. We saw last year that they did a bit, and the Rangers suffered for it.
They were really fucking bad. Get rid of Steckel who was taking most of the draws regardless of the zone because everyone else was downright terrible. Whether it be clean or on the scramble. Bozak has been doing a lot of the same because his percentages are somewhat decent. Anyway, most of the time we would be trying to regain possession. As for the Leafs' training camp. They've been doing a lot of work on their there neutral zone coverage. I wouldn't really call it luck when you look at their penalty kill in the same breath because clearly they're doing some good things in their own zone like making it difficult for the other team to get quality scoring chances.
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On September 26 2013 01:01 StarStruck wrote:
They were really fucking bad. Get rid of Steckel who was taking most of the draws regardless of the zone because everyone else was downright terrible. Whether it be clean or on the scramble. Bozak has been doing a lot of the same because his percentages are somewhat decent. Anyway, most of the time we would be trying to regain possession. As for the Leafs' training camp. They've been doing a lot of work on their there neutral zone coverage. I wouldn't really call it luck when you look at their penalty kill in the same breath because clearly they're doing some good things in their own zone like making it difficult for the other team to get quality scoring chances.
The penalty kill was definitely a bright spot. However, TOR's save percentage on the PK was a fairly high .901. (OTT had an absurd .920!) You would normally expect somewhere in the .870 range. Considering TOR was on the PK 8th most in the league, some of those positive effects are kind of null. Interestingly, BOS was 7th most on the PK, and they were plenty good. I'm not saying they were lucky to play well, but that a .901 save percentage is unlikely to be repeated, and that the frequency of penalties is as much a problem as anything. That said, they were one of the best teams in limiting shots against per 60 min in 4v5 situations, which is the best predictor of PK success at the moment. This season is going to be interesting to see if the idea of preventing quality chances works for TOR, as they do not use a trap style.
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On September 26 2013 00:39 Flaccid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 15:23 sharkeyanti wrote:
Also, blocked shots is often indicative of being a bad team. Pretty much. And John Stripperella is going to look super smart when a Sedin breaks his ankle. Sure, let your bad players block shots to earn that roster spot but having one of your top offensive talents laying down on a grenade is dumb - like Taylor-Hall-sprain-your-ankle-in-a-fight dumb. It speaks to the old school mentality of hockey that seems to be so absurdly popular. Like the idea that somehow having Steve McIntyre sitting on your bench for 56 minutes a night stops Sam Gagner from getting a stick in his face. Hockey players are smarter than that. Shot blocking conveys intangible concepts like 'toughness', 'sacrifice', courage and a bunch of other things that the media loves to puff their chests up over.
Sorry bro, story lines! And statistics are for morons! And also, moneyball made baseball suck! -- all things Brian Burke actually said at one point or another at one of those sloan sports conferences before they stopped inviting him.
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On September 26 2013 00:47 Flaccid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 15:57 sharkeyanti wrote:
As the league moves faster and less grabby, counter-attacking may indeed become viable. If TOR truly wants to be a team that capitalizes on occasional but quality chances, they need to be fast and skilled. Edmonton is not a good team, but this is how they typically score - fast breaks, counter-attacks, taking advantage of their speed and skill. Of course, they then go ahead and allow more of the traditional bounce-of-someone's-butt-point-shot typical NHL goals than most teams and lose games. Still, it's pretty when it works. It's kind of like cheering for a shittier version of Arsenal. They may not win all of the time but damn, it's fun to watch when they do.
Watching a generation of first overall picks getting ruined by picking up a ton of bad habits is only fun if the Oilers plan on trading all of them to the Red Wings so they can learn real hockey. And since they are all Canadian, Babcock would actually let them play instead of stash them in GR while Dan Cleary in his mid 40s still gets those top 6 minutes because GRIT and LOCKER ROOM PRESENCE!
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On September 26 2013 05:08 sharkeyanti wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 01:01 StarStruck wrote:
They were really fucking bad. Get rid of Steckel who was taking most of the draws regardless of the zone because everyone else was downright terrible. Whether it be clean or on the scramble. Bozak has been doing a lot of the same because his percentages are somewhat decent. Anyway, most of the time we would be trying to regain possession. As for the Leafs' training camp. They've been doing a lot of work on their there neutral zone coverage. I wouldn't really call it luck when you look at their penalty kill in the same breath because clearly they're doing some good things in their own zone like making it difficult for the other team to get quality scoring chances. The penalty kill was definitely a bright spot. However, TOR's save percentage on the PK was a fairly high .901. (OTT had an absurd .920!) You would normally expect somewhere in the .870 range. Considering TOR was on the PK 8th most in the league, some of those positive effects are kind of null. Interestingly, BOS was 7th most on the PK, and they were plenty good. I'm not saying they were lucky to play well, but that a .901 save percentage is unlikely to be repeated, and that the frequency of penalties is as much a problem as anything. That said, they were one of the best teams in limiting shots against per 60 min in 4v5 situations, which is the best predictor of PK success at the moment. This season is going to be interesting to see if the idea of preventing quality chances works for TOR, as they do not use a trap style.
We'll see. Really comes down to rebound control and now that we have Bernier it will be interesting. I don't think we'll come 2nd in the penalty kill again but we should be within the top ten at least and we took so many fights last year. So many of those penalty minutes for fighting lol.. we led the league in that category as well. >_< I guess the Bay Street Bullies really works here. I miss the Broad Street Bullies versus the Bay Street Bullies days. Come on Philly pick up the pace!
On September 26 2013 05:22 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 00:47 Flaccid wrote:On September 25 2013 15:57 sharkeyanti wrote:
As the league moves faster and less grabby, counter-attacking may indeed become viable. If TOR truly wants to be a team that capitalizes on occasional but quality chances, they need to be fast and skilled. Edmonton is not a good team, but this is how they typically score - fast breaks, counter-attacks, taking advantage of their speed and skill. Of course, they then go ahead and allow more of the traditional bounce-of-someone's-butt-point-shot typical NHL goals than most teams and lose games. Still, it's pretty when it works. It's kind of like cheering for a shittier version of Arsenal. They may not win all of the time but damn, it's fun to watch when they do. Watching a generation of first overall picks getting ruined by picking up a ton of bad habits is only fun if the Oilers plan on trading all of them to the Red Wings so they can learn real hockey. And since they are all Canadian, Babcock would actually let them play instead of stash them in GR while Dan Cleary in his mid 40s still gets those top 6 minutes because GRIT and LOCKER ROOM PRESENCE!
At least Dallas is good at developing young talent. Going to take a while for those players to learn Dallas' system though.
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http://games.espn.go.com/tsn-hockey-challenge/2014/en_CA/freeagency?entryID=15007&slotID=8&spid=55
my lineup is: howard(g), niemi(g), karlsson(d), subban(d), letang(d), yandle(d), crosby(f), stamkos(f), st.louis(f), malkin(f), ovechkin(f), krejci(f)
not a very challenging format..
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Franson won't be going to Europe after all. Signs with the Leafs for one year at 2 million which is a bargain for the Leafs. They wanted sign him for 2 years but he only wanted 1 so he had the power to renegotiate. In any case we'll have a lot of free agents that won't be coming back next year.
Stephan also got a two year deal done with the Rangers for just over 6mil.
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Tim Thomas is back with the Panthers.
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Guess it's about that time for cup predictions!
I've got Kings over Capitals. Of course, the heart is always for Philadelphia.
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I am not happy with Andrew Ferance being named the Oilers captain. The guy has exactly zero games played in the uniform. Gagner, Eberle, Hall or even Smid would be way better choices in my opinion.
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You know who the red wings could have used? Liles and Nyquist. Fortunately, greatest GM in the world Ken Holland has brought in Cleary and Samuelson to soak up money and ice time instead and the Red Wings D and secondary schoring will be atrocious.
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Sub40APM *shrug*
Orca, it's not like it hasn't happened before and heck they even have a new coach. Picking a veteran is nothing new either with a young dressing room. Anyway, I'm not keen of all this Kessel talk for max contract at around 8 million a year. Talk about giving the guy an unmovable contract when this is arguably his peak. lol Show me the money , sigh. >_<
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SHit's pretty bleak when John Michael Liles is gonna shore up a defense hahaha
Kessel will absolutely get a max from someone if not Toronto. Dude's pretty one dimensional overall, but he's probably one of the best goal scorers in the league. Those don't come for cheap, especially not if you're in the biggest hockey market in the league.
HOCKEY IS BACK!!!!!
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niggas: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428815
as for Kessel, he's 26, the leading scorer on the team for at least three years running, and the best skill forward (though imo, Kadri will end up as better in a few years). It's not like they threw a max at 29 or 30 year old. He'll be 34 when it is done; it carries him through his prime. It wasn't like Kadri, where he's boned because of RFA. If they fucked with Kessel, low balled him or whatever, he could very easily walk and go get 8/8 from any number of clubs. Guys who can pot 30g, 70-80pts a year are rare. Hes hit 30g four years in a row, and it would have been five in a full year last season.
I don't think that you have to be a great all around player to earn something like that. It's up to the gm to make sure that he compensates Kessel's lack of defensive play, toughness, etc etc elsewhere on the roster. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a real center too instead of Bozak, ughhh
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EPT
