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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Ive plugged this before, but our EU members should watch “best of enemies” which is a documentary about the rise of the Left vs Right focus in US political media.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_Enemies_(2015_film)
Although the terms and dynamics existed well before this, these debates were a tipping point in how politics were covers in the US. Our slow move to the Pro Wrestling format if you will.
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On February 02 2018 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 04:43 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
So what do y'all think of my categorization of your posting? Feel free to complain about my conservative bias or liberal bias or Liquid bias!
It sounds good if you look at it from an american standard, but that's not really a compliment. I've been meaning for a little while to write a way too long post about the left, the right, why I think I can make a credible argument that the US has them wrong and why it matters, and this is perhaps the right context to write it. I'll get to it when I'm back from work.
I only really know American politics. Obviously the term liberalism as used in modern American politics (meaning support for a certain set of economic and social policies) does differ a lot from the kind of liberalism that Edmund Burke wrote about. Conservatives in Europe usually are more closely aligned with American liberals than American conservatives. That doesn't mean the terms liberal and conservative are useless or wrong when applied to American politics; they just describe different places on a spectrum than they do when applied to European poltics.
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On February 02 2018 06:39 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 02 2018 04:43 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
So what do y'all think of my categorization of your posting? Feel free to complain about my conservative bias or liberal bias or Liquid bias!
It sounds good if you look at it from an american standard, but that's not really a compliment. I've been meaning for a little while to write a way too long post about the left, the right, why I think I can make a credible argument that the US has them wrong and why it matters, and this is perhaps the right context to write it. I'll get to it when I'm back from work. I only really know American politics. Obviously the term liberalism as used in modern American politics (meaning support for a certain set of economic and social policies) does differ a lot from the kind of liberalism that Edmund Burke wrote about. Conservatives in Europe usually are more closely aligned with American liberals than American conservatives. That doesn't mean the terms liberal and conservative are useless or wrong when applied to American politics; they just describe different places on a spectrum than they do when applied to European poltics.
I don't disagree with any of that. I should really write this post, I hope I do.
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I wonder if the best move for Trump now is to demand the memo be released with heavy redactions and then just say how bad it is and how it used to be even worse.
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On February 02 2018 06:55 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I wonder if the best move for Trump now is to demand the memo be released with heavy redactions and then just say how bad it is and how it used to be even worse.
This is what I figure happens. When it comes out to be nothing everyone on the right will go "ALL THE BAD STUFF WAS REDACTED !!!! "
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I see Donald J. Trump as a one-term president
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 02 2018 05:45 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 04:54 LegalLord wrote:On February 02 2018 04:51 Sermokala wrote:On February 02 2018 04:01 Emnjay808 wrote:
i wish there was a tag next to each person's name so i know whos conserv and whos lib. that way i know whos arguing with who. Yes lets just have one side get stars and the other side (insert nazi symbol here for shock effect). That was a great way to identify people and separate them. How about far left = 5 stars, far right = 5 lightning bolts, and you get something in between based on where else you fall on that spectrum? an opportunity to reintroduce the hammer and sickle and you passed?! i'm disappointed. lightning bolts are appropriate. alternatives are a wolfhead or just plain swastikas.
The imagery has to be a little more subtle than that.
Red stars, yellow background.
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On February 02 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 02:53 iamthedave wrote:On February 02 2018 00:30 Plansix wrote:On February 02 2018 00:18 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Just wanted to let everyone in this thread know about Lawfare. It's a great site that has lots of well-written commentary on national security law. Best of all, it's written by people who actually know what they are talking about. For example, one of their writers was an NSA lawyer for years, one is a Harvard law professor, etc. Real experts, as opposed to twenty-something journalists with degrees in 4 years of literary analysis and not much else. Literarily analysts have really gotten a bad rap for the last decade. It used to be under water basket weaving, modern art and poetry. What did literary critique do to become a pejorative? All art critique has, really. As someone who studied it at university and has been an editor before, a lot of people operate on 'if I like it, it is good' and they reject the sort of things that someone like me will just casually reel off to point out why the thing they like isn't. The problem is you need to understand it for the critique to actually have meaning. So literary critique - like film critique - ends up seeming more and more elitist, because the things that piss us off are only really irritating if you understand what makes things good in the first place on a structural level. I can tell anyone, easily and clearly, why War and Peace is superior to Twilight. But a lot of people would say Twilight is better because they like it more. They're allowed to be wrong. But they're still wrong. I think it also has to do with new fan-base marketing that seems so prevalent these days. That people are encouraged to embrace commercial products are part of their identity. And those fans demand that others love a thing in the same way, to the same intensity and for them same reasons that the fans do, or those people are wrong. Which has worked out well for sports, but gets weird when applied to artistic works like movies or even video games. I noticed it when people started using the term “gamer” to identify themselves, which was a marketing term that was thrown on mountain dew bottles. It is a weird offshoot of modern capitalism that is kinda poisonous. I’ve really had to think hard about who I talk about movies with.
Absolutely. It's funny pointing out to otherwise intelligent people I know that they're ignoring something they've criticised in a movie they didn't like when that same thing happens in a movie they like.
A lot of people don't understand that pointing out a flaw doesn't mean saying something isn't enjoyable, or even necessarily that it's bad. But it's important to understand why - culturally - a movie like No Country for Old Men is better than... Lucky Number Slevin, to stick with a movie in roughly the same genre (that isn't actually that bad, just isn't as good). Or why The Dark Knight is better than The Dark Knight Rises, or why The Dark Knight Rises is deeply flawed but still very good on a few levels. Or why Daredevil is better than Arrow. And so on and so forth. And of course the converse; pointing out why certain movies people hate are better than they think. I might as well have a T-Shirt reading 'Matrix Reloaded Apologist' for how many debates I've had to have pointing out why that movie isn't as bad as people think.
Our culture is better for proper critique and understanding. But people attaching identity to the things they like is eroding that.
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On February 02 2018 05:28 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2018 04:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 02 2018 01:25 IyMoon wrote:
Lets get it going guys!
What should we place on odds?
Is it a ban bet? Paypal someone something? Who gets to be the ref? (It 100% should be GH) I approve this message On February 02 2018 02:20 Danglars wrote:On February 02 2018 02:14 Leporello wrote:
Hooray for partisan memo day! I can't wait for Nunes to expose the FBI's troubling behavior of spying on Russians and Russo-Americans like Carter Page to the public. This just in: American citizens can be "Russo-Americans" undeserving of constitutional protections like the Fourth Amendment against spying. I thought Democrats were into civil rights, even including criminals on trial? Maybe I'm relying on outdated assumptions about Democrats. Americans that deal with Russians get put on the gangplank these days. You don't need me to remind you why this is gross do you? I know you feel silly for this now. On February 02 2018 04:47 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. Though Kwark and Modoo are filthy centrist according to some. Come on, Kwark self-identifies as a coinservative (typo that I'm keeping). The US political spectrum is FUBAR. Kwark seems to identify as conservative while also saying the American version of conservatism is a bastardization of sorts. I think he's much more fond of the European definition of conservative. With the exception of a very strange few, such as Nigel Farge, UK conservatives seem to have a distaste for US conservatives. Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear fame is rather conservative in British press. Hated Bush. Loved Obama. Generally speaking.
Our go-to description of the US conservatives is: "Our Conservatives are your Democrats, and your Conservatives are the BNP/UKIP."
There's a unique quality to it in the UK though, where as soon as someone gets out beyond the Conservative Party they almost instantly start saying spectacularly racist things, and in the UK it's very hard to get away with that and retain a meaningful career. Some do it. Boris Johnson's career is the political village idiot, but we have a broadly held-to standard of behaviour for our politicians, and we tend to drop the hammer hard if we catch them out.
From all I see over in the US, you seem to let your electeds get away with just about anything.
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On February 02 2018 09:04 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 05:28 Leporello wrote:On February 02 2018 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2018 04:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 02 2018 01:25 IyMoon wrote:
Lets get it going guys!
What should we place on odds?
Is it a ban bet? Paypal someone something? Who gets to be the ref? (It 100% should be GH) I approve this message On February 02 2018 02:20 Danglars wrote:On February 02 2018 02:14 Leporello wrote:
Hooray for partisan memo day! I can't wait for Nunes to expose the FBI's troubling behavior of spying on Russians and Russo-Americans like Carter Page to the public. This just in: American citizens can be "Russo-Americans" undeserving of constitutional protections like the Fourth Amendment against spying. I thought Democrats were into civil rights, even including criminals on trial? Maybe I'm relying on outdated assumptions about Democrats. Americans that deal with Russians get put on the gangplank these days. You don't need me to remind you why this is gross do you? I know you feel silly for this now. On February 02 2018 04:47 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. Though Kwark and Modoo are filthy centrist according to some. Come on, Kwark self-identifies as a coinservative (typo that I'm keeping). The US political spectrum is FUBAR. Kwark seems to identify as conservative while also saying the American version of conservatism is a bastardization of sorts. I think he's much more fond of the European definition of conservative. With the exception of a very strange few, such as Nigel Farge, UK conservatives seem to have a distaste for US conservatives. Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear fame is rather conservative in British press. Hated Bush. Loved Obama. Generally speaking. Our go-to description of the US conservatives is: "Our Conservatives are your Democrats, and your Conservatives are the BNP/UKIP." There's a unique quality to it in the UK though, where as soon as someone gets out beyond the Conservative Party they almost instantly start saying spectacularly racist things, and in the UK it's very hard to get away with that and retain a meaningful career. Some do it. Boris Johnson's career is the political village idiot, but we have a broadly held-to standard of behaviour for our politicians, and we tend to drop the hammer hard if we catch them out. From all I see over in the US, you seem to let your electeds get away with just about anything.
The obvious answer is that the US population is much more racist itself so more people are ok with politicians making racist remarks, because they agree with them.
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On February 02 2018 08:45 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On February 02 2018 02:53 iamthedave wrote:On February 02 2018 00:30 Plansix wrote:On February 02 2018 00:18 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Just wanted to let everyone in this thread know about Lawfare. It's a great site that has lots of well-written commentary on national security law. Best of all, it's written by people who actually know what they are talking about. For example, one of their writers was an NSA lawyer for years, one is a Harvard law professor, etc. Real experts, as opposed to twenty-something journalists with degrees in 4 years of literary analysis and not much else. Literarily analysts have really gotten a bad rap for the last decade. It used to be under water basket weaving, modern art and poetry. What did literary critique do to become a pejorative? All art critique has, really. As someone who studied it at university and has been an editor before, a lot of people operate on 'if I like it, it is good' and they reject the sort of things that someone like me will just casually reel off to point out why the thing they like isn't. The problem is you need to understand it for the critique to actually have meaning. So literary critique - like film critique - ends up seeming more and more elitist, because the things that piss us off are only really irritating if you understand what makes things good in the first place on a structural level. I can tell anyone, easily and clearly, why War and Peace is superior to Twilight. But a lot of people would say Twilight is better because they like it more. They're allowed to be wrong. But they're still wrong. I think it also has to do with new fan-base marketing that seems so prevalent these days. That people are encouraged to embrace commercial products are part of their identity. And those fans demand that others love a thing in the same way, to the same intensity and for them same reasons that the fans do, or those people are wrong. Which has worked out well for sports, but gets weird when applied to artistic works like movies or even video games. I noticed it when people started using the term “gamer” to identify themselves, which was a marketing term that was thrown on mountain dew bottles. It is a weird offshoot of modern capitalism that is kinda poisonous. I’ve really had to think hard about who I talk about movies with. Absolutely. It's funny pointing out to otherwise intelligent people I know that they're ignoring something they've criticised in a movie they didn't like when that same thing happens in a movie they like. A lot of people don't understand that pointing out a flaw doesn't mean saying something isn't enjoyable, or even necessarily that it's bad. But it's important to understand why - culturally - a movie like No Country for Old Men is better than... Lucky Number Slevin, to stick with a movie in roughly the same genre (that isn't actually that bad, just isn't as good). Or why The Dark Knight is better than The Dark Knight Rises, or why The Dark Knight Rises is deeply flawed but still very good on a few levels. Or why Daredevil is better than Arrow. And so on and so forth. And of course the converse; pointing out why certain movies people hate are better than they think. I might as well have a T-Shirt reading 'Matrix Reloaded Apologist' for how many debates I've had to have pointing out why that movie isn't as bad as people think. Our culture is better for proper critique and understanding. But people attaching identity to the things they like is eroding that.
Anybody with anything bad to say about Black Lighting is just wrong.
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On February 02 2018 09:07 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 09:04 iamthedave wrote:On February 02 2018 05:28 Leporello wrote:On February 02 2018 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2018 04:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 02 2018 01:25 IyMoon wrote:
Lets get it going guys!
What should we place on odds?
Is it a ban bet? Paypal someone something? Who gets to be the ref? (It 100% should be GH) I approve this message On February 02 2018 02:20 Danglars wrote:On February 02 2018 02:14 Leporello wrote:
Hooray for partisan memo day! I can't wait for Nunes to expose the FBI's troubling behavior of spying on Russians and Russo-Americans like Carter Page to the public. This just in: American citizens can be "Russo-Americans" undeserving of constitutional protections like the Fourth Amendment against spying. I thought Democrats were into civil rights, even including criminals on trial? Maybe I'm relying on outdated assumptions about Democrats. Americans that deal with Russians get put on the gangplank these days. You don't need me to remind you why this is gross do you? I know you feel silly for this now. On February 02 2018 04:47 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. Though Kwark and Modoo are filthy centrist according to some. Come on, Kwark self-identifies as a coinservative (typo that I'm keeping). The US political spectrum is FUBAR. Kwark seems to identify as conservative while also saying the American version of conservatism is a bastardization of sorts. I think he's much more fond of the European definition of conservative. With the exception of a very strange few, such as Nigel Farge, UK conservatives seem to have a distaste for US conservatives. Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear fame is rather conservative in British press. Hated Bush. Loved Obama. Generally speaking. Our go-to description of the US conservatives is: "Our Conservatives are your Democrats, and your Conservatives are the BNP/UKIP." There's a unique quality to it in the UK though, where as soon as someone gets out beyond the Conservative Party they almost instantly start saying spectacularly racist things, and in the UK it's very hard to get away with that and retain a meaningful career. Some do it. Boris Johnson's career is the political village idiot, but we have a broadly held-to standard of behaviour for our politicians, and we tend to drop the hammer hard if we catch them out. From all I see over in the US, you seem to let your electeds get away with just about anything. The obvious answer is that the US population is much more racist itself so more people are ok with politicians making racist remarks, because they agree with them.
Our nation has such a problem with racism that we can’t never use the word racist. We have to use phrases like “racially charged” to avoid a complete denial of the problem. We can’t point out racism, and if we do, we get blamed for brining it up.
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On February 02 2018 09:04 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 05:28 Leporello wrote:On February 02 2018 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2018 04:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 02 2018 01:25 IyMoon wrote:
Lets get it going guys!
What should we place on odds?
Is it a ban bet? Paypal someone something? Who gets to be the ref? (It 100% should be GH) I approve this message On February 02 2018 02:20 Danglars wrote:On February 02 2018 02:14 Leporello wrote:
Hooray for partisan memo day! I can't wait for Nunes to expose the FBI's troubling behavior of spying on Russians and Russo-Americans like Carter Page to the public. This just in: American citizens can be "Russo-Americans" undeserving of constitutional protections like the Fourth Amendment against spying. I thought Democrats were into civil rights, even including criminals on trial? Maybe I'm relying on outdated assumptions about Democrats. Americans that deal with Russians get put on the gangplank these days. You don't need me to remind you why this is gross do you? I know you feel silly for this now. On February 02 2018 04:47 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. Though Kwark and Modoo are filthy centrist according to some. Come on, Kwark self-identifies as a coinservative (typo that I'm keeping). The US political spectrum is FUBAR. Kwark seems to identify as conservative while also saying the American version of conservatism is a bastardization of sorts. I think he's much more fond of the European definition of conservative. With the exception of a very strange few, such as Nigel Farge, UK conservatives seem to have a distaste for US conservatives. Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear fame is rather conservative in British press. Hated Bush. Loved Obama. Generally speaking. Our go-to description of the US conservatives is: "Our Conservatives are your Democrats, and your Conservatives are the BNP/UKIP." There's a unique quality to it in the UK though, where as soon as someone gets out beyond the Conservative Party they almost instantly start saying spectacularly racist things, and in the UK it's very hard to get away with that and retain a meaningful career. Some do it. Boris Johnson's career is the political village idiot, but we have a broadly held-to standard of behaviour for our politicians, and we tend to drop the hammer hard if we catch them out. From all I see over in the US, you seem to let your electeds get away with just about anything.
US conservatives on UK: Hmm, all the anti-Brexit diatribes sound an awful lot of what Democrats accuse the Republicans of. Nativism, racism, zenophobia.
Oh, look. Brexit won. And Leaver are being made out to be evil and stupid at the same time.
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This shit would have ended political careers just 10 years ago. It is terrifying that the conservative house members pull this shit and then get a glad hand from Paul Ryan so they will vote for whatever shit he put in front of them:
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On February 02 2018 09:15 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 09:04 iamthedave wrote:On February 02 2018 05:28 Leporello wrote:On February 02 2018 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2018 04:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 02 2018 01:25 IyMoon wrote:
Lets get it going guys!
What should we place on odds?
Is it a ban bet? Paypal someone something? Who gets to be the ref? (It 100% should be GH) I approve this message On February 02 2018 02:20 Danglars wrote:On February 02 2018 02:14 Leporello wrote:
Hooray for partisan memo day! I can't wait for Nunes to expose the FBI's troubling behavior of spying on Russians and Russo-Americans like Carter Page to the public. This just in: American citizens can be "Russo-Americans" undeserving of constitutional protections like the Fourth Amendment against spying. I thought Democrats were into civil rights, even including criminals on trial? Maybe I'm relying on outdated assumptions about Democrats. Americans that deal with Russians get put on the gangplank these days. You don't need me to remind you why this is gross do you? I know you feel silly for this now. On February 02 2018 04:47 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. Though Kwark and Modoo are filthy centrist according to some. Come on, Kwark self-identifies as a coinservative (typo that I'm keeping). The US political spectrum is FUBAR. Kwark seems to identify as conservative while also saying the American version of conservatism is a bastardization of sorts. I think he's much more fond of the European definition of conservative. With the exception of a very strange few, such as Nigel Farge, UK conservatives seem to have a distaste for US conservatives. Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear fame is rather conservative in British press. Hated Bush. Loved Obama. Generally speaking. Our go-to description of the US conservatives is: "Our Conservatives are your Democrats, and your Conservatives are the BNP/UKIP." There's a unique quality to it in the UK though, where as soon as someone gets out beyond the Conservative Party they almost instantly start saying spectacularly racist things, and in the UK it's very hard to get away with that and retain a meaningful career. Some do it. Boris Johnson's career is the political village idiot, but we have a broadly held-to standard of behaviour for our politicians, and we tend to drop the hammer hard if we catch them out. From all I see over in the US, you seem to let your electeds get away with just about anything. US conservatives on UK: Hmm, all the anti-Brexit diatribes sound an awful lot of what Democrats accuse the Republicans of. Nativism, racism, zenophobia. Oh, look. Brexit won. And Leaver are being made out to be evil and stupid at the same time.
Yeah, that is the reason he said Us conservatives were like UKIP. I’ve seen UKIP political ads from around the Brexit vote, they are not shy with the xenophobia.
Also, winning =/= right/just/moral
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UKIP isn't exactly doing so hot right now either.
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On February 02 2018 09:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 09:15 Danglars wrote:On February 02 2018 09:04 iamthedave wrote:On February 02 2018 05:28 Leporello wrote:On February 02 2018 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On February 02 2018 04:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 02 2018 01:25 IyMoon wrote:
Lets get it going guys!
What should we place on odds?
Is it a ban bet? Paypal someone something? Who gets to be the ref? (It 100% should be GH) I approve this message On February 02 2018 02:20 Danglars wrote:On February 02 2018 02:14 Leporello wrote:
Hooray for partisan memo day! I can't wait for Nunes to expose the FBI's troubling behavior of spying on Russians and Russo-Americans like Carter Page to the public. This just in: American citizens can be "Russo-Americans" undeserving of constitutional protections like the Fourth Amendment against spying. I thought Democrats were into civil rights, even including criminals on trial? Maybe I'm relying on outdated assumptions about Democrats. Americans that deal with Russians get put on the gangplank these days. You don't need me to remind you why this is gross do you? I know you feel silly for this now. On February 02 2018 04:47 Plansix wrote:
Seems accurate. Though Kwark and Modoo are filthy centrist according to some. Come on, Kwark self-identifies as a coinservative (typo that I'm keeping). The US political spectrum is FUBAR. Kwark seems to identify as conservative while also saying the American version of conservatism is a bastardization of sorts. I think he's much more fond of the European definition of conservative. With the exception of a very strange few, such as Nigel Farge, UK conservatives seem to have a distaste for US conservatives. Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear fame is rather conservative in British press. Hated Bush. Loved Obama. Generally speaking. Our go-to description of the US conservatives is: "Our Conservatives are your Democrats, and your Conservatives are the BNP/UKIP." There's a unique quality to it in the UK though, where as soon as someone gets out beyond the Conservative Party they almost instantly start saying spectacularly racist things, and in the UK it's very hard to get away with that and retain a meaningful career. Some do it. Boris Johnson's career is the political village idiot, but we have a broadly held-to standard of behaviour for our politicians, and we tend to drop the hammer hard if we catch them out. From all I see over in the US, you seem to let your electeds get away with just about anything. US conservatives on UK: Hmm, all the anti-Brexit diatribes sound an awful lot of what Democrats accuse the Republicans of. Nativism, racism, zenophobia. Oh, look. Brexit won. And Leaver are being made out to be evil and stupid at the same time. Yeah, that is the reason he said Us conservatives were like UKIP. I’ve seen UKIP political ads from around the Brexit vote, they are not shy with the xenophobia. Also, winning =/= right/just/moral
UKIP, the party "britain first" wanted you to vote for.
I mean.. I'm not sure if Danglars realises with what kind of caliber he shot his own foot, but man, that was a stupid comparison. Or rather, spot on.
Of course, to understand that, you'd need to actually understand what's going on in the UK.
UKIP isn't exactly doing so hot right now either.
Like most racist european parties, they are in complete disarray. AfD in germany is like a mirror image.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Populism comes and goes in waves. Though they make good points, their tendency towards ineptitude in governance keeps them from being a stable entity.
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EPT
