|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 26 2018 06:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On January 26 2018 06:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 06:16 Gorsameth wrote:On January 26 2018 05:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 04:54 GreenHorizons wrote:There's even more to the Drug Wars: Heroin story when you look at Afghanistan and it's Heroin production before and after we invaded. Also the strange coincidence that while Afghanistan provides most of the worlds Heroin virtually none of it seems to come here according to the DEA. Of course there's an alternative explanation that goes something like the CIA is trafficking drugs again and this time it's Heroin out of Afghanistan. Then the DEA also conveniently only arrest/seize their competition from Mexico/South America (Columbia). Naturally sometimes this causes mix ups with their street dealers. Officers from the 12th precinct, who were "pretending" to sell drugs in an attempt to arrest drug users, were approached by two officers from the 11th precinct, who treated them as they would any other “drug dealers” and attempted to arrest them. The city’s police chief called the move a “very embarrassing situation.” Source Another fact free assertion with no evidence. This theory makes no sense. What exactly do the CIA get out of running this supposed program, besides the eventual uncovering of the operation, resulting in severe damage to the agency? Where does the money go? Why would the CIA not simply get its budget by asking Congress for money, like it does every single year as part of the normal appropriations process? You seem to have uncritically bought Gary Webb's conspiracy theories about the CIA selling drugs to Americans to fund their operations. An article about 2 undercover Detroit cops get busted by other Detroit cops has precisely nothing to do with Afghanistan or the CIA. I assume the CIA has to explain where they spend the money from Congress to the Intelligence committee? The use of a drug money operation is to get money that you don't have to declare. Right, my question is, assuming what you are saying is true, why does the CIA want this money so badly they will violate literally every rule in place about CIA operations to get it? What could possibly be so important? Operations and assets that they don't want Congress to know about obviously. Which can be exposed by a bunch of reporters figuring it out and writing a story about it? I get that it seems like it would work, but it would also be super easy to figure out. Also, how do they use this drug money? Is there a debt card or something? Do they just add it into the budget each year? How do they move it around?
How do Drug Cartels use drug money...
|
On January 26 2018 06:51 kollin wrote:
I'm surprised given everything that has happened in the last 70 years regarding US intelligence agencies that anyone is willing to dismiss any theory, especially one relating to:
Drugs
The CIA
Morally egregious shit that sounds unbelievable
I feel like if GH posted here 8 years ago that the US government was actively surveiling the entire worlds communications in every form, including US citizens, a good number of people would have told him to take the tinfoil hat off
But everyone loves the CIA now because they oppose Trump. Or something to that measure.
GH's claim oversteps by quite a bit, but I would be just as surprised if the CIA wasn't getting information from someone involved in the Afghan drug trade business.
|
On January 26 2018 06:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 06:29 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2018 05:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 04:54 GreenHorizons wrote:There's even more to the Drug Wars: Heroin story when you look at Afghanistan and it's Heroin production before and after we invaded. Also the strange coincidence that while Afghanistan provides most of the worlds Heroin virtually none of it seems to come here according to the DEA. Of course there's an alternative explanation that goes something like the CIA is trafficking drugs again and this time it's Heroin out of Afghanistan. Then the DEA also conveniently only arrest/seize their competition from Mexico/South America (Columbia). Naturally sometimes this causes mix ups with their street dealers. Officers from the 12th precinct, who were "pretending" to sell drugs in an attempt to arrest drug users, were approached by two officers from the 11th precinct, who treated them as they would any other “drug dealers” and attempted to arrest them. The city’s police chief called the move a “very embarrassing situation.” Source Another fact free assertion with no evidence. This theory makes no sense. What exactly do the CIA get out of running this supposed program, besides the eventual uncovering of the operation, resulting in severe damage to the agency? Where does the money go? Why would the CIA not simply get its budget by asking Congress for money, like it does every single year as part of the normal appropriations process? You seem to have uncritically bought Gary Webb's conspiracy theories about the CIA selling drugs to Americans to fund their operations. An article about 2 undercover Detroit cops get busted by other Detroit cops has precisely nothing to do with Afghanistan or the CIA. The long and short of it is that the CIA is part of the Military-industrial complex and drugs are an important part. Sources are sketchy regarding details, but without bickering over specific numbers or accepting causation there's a clear correlation to the US being in Afghanistan and their heroin production almost tripling, alongside of Heroin use and deaths in the US. I feel like this one little blurb sums the game up pretty well. Eradicating opium poppies has been a key pillar of U.S. policy in Afghanistan since 2004, said Doug Wankel, director of the U.S. Counter-Narcotics Task Force in Afghanistan.
Yet today, Afghanistan produces roughly 93 percent of the world's illicit opium, according to the UNODC report, and the Taliban are making inroads in remote areas of the country thanks, in part, to proceeds from the drug trade. SourceEDIT: This triggered a great terrible idea. We should just ship our shitty police departments over there and let them handle all the drug dealers. You have literally no evidence. Got it. EDIT: That article you linked says the US wants to stop opium and heroin production in Afghanistan, and the Taliban are the ones trying to grow it in order to get money to fund their operations. Why do you think it's actually the other way around, on the basis of absolutely nothing? Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 06:29 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2018 05:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 04:54 GreenHorizons wrote:There's even more to the Drug Wars: Heroin story when you look at Afghanistan and it's Heroin production before and after we invaded. Also the strange coincidence that while Afghanistan provides most of the worlds Heroin virtually none of it seems to come here according to the DEA. Of course there's an alternative explanation that goes something like the CIA is trafficking drugs again and this time it's Heroin out of Afghanistan. Then the DEA also conveniently only arrest/seize their competition from Mexico/South America (Columbia). Naturally sometimes this causes mix ups with their street dealers. Officers from the 12th precinct, who were "pretending" to sell drugs in an attempt to arrest drug users, were approached by two officers from the 11th precinct, who treated them as they would any other “drug dealers” and attempted to arrest them. The city’s police chief called the move a “very embarrassing situation.” Source Another fact free assertion with no evidence. This theory makes no sense. What exactly do the CIA get out of running this supposed program, besides the eventual uncovering of the operation, resulting in severe damage to the agency? Where does the money go? Why would the CIA not simply get its budget by asking Congress for money, like it does every single year as part of the normal appropriations process? You seem to have uncritically bought Gary Webb's conspiracy theories about the CIA selling drugs to Americans to fund their operations. An article about 2 undercover Detroit cops get busted by other Detroit cops has precisely nothing to do with Afghanistan or the CIA. The long and short of it is that the CIA is part of the Military-industrial complex and drugs are an important part. Sources are sketchy regarding details, but without bickering over specific numbers or accepting causation there's a clear correlation to the US being in Afghanistan and their heroin production almost tripling, alongside of Heroin use and deaths in the US. I feel like this one little blurb sums the game up pretty well. Eradicating opium poppies has been a key pillar of U.S. policy in Afghanistan since 2004, said Doug Wankel, director of the U.S. Counter-Narcotics Task Force in Afghanistan.
Yet today, Afghanistan produces roughly 93 percent of the world's illicit opium, according to the UNODC report, and the Taliban are making inroads in remote areas of the country thanks, in part, to proceeds from the drug trade. SourceEDIT: This triggered a great terrible idea. We should just ship our shitty police departments over there and let them handle all the drug dealers. You have literally no evidence. Got it. No, the cop thing was a joke and you clearly have a dramatically different interpretation of US foreign affairs and I'm not interested in going through the entirety of the US international drug trade with you. We have a heroin epidemic in the US, we also oversaw the rapid growth of Heroin production in Afghanistan from a low in 2001 (when the Taliban had nearly eradicated poppy production in the country in a single year) Show nested quote +The first American narcotics experts to go to Afghanistan under Taliban rule have concluded that the movement's ban on opium-poppy cultivation appears to have wiped out the world's largest crop in less than a year, officials said today. www.nytimes.comto now record level production: Show nested quote +The production increased by 87 percent and stands at a record level of 9,921 tons so far in 2017, compared to the 2016 levels of 5,291 tons. www.cbsnews.comBut it's crazy to think it was intentional. Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 06:43 Plansix wrote:On January 26 2018 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On January 26 2018 06:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 06:16 Gorsameth wrote:On January 26 2018 05:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 04:54 GreenHorizons wrote:There's even more to the Drug Wars: Heroin story when you look at Afghanistan and it's Heroin production before and after we invaded. Also the strange coincidence that while Afghanistan provides most of the worlds Heroin virtually none of it seems to come here according to the DEA. Of course there's an alternative explanation that goes something like the CIA is trafficking drugs again and this time it's Heroin out of Afghanistan. Then the DEA also conveniently only arrest/seize their competition from Mexico/South America (Columbia). Naturally sometimes this causes mix ups with their street dealers. Officers from the 12th precinct, who were "pretending" to sell drugs in an attempt to arrest drug users, were approached by two officers from the 11th precinct, who treated them as they would any other “drug dealers” and attempted to arrest them. The city’s police chief called the move a “very embarrassing situation.” Source Another fact free assertion with no evidence. This theory makes no sense. What exactly do the CIA get out of running this supposed program, besides the eventual uncovering of the operation, resulting in severe damage to the agency? Where does the money go? Why would the CIA not simply get its budget by asking Congress for money, like it does every single year as part of the normal appropriations process? You seem to have uncritically bought Gary Webb's conspiracy theories about the CIA selling drugs to Americans to fund their operations. An article about 2 undercover Detroit cops get busted by other Detroit cops has precisely nothing to do with Afghanistan or the CIA. I assume the CIA has to explain where they spend the money from Congress to the Intelligence committee? The use of a drug money operation is to get money that you don't have to declare. Right, my question is, assuming what you are saying is true, why does the CIA want this money so badly they will violate literally every rule in place about CIA operations to get it? What could possibly be so important? Operations and assets that they don't want Congress to know about obviously. Which can be exposed by a bunch of reporters figuring it out and writing a story about it? I get that it seems like it would work, but it would also be super easy to figure out. Also, how do they use this drug money? Is there a debt card or something? Do they just add it into the budget each year? How do they move it around? I mean obviously it's a dramatic interpretation but I feel like the Punisher series gives you a theatrical version of how this stuff works. It's such a longstanding story told by veterans (the "what am II actually fighting for?" question and media alike it's a bit strange to me people still presume the CIA and US MIC are altruistic organizations.
If the Taliban were slapping up heroin production, then the US gave the Taliban other things to worry about, while the US government ignores heroin production, wouldn't that have an enormous impact on heroin production?
Then again, if I was being a little generous, I may wonder if the entire reason for the US being in Afghanistan actually had a lot to do with protecting heroin production for the benefit of the CIA. Ohhhh snap!
|
On January 26 2018 06:52 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 06:43 Plansix wrote:On January 26 2018 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On January 26 2018 06:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 06:16 Gorsameth wrote:On January 26 2018 05:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On January 26 2018 04:54 GreenHorizons wrote:There's even more to the Drug Wars: Heroin story when you look at Afghanistan and it's Heroin production before and after we invaded. Also the strange coincidence that while Afghanistan provides most of the worlds Heroin virtually none of it seems to come here according to the DEA. Of course there's an alternative explanation that goes something like the CIA is trafficking drugs again and this time it's Heroin out of Afghanistan. Then the DEA also conveniently only arrest/seize their competition from Mexico/South America (Columbia). Naturally sometimes this causes mix ups with their street dealers. Officers from the 12th precinct, who were "pretending" to sell drugs in an attempt to arrest drug users, were approached by two officers from the 11th precinct, who treated them as they would any other “drug dealers” and attempted to arrest them. The city’s police chief called the move a “very embarrassing situation.” Source Another fact free assertion with no evidence. This theory makes no sense. What exactly do the CIA get out of running this supposed program, besides the eventual uncovering of the operation, resulting in severe damage to the agency? Where does the money go? Why would the CIA not simply get its budget by asking Congress for money, like it does every single year as part of the normal appropriations process? You seem to have uncritically bought Gary Webb's conspiracy theories about the CIA selling drugs to Americans to fund their operations. An article about 2 undercover Detroit cops get busted by other Detroit cops has precisely nothing to do with Afghanistan or the CIA. I assume the CIA has to explain where they spend the money from Congress to the Intelligence committee? The use of a drug money operation is to get money that you don't have to declare. Right, my question is, assuming what you are saying is true, why does the CIA want this money so badly they will violate literally every rule in place about CIA operations to get it? What could possibly be so important? Operations and assets that they don't want Congress to know about obviously. Which can be exposed by a bunch of reporters figuring it out and writing a story about it? I get that it seems like it would work, but it would also be super easy to figure out. Also, how do they use this drug money? Is there a debt card or something? Do they just add it into the budget each year? How do they move it around? How do Drug Cartels use drug money...
In a super limited fashion that is pretty easy to trace once it hits the regular market. That is why money laundering is a thing. I think people are under estimating how difficult this would be to keep under wraps. The CIA would need to be wildly competent and leak proof, which directly conflicts with the reality of the CIA has been since that war started.
I’m not saying the CIA wouldn’t do it. I’m saying they couldn’t do it without people finding out because they are simply not that good.
|
On January 26 2018 06:54 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 06:51 kollin wrote:
I'm surprised given everything that has happened in the last 70 years regarding US intelligence agencies that anyone is willing to dismiss any theory, especially one relating to:
Drugs
The CIA
Morally egregious shit that sounds unbelievable
I feel like if GH posted here 8 years ago that the US government was actively surveiling the entire worlds communications in every form, including US citizens, a good number of people would have told him to take the tinfoil hat off But everyone loves the CIA now because they oppose Trump. Or something to that measure. GH's claim oversteps by quite a bit, but I would be just as surprised if the CIA wasn't getting information from someone involved in the Afghan drug trade business.
I was being intentionally provocative. The point was the leading producer of the drug in the epidemic (if we exclude pharmaceutical corps) was a country that literally eradicated the problem before we got there and has gotten increasingly worse the longer we've been there.
It should be abundantly obvious to everyone involved at this point that the US government has more interest in perpetuating the problem than solving it.
The longer they can get people to be apologists for them and blame everything on some form of acceptable incompetence the longer they can keep the hustle going.
|
United States44181 Posts
Next GH is going to allege that the CIA fucked up polio eradication efforts by using polio vaccination as a front to hunt for Bin Laden, or that the head of the CIA personally directed that missile parts be sent to Iran in payment for their intercession with Hezbollah.
|
Canada11577 Posts
How about when you overthrow an entrenched government, even if you institute a replacement government, chaos still abounds? Into a power vaccuum farmers are apt to grow whatever will sell best to get ahead... add to that the Taliban still breathing down their necks, it seems to be just the sort of scenario where opium production is increased. It's like saying the ethnic violence in Iraq was a deliberate plot by the CIA to lower the population numbers in Iraq. Those tensions always existed, but once you overthrow the brutal dictator that kinda knocked head heads together to keep them in line, the problems that always exist manifest and flourish. Unintended consequences of destabilization cannot be underestimated, and I would be hesitant to ascribe malicious intent with no evidence except a correlation.
It should be abundantly obvious to everyone involved at this point that the US government has more interest in perpetuating the problem than solving it
Say what you want about Bush Jr, who got us into Afghanistan in the first place, but I don't think he's your man for wanting to drug America or the world with increased opium productions in Afghanistan. For all his faults, I wouldn't believe such a plot by him unless I heard it on tape.
|
On January 26 2018 06:51 kollin wrote:
I'm surprised given everything that has happened in the last 70 years regarding US intelligence agencies that anyone is willing to dismiss any theory, especially one relating to:
Drugs
The CIA
Morally egregious shit that sounds unbelievable
I feel like if GH posted here 8 years ago that the US government was actively surveiling the entire worlds communications in every form, including US citizens, a good number of people would have told him to take the tinfoil hat off
Surveillance is obvious because the US government wants information, and come the era of social media it's easy and simple to gather.
Likewise, terrorist organizations being in the drug trade is simple and obvious because, duh, they need money. Drugs are good money, especially for organizations already involved in the international black market trade.
Occam's Razor.
On January 26 2018 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 06:54 Logo wrote:On January 26 2018 06:51 kollin wrote:
I'm surprised given everything that has happened in the last 70 years regarding US intelligence agencies that anyone is willing to dismiss any theory, especially one relating to:
Drugs
The CIA
Morally egregious shit that sounds unbelievable
I feel like if GH posted here 8 years ago that the US government was actively surveiling the entire worlds communications in every form, including US citizens, a good number of people would have told him to take the tinfoil hat off But everyone loves the CIA now because they oppose Trump. Or something to that measure. GH's claim oversteps by quite a bit, but I would be just as surprised if the CIA wasn't getting information from someone involved in the Afghan drug trade business. I was being intentionally provocative. The point was the leading producer of the drug in the epidemic (if we exclude pharmaceutical corps) was a country that literally eradicated the problem before we got there and has gotten increasingly worse the longer we've been there.
Not sure if you've noticed, but the destabilization of Middle Eastern governments is a thing that happened post-War on Terror.
You don't need intent to fuck up, you just need to fuck up. And the latter is much easier.
|
|
|
Yeah, sure. I bet. I'll wait until he Tweets. You know, something more official.
|
Until the bill is passed, none of this is real. If Trump is really behind this, he will need to break peoples arms in the House to get that bill through.
|
On January 26 2018 07:13 Plansix wrote:
Until the bill is passed, none of this is real. If Trump is really behind this, he will need to break peoples arms in the House to get that bill through.
The idea of republicans going many steps beyond DACA just sounds like complete madness. Are Democrats even asking for this? I'm just so confused.
|
On January 26 2018 07:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 07:13 Plansix wrote:
Until the bill is passed, none of this is real. If Trump is really behind this, he will need to break peoples arms in the House to get that bill through. The idea of republicans going many steps beyond DACA just sounds like complete madness. Are Democrats even asking for this? I'm just so confused.
Trump owns Republican party and controls their base. Their base doesn’t like congress and they like Trump. DACA is super popular with everyone in country expect self identifying Republicans. But those same people want a secure border. So the Democrats give them a bunch of money and the Democrats get DACA.
|
I believe I mentioned that Republicans will call the DACA bid from Democrats 'to far' and use that to try and blame them for the next shutdown when the 3 week extension runs out.
This feels like the WH setting up that line.
|
Isn't Trump forsaking his party and basically one of the main messages he used to drive himself into office? What would force him to take such dramatic steps against Republican normalcy? Is this a negotiation tactic to get the wall in exchange for Dreamers?
|
On January 26 2018 07:21 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Isn't Trump forsaking his party and basically one of the main messages he used to drive himself into office? What would force him to take such dramatic steps against Republican normalcy? Is this a negotiation tactic to get the wall in exchange for Dreamers?
The only way I see this being true is if Democrats offered full wall funding. 100% funding for a tall and glorious wall. But the concession being that Trump has to be otherwise humane.
|
On January 26 2018 07:21 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Isn't Trump forsaking his party and basically one of the main messages he used to drive himself into office? What would force him to take such dramatic steps against Republican normalcy? Is this a negotiation tactic to get the wall in exchange for Dreamers?
Yes, but deporting the dreamers isn’t a viable solution for the Republicans. The hard liners might want it, but it is political suicide. That is around 2 million deportations of model immigrants who have lived in the country their entire lives. To nations where they don’t even speak the language and may not even accept them. Some are service members. Some served in Iraq. It is a nightmare and the Republicans know it.
|
On January 26 2018 07:26 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 07:21 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Isn't Trump forsaking his party and basically one of the main messages he used to drive himself into office? What would force him to take such dramatic steps against Republican normalcy? Is this a negotiation tactic to get the wall in exchange for Dreamers? The only way I see this being true is if Democrats offered full wall funding. 100% funding for a tall and glorious wall. But the concession being that Trump has to be otherwise humane.
That's pretty much this deal it seems. And as fiscally irresponsible and ineffective as a wall is, it's a price I'm willing to pay for getting an immigration fix.
Maybe Schumer was on to something when he took the wall funding off the table. It kinda looks like he put it back in as part of the deal in exchange for some stuff.
|
Miller has approved that deal apparently, so it may actually happen. Monday is going to be big.
|
It is funding for the wall and some other immigration concession. No merit based system, but they want to stop immigrants from bringing over parents(?). I’m pretty sure the parent thing is DOA. They also want to speed up deportations and increase the number of deportations. And there is a quote form ICE floating around where they straight up say “After March 5th, we will deport Dreamers if we come in contact with them.” The part that is left out is they have the address of ever person protected by DACA.
Its seems like a lot of concessions, but most of this stuff Trump could do on his own. There might be a chance to cut this deal if Trump can keep Miller from fucking it up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
