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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-25 22:52:40
January 25 2018 22:47 GMT
#195541
On January 26 2018 07:43 Plansix wrote:
It is funding for the wall and some other immigration concession. No merit based system, but they want to stop immigrants from bringing over parents(?). I’m pretty sure the parent thing is DOA. They also want to speed up deportations and increase the number of deportations. And there is a quote form ICE floating around where they straight up say “After March 5th, we will deport Dreamers if we come in contact with them.” The part that is left out is they have the address of ever person protected by DACA.

Its seems like a lot of concessions, but most of this stuff Trump could do on his own. There might be a chance to cut this deal if Trump can keep Miller from fucking it up.


According to the BBC, Miller is the one who announced the deal, so unlikely he would stop it. IMO the Dems run with this. You can always try and fix the parents thing another time. Getting protection for those 1.8 million is much more important atm.

The wall is whatever at this point. Let it sink the administration when it's a disaster or never gets done because it's in court forever.
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
January 25 2018 22:54 GMT
#195542
On January 26 2018 07:47 On_Slaught wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2018 07:43 Plansix wrote:
It is funding for the wall and some other immigration concession. No merit based system, but they want to stop immigrants from bringing over parents(?). I’m pretty sure the parent thing is DOA. They also want to speed up deportations and increase the number of deportations. And there is a quote form ICE floating around where they straight up say “After March 5th, we will deport Dreamers if we come in contact with them.” The part that is left out is they have the address of ever person protected by DACA.

Its seems like a lot of concessions, but most of this stuff Trump could do on his own. There might be a chance to cut this deal if Trump can keep Miller from fucking it up.


According to the BBC, Miller is the one who announced the deal, so unlikely he would stop it. IMO the Dems run with this. You can always try and fix the parents thing another time. Getting protection for those 1.8 million is much more important atm.

The wall is whatever at this point. Let it sink the administration when it's a disaster or never gets done because it's in court forever.


I am 100% down with the wall we pay for just so I can point out how we are paying for it to every trump supporter I know
Something witty
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-25 22:59:18
January 25 2018 22:58 GMT
#195543
Well it seems the wall isn't the issue but rather the crackdown and immigration change parts. A lot of Dems already saying no to the deal. I suppose those could be Pandora box. Still, I'm not sure how much better a deal the Dems could get. You can always return to those policies once you've taken back the government (however long that takes...).
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-25 23:01:51
January 25 2018 22:59 GMT
#195544
Is there a write up on this deal I can read?
Something witty
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-25 23:01:43
January 25 2018 23:01 GMT
#195545
Double post, please delete
Something witty
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 25 2018 23:07 GMT
#195546
On January 26 2018 07:59 IyMoon wrote:
Is there a write up on this deal I can read?


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/us/politics/trump-immigration-plan-white-house.html

The crack down on immigration in writing seems a bit much. Trump controls ICE, so it isn't necessary. Speeding up deportations will be a problem as well, mostly because ICE has a bad habit of trying to deport US citizens/greencard holders.

Frankly, the wall is the easy part.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23191 Posts
January 25 2018 23:08 GMT
#195547
On January 26 2018 07:03 KwarK wrote:
Next GH is going to allege that the CIA fucked up polio eradication efforts by using polio vaccination as a front to hunt for Bin Laden, or that the head of the CIA personally directed that missile parts be sent to Iran in payment for their intercession with Hezbollah.


Don't worry, you'll all be back to Russia, the last dumb thing Trump said and the panic it caused in no time. Meanwhile they'll keep extracting an overwhelming share of the wealth and concentrating it in fewer hands.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-25 23:10:00
January 25 2018 23:08 GMT
#195548
There's no way you're going to get a DREAM bill passed in the current Congress without stopping the children who were brought here illegally from giving their parents a shortcut to the head of the citizenship/green card application line. It's just not going to happen. Worse, it flies in the face of all the Democrat messaging on the issue.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4742 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-25 23:09:51
January 25 2018 23:08 GMT
#195549


The Dreamer expansion is huge (~800k --> 2 mil). Democrats should jump on this. I need to see if that chain migration offer is just for Dreamers or not. For 1.8 mil people it should be for immigration generally.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15664 Posts
January 25 2018 23:10 GMT
#195550
On January 26 2018 08:08 Introvert wrote:
https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/956660935976017921

The Dreamer expansion is huge (~800k --> 2 mil). Democrats should jump on this. I need to see if that chain migration offer is just for Dreamers or not. For 1.8 mil people it should be for immigration generally.


Sign me up. All of this is totally fine by me.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
January 25 2018 23:12 GMT
#195551
If the "chain migration" fix is only for the DACA/DREAM folks I don't see much of a problem. If it's all immigration it's quite a terrible idea (married people have talent and merit too).
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4742 Posts
January 25 2018 23:12 GMT
#195552
Also, we know the CIA and DEA wanted to go after Hezbollah drug businesses but we're stopped by the admin for the Iran deal. I'm going to go with, no, the CIA isn't helping run drug farms.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4742 Posts
January 25 2018 23:13 GMT
#195553
On January 26 2018 08:12 TheTenthDoc wrote:
If the "chain migration" fix is only for the DACA/DREAM folks I don't see much of a problem. If it's all immigration it's quite a terrible idea (married people have talent and merit too).


Read the tweet again. Spouses and minor children exempted.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
January 25 2018 23:14 GMT
#195554
On January 26 2018 08:13 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2018 08:12 TheTenthDoc wrote:
If the "chain migration" fix is only for the DACA/DREAM folks I don't see much of a problem. If it's all immigration it's quite a terrible idea (married people have talent and merit too).


Read the tweet again. Spouses and minor children exempted.


Oh, definitely saw "including." My bad.

People with dependent parents are also people with talent and merit, though
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23191 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-25 23:21:36
January 25 2018 23:15 GMT
#195555
On January 26 2018 08:12 Introvert wrote:
Also, we know the CIA and DEA wanted to go after Hezbollah drug businesses but we're stopped by the admin for the Iran deal. I'm going to go with, no, the CIA isn't helping run drug farms.


Do you ever wonder why the US's attempts to stop drugs domestically or abroad almost always end with wealthy drug dealers, dead/imprisoned poor people, and an increase in drug use but the Taliban eradicated the entire poppy production in a year?

I know, I know, miraculous coincidence and incompetence.

It's not a pattern unique to the drug trade. There's a wide plethora of problems that the US has an uncanny way of fixing by both making them worse for oppressed people and more profitable for those on the top.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-25 23:17:56
January 25 2018 23:16 GMT
#195556
Parents are a weird cut off, but I guess its because they came here illegal to begin with, so it sort of makes sense. I feel like if the parent is so ill they can no longer care for themselves, there should be an exception. If the Dreamer becomes a citizen, that is.

On January 26 2018 08:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2018 08:13 Introvert wrote:
On January 26 2018 08:12 TheTenthDoc wrote:
If the "chain migration" fix is only for the DACA/DREAM folks I don't see much of a problem. If it's all immigration it's quite a terrible idea (married people have talent and merit too).


Read the tweet again. Spouses and minor children exempted.


Oh, definitely saw "including." My bad.

People with dependent parents are also people with talent and merit, though

The dreamers were brought here illegally by their parents, so it kinda makes sense. Not really "chain migration", though.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-25 23:20:25
January 25 2018 23:19 GMT
#195557
On January 26 2018 08:16 Plansix wrote:
Parents are a weird cut off, but I guess its because they came here illegal to begin with, so it sort of makes sense. I feel like if the parent is so ill they can no longer care for themselves, there should be an exception. If the Dreamer becomes a citizen, that is.

Show nested quote +
On January 26 2018 08:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 26 2018 08:13 Introvert wrote:
On January 26 2018 08:12 TheTenthDoc wrote:
If the "chain migration" fix is only for the DACA/DREAM folks I don't see much of a problem. If it's all immigration it's quite a terrible idea (married people have talent and merit too).


Read the tweet again. Spouses and minor children exempted.


Oh, definitely saw "including." My bad.

People with dependent parents are also people with talent and merit, though

The dreamers were brought here illegally by their parents, so it kinda makes sense. Not really "chain migration", though.


Oh, I am totally fine with getting DREAM status including relinquishing the right to let your parent get an easier green card. I'm just not sure it makes sense to remove that ability for all citizens (birth or naturalized).

They're easier and more nuanced ways to deal with "birth tourism" imo.
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
January 25 2018 23:19 GMT
#195558
On January 26 2018 08:10 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2018 08:08 Introvert wrote:
https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/956660935976017921

The Dreamer expansion is huge (~800k --> 2 mil). Democrats should jump on this. I need to see if that chain migration offer is just for Dreamers or not. For 1.8 mil people it should be for immigration generally.


Sign me up. All of this is totally fine by me.



I would take this deal in a heartbeat. The dems should jump and claim a huge victory
Something witty
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 25 2018 23:20 GMT
#195559
On January 26 2018 08:19 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2018 08:16 Plansix wrote:
Parents are a weird cut off, but I guess its because they came here illegal to begin with, so it sort of makes sense. I feel like if the parent is so ill they can no longer care for themselves, there should be an exception. If the Dreamer becomes a citizen, that is.

On January 26 2018 08:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 26 2018 08:13 Introvert wrote:
On January 26 2018 08:12 TheTenthDoc wrote:
If the "chain migration" fix is only for the DACA/DREAM folks I don't see much of a problem. If it's all immigration it's quite a terrible idea (married people have talent and merit too).


Read the tweet again. Spouses and minor children exempted.


Oh, definitely saw "including." My bad.

People with dependent parents are also people with talent and merit, though

The dreamers were brought here illegally by their parents, so it kinda makes sense. Not really "chain migration", though.


Oh, I am totally fine with getting DREAM status including relinquishing the right to let your parent get an easier green card. I'm just not sure it makes sense to remove that ability for all citizens (birth or naturalized).

Yes. That should only be for the dreamers, not for immigrants at large. That is another good way to kill immigration to this country, baring people from caring for their parents.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
January 25 2018 23:27 GMT
#195560
On January 26 2018 08:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2018 08:12 Introvert wrote:
Also, we know the CIA and DEA wanted to go after Hezbollah drug businesses but we're stopped by the admin for the Iran deal. I'm going to go with, no, the CIA isn't helping run drug farms.


Do you ever wonder why the US's attempts to stop drugs domestically or abroad almost always end with wealthy drug dealers, dead/imprisoned poor people, and an increase in drug use but the Taliban eradicated the entire poppy production in a year?

I know, I know, miraculous coincidence and incompetence.

It's not a pattern unique to the drug trade. There's a wide plethora of problems that the US has an uncanny way of fixing by both making them worse for oppressed people and more profitable for those on the top.

This is why people don't take your arguments seriously.

So, take half a second and answer: What happened to the Taliban after 2001?

You answer that and you know why they're growing opium now instead of stomping it out. There's no coincidence and no conspiracy.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
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