|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 17 2018 07:15 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 04:31 Danglars wrote:
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. Is it that you think these statues are actually having a big impact on the decision making and whatnot? They feel much more symbolic than effective.
It’s as I said. Public consciousness and all that. The arguments to remove them rank high on the shitty/myopic/unsupported scale. In my earlier years, I would have thought the group that recognizes failure to encourage women in stem/the culture hurts women’s involvement in stem would be all on board with the smaller things influencing greater outcomes.
|
On January 17 2018 07:46 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:15 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too?
You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue.
That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point.
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. Is it that you think these statues are actually having a big impact on the decision making and whatnot? They feel much more symbolic than effective. It’s as I said. Public consciousness and all that. The arguments to remove them rank high on the shitty/myopic/unsupported scale. In my earlier years, I would have thought the group that recognizes failure to encourage women in stem/the culture hurts women’s involvement in stem would be all on board with the smaller things influencing greater outcomes.
So we should take down the statues that were put up by a bunch of racists to remind black people of their place? Because that is why those statues were put up.
|
On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free.
Ask for your money back. You should have learned that public displays help the national consciousness. That includes celebrating great men that weren’t saints through-and-through, and also points of national embarrassment that we should learn from in other ways. Maybe you learned but now choose to forget or not apply lessons from history in complicated figures that should lead to investigation and examination. If you think some conflicted figure gets a bad rap, go argue for an accompanying plaque instead of calling shit racist and moving on.
|
On January 17 2018 07:32 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too?
You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue.
That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point.
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. I mean there are statues of MLK but if they get torn down and defaced that would be okay because they don't preserve history and shouldn't be protected.
Clearly. Spray paint over Rosa Parks? Nothing to see here, just a bunch of kids, why was this up in the first place? Everybody knows there’s public libraries where we inter history! That’s the enlightened view!
I hear MLK cheated on his wife, so clearly any statues of him or boulevards named after him or holidays honoring him are problematic on women’s rights.
|
On January 17 2018 07:50 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too?
You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue.
That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point.
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. Ask for your money back. You should have learned that public displays help the national consciousness. That includes celebrating great men that weren’t saints through-and-through, and also points of national embarrassment that we should learn from in other ways. Maybe you learned but now choose to forget or not apply lessons from history in complicated figures that should lead to investigation and examination. If you think some conflicted figure gets a bad rap, go argue for an accompanying plaque instead of calling shit racist and moving on.
You have still not said why any of this is positive. What do we gain by celebrating these men?
|
On January 17 2018 07:50 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too?
You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue.
That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point.
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. Ask for your money back. You should have learned that public displays help the national consciousness. That includes celebrating great men that weren’t saints through-and-through, and also points of national embarrassment that we should learn from in other ways. Maybe you learned but now choose to forget or not apply lessons from history in complicated figures that should lead to investigation and examination. If you think some conflicted figure gets a bad rap, go argue for an accompanying plaque instead of calling shit racist and moving on.
I did learn all of that and it’s all written down in books. It is where they wrote down the last two verses to the national anthem. Not in the national consciousness, which would rather forget the history of slavery and oppression in our nation. Not in the statues erected by people wishing to rewrite the history of a war fought to preserve the enslavement of an entire race of people. Historians want to preserve an accurate retelling of history as it was, not as people wish to remember it.
Bring down all the statues. The historians will write down why there were put up and why they were taken down. We will never forget them.
|
On January 17 2018 07:54 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:32 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary.
I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.”
Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. I mean there are statues of MLK but if they get torn down and defaced that would be okay because they don't preserve history and shouldn't be protected. Clearly. Spray paint over Rosa Parks? Nothing to see here, just a bunch of kids, why was this up in the first place? Everybody knows there’s public libraries where we inter history! That’s the enlightened view! I hear MLK cheated on his wife, so clearly any statues of him or boulevards named after him or holidays honoring him are problematic on women’s rights.
This is pretty ironic, because most people who talk about MLK bemoan how sanitized his history has become in service of making him palpable to whites uncomfortable with the realities of the civil rights movement. Most people I know would love it if MLK was celebrated for more than a couple lines in “I have a dream.”
|
Stuffy white dudes getting uppity about disrespecting the anthem when most of em only know the equivalent of "I know the chorus cause it's on the radio, but then I quiet down a bit because I don't know the rest of the words but pretend I do" add a whole extra layer of bullshit to the hypocrisy cake.
|
On January 17 2018 07:55 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:50 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary.
I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.”
Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. Ask for your money back. You should have learned that public displays help the national consciousness. That includes celebrating great men that weren’t saints through-and-through, and also points of national embarrassment that we should learn from in other ways. Maybe you learned but now choose to forget or not apply lessons from history in complicated figures that should lead to investigation and examination. If you think some conflicted figure gets a bad rap, go argue for an accompanying plaque instead of calling shit racist and moving on. You have still not said why any of this is positive. What do we gain by celebrating these men?
I’m gonna sounds trite here, but those who don’t remember the past are doomed to repeat it. Considering today’s public school system, national monuments are a very good thing.
Now, am I correct in assuming “public consciousness” is not a good for you. IE public ignorance of its history isn’t so bad? I pity your history programs. I really do. Mohdoo vs the Statue of Liberty I suppose. You’ve given me a great many reasons to believe you wouldn’t oppose the destruction or vandalizing of that one too.
|
On January 17 2018 07:32 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too?
You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue.
That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point.
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. I mean there are statues of MLK but if they get torn down and defaced that would be okay because they don't preserve history and shouldn't be protected.
You should follow the logic to the end, because it works.
1) Statues aren't about preserving history, they're about symbols and the views of the people who put them up.
2) Therefore if you are tearing down a confederate monument, you aren't attempting to erase history.
3) Therefore if you are tearing down a MLK monument, you aren't attempting to erase history either.
4) So it's all about symbols.
5) There is a difference between a symbol of the civil rights movement and a symbol of the confederate movement.
6) Therefore it wouldn't be the same to want to tear down that type of statue.
I know there are 6 points but it's still not that hard.
|
On January 17 2018 07:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:50 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary.
I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.”
Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. Ask for your money back. You should have learned that public displays help the national consciousness. That includes celebrating great men that weren’t saints through-and-through, and also points of national embarrassment that we should learn from in other ways. Maybe you learned but now choose to forget or not apply lessons from history in complicated figures that should lead to investigation and examination. If you think some conflicted figure gets a bad rap, go argue for an accompanying plaque instead of calling shit racist and moving on. I did learn all of that and it’s all written down in books. It is where they wrote down the last two verses to the national anthem. Not in the national consciousness, which would rather forget the history of slavery and oppression in our nation. Not in the statues erected by people wishing to rewrite the history of a war fought to preserve the enslavement of an entire race of people. Historians want to preserve an accurate retelling of history as it was, not as people wish to remember it. Bring down all the statues. The historians will write down why there were put up and why they were taken down. We will never forget them.
Then I really wish you would apply those lessons. You keep dancing back and forth on stupid Americans that are cursed to whitewash racism, but it’s all great if you bury the past in libraries where it has to be sought out. You show a great disrespect for history and its memorialization in the public square. You protest against it, for sure, but I’m starting to realize you’ll never recognize this aspect of your character.
|
On January 17 2018 08:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:54 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 07:32 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done?
Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. I mean there are statues of MLK but if they get torn down and defaced that would be okay because they don't preserve history and shouldn't be protected. Clearly. Spray paint over Rosa Parks? Nothing to see here, just a bunch of kids, why was this up in the first place? Everybody knows there’s public libraries where we inter history! That’s the enlightened view! I hear MLK cheated on his wife, so clearly any statues of him or boulevards named after him or holidays honoring him are problematic on women’s rights. This is pretty ironic, because most people who talk about MLK bemoan how sanitized his history has become in service of making him palpable to whites uncomfortable with the realities of the civil rights movement. Most people I know would love it if MLK was celebrated for more than a couple lines in “I have a dream.”
You would hamstring all attempts to even know the quick basics if all public monuments to him are subject to removal. You bemoan the ignorance, but advocate for a double helping of it. It’s sad.
|
There are no (or very few) statues of American historical figures in Australia, but I still have a working knowledge of American history.
Your move, Danglars.
|
On January 17 2018 08:13 Aquanim wrote:
There are no (or very few) statues of American historical figures in Australia, but I still have a working knowledge of American history.
Your move, Danglars.
Even better, your knowledge of US history no doubt trumps that of many in states with large numbers of Confederate statues.
|
On January 17 2018 08:07 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:57 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 07:50 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done?
Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. Ask for your money back. You should have learned that public displays help the national consciousness. That includes celebrating great men that weren’t saints through-and-through, and also points of national embarrassment that we should learn from in other ways. Maybe you learned but now choose to forget or not apply lessons from history in complicated figures that should lead to investigation and examination. If you think some conflicted figure gets a bad rap, go argue for an accompanying plaque instead of calling shit racist and moving on. I did learn all of that and it’s all written down in books. It is where they wrote down the last two verses to the national anthem. Not in the national consciousness, which would rather forget the history of slavery and oppression in our nation. Not in the statues erected by people wishing to rewrite the history of a war fought to preserve the enslavement of an entire race of people. Historians want to preserve an accurate retelling of history as it was, not as people wish to remember it. Bring down all the statues. The historians will write down why there were put up and why they were taken down. We will never forget them. Then I really wish you would apply those lessons. You keep dancing back and forth on stupid Americans that are cursed to whitewash racism, but it’s all great if you bury the past in libraries where it has to be sought out. You show a great disrespect for history and its memorialization in the public square. You protest against it, for sure, but I’m starting to realize you’ll never recognize this aspect of your character.
I have no problem with memorializing history. I just don't fear the memorial being taken down or changed. Statues are great if put up for the right reasons. But we are not slaves to them once they are put up. We are not required to endure the flawed monuments of a previous generation that wished to return to the days of slavery and oppression. The preservation and accuracy of history does not require that.
But if getting rid of those statues causes people to read more history books, bring me the hammer.
On January 17 2018 08:09 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 08:01 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 07:54 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 07:32 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed.
GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. I mean there are statues of MLK but if they get torn down and defaced that would be okay because they don't preserve history and shouldn't be protected. Clearly. Spray paint over Rosa Parks? Nothing to see here, just a bunch of kids, why was this up in the first place? Everybody knows there’s public libraries where we inter history! That’s the enlightened view! I hear MLK cheated on his wife, so clearly any statues of him or boulevards named after him or holidays honoring him are problematic on women’s rights. This is pretty ironic, because most people who talk about MLK bemoan how sanitized his history has become in service of making him palpable to whites uncomfortable with the realities of the civil rights movement. Most people I know would love it if MLK was celebrated for more than a couple lines in “I have a dream.” You would hamstring all attempts to even know the quick basics if all public monuments to him are subject to removal. You bemoan the ignorance, but advocate for a double helping of it. It’s sad.
I taught history. It is the teacher standing next to the statue explaining the history to the kids, not the statue. All of the classes I taught did not require a statue to teach the basics. To be honest, preserving a historical figure's home is a better teaching tool than a statue. There are sections of the countries with no statues and they managed to learn US history. We will be fine.
|
I'd like to remind everyone that despite Danglars insisting on it, i don't think anyone here is actually for tearing down statues of your national anthem or smearing them with paint or anything else along those lines.
This whole discussion, similar to the one about shrouding the statue a while back, feels a bit surreal because it seems like Danglars is talking to other people. Not the people actually talking to him here in the forum.
I have no idea why this discussion has turned into "statues preserve history". That is at best tangentially related.
Why is the action of a single person who had a can of spraypaint and nothing to do so incredibly relevant? No one here is in favor of allowing random people to break down and deface whatever art they like. Which seems to be what Danglars believes people are talking about.
There is a tangential question of whether that statue should be there or not. But that is a different question which is being conflated with the initial report.
So here a quick summary of a position which i think most "leftists" here will agree upon.
1) That statue event isn't really important.
2) People should not be legally allowed to damage statues they don't like.
3) Sometimes people still do stuff that they are not allowed to. That is what a working law system is for. Use that law system to deal with those people.
4) A reasonable result is fining people and making them pay for fixing the thing.
All of the above applies similarly to basically any statues in public.
Now, a related topic is which statues should and should not be standing in places, and how one should act regarding stuff that one things should not be in place. This is where you will find diverging opinions between you and leftists, and within the leftist group too.
|
On January 17 2018 08:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 08:07 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 07:57 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 07:50 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed.
GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. Ask for your money back. You should have learned that public displays help the national consciousness. That includes celebrating great men that weren’t saints through-and-through, and also points of national embarrassment that we should learn from in other ways. Maybe you learned but now choose to forget or not apply lessons from history in complicated figures that should lead to investigation and examination. If you think some conflicted figure gets a bad rap, go argue for an accompanying plaque instead of calling shit racist and moving on. I did learn all of that and it’s all written down in books. It is where they wrote down the last two verses to the national anthem. Not in the national consciousness, which would rather forget the history of slavery and oppression in our nation. Not in the statues erected by people wishing to rewrite the history of a war fought to preserve the enslavement of an entire race of people. Historians want to preserve an accurate retelling of history as it was, not as people wish to remember it. Bring down all the statues. The historians will write down why there were put up and why they were taken down. We will never forget them. Then I really wish you would apply those lessons. You keep dancing back and forth on stupid Americans that are cursed to whitewash racism, but it’s all great if you bury the past in libraries where it has to be sought out. You show a great disrespect for history and its memorialization in the public square. You protest against it, for sure, but I’m starting to realize you’ll never recognize this aspect of your character. I have no problem with memorializing history. I just don't fear the memorial being taken down or changed. Statues are great if put up for the right reasons. But we are not slaves to them once they are put up. We are not required to endure the flawed monuments of a previous generation that wished to return to the days of slavery and oppression. The preservation and accuracy of history does not require that. But if getting rid of those statues causes people to read more history books, bring me the hammer. Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 08:09 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 08:01 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 07:54 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 07:32 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:
[quote]
Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays
Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah.
Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. I mean there are statues of MLK but if they get torn down and defaced that would be okay because they don't preserve history and shouldn't be protected. Clearly. Spray paint over Rosa Parks? Nothing to see here, just a bunch of kids, why was this up in the first place? Everybody knows there’s public libraries where we inter history! That’s the enlightened view! I hear MLK cheated on his wife, so clearly any statues of him or boulevards named after him or holidays honoring him are problematic on women’s rights. This is pretty ironic, because most people who talk about MLK bemoan how sanitized his history has become in service of making him palpable to whites uncomfortable with the realities of the civil rights movement. Most people I know would love it if MLK was celebrated for more than a couple lines in “I have a dream.” You would hamstring all attempts to even know the quick basics if all public monuments to him are subject to removal. You bemoan the ignorance, but advocate for a double helping of it. It’s sad. I taught history. It is the teacher standing next to the statue explaining the history to the kids, not the statue. All of the classes I taught did not require a statue to teach the basics. To be honest, preserving a historical figure's home is a better teaching tool than a statue. There are sections of the countries with no statues and they managed to learn US history. We will be fine.
The movement is defacement and removal. I don’t care if you think you don’t have a problem with memorializing history, I have a problem with you actually seeing fit to remove them (not stand in the way of removing them). They ought to be preserved for what they are and reflected upon by young and old. Then when and if you’re inspired, go to the library or search online for the full story. Like my previous comparison, you don’t have to be Mao’s goons effacing the cultural past, to just stand by as its done anyways, content in your own innocence.
I’m also in favor of teachers taking children to historical places about time including statues, graves, and historical buildings. You’re more at home with a teacher telling students where the statue used to stand, and the intricacies of the artistry from the past, than to actually stand next to the statue. Covered in spray paint. Unable to exist in history because of the puritanical present.
|
On January 17 2018 08:05 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:55 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 07:50 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done?
Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. Ask for your money back. You should have learned that public displays help the national consciousness. That includes celebrating great men that weren’t saints through-and-through, and also points of national embarrassment that we should learn from in other ways. Maybe you learned but now choose to forget or not apply lessons from history in complicated figures that should lead to investigation and examination. If you think some conflicted figure gets a bad rap, go argue for an accompanying plaque instead of calling shit racist and moving on. You have still not said why any of this is positive. What do we gain by celebrating these men? I’m gonna sounds trite here, but those who don’t remember the past are doomed to repeat it. Considering today’s public school system, national monuments are a very good thing. Now, am I correct in assuming “public consciousness” is not a good for you. IE public ignorance of its history isn’t so bad? I pity your history programs. I really do. Mohdoo vs the Statue of Liberty I suppose. You’ve given me a great many reasons to believe you wouldn’t oppose the destruction or vandalizing of that one too.
You've still yet to make an effective argument. What history are you saying people are being prevented from repeating from this statue existing?
Overall, your entire argument is an appeal to tradition. You haven't actually laid out any advantages of these statues or showed why they prevent mistakes being made again. You are falsely equating the existence of written history with the erecting of statues.
|
On January 17 2018 08:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 08:13 Aquanim wrote:
There are no (or very few) statues of American historical figures in Australia, but I still have a working knowledge of American history.
Your move, Danglars. Even better, your knowledge of US history no doubt trumps that of many in states with large numbers of Confederate statues.
That ripping down is supposed to fix  from the last time this topic came up. Racists were worshipping too hard, or something, so we can’t have these things anymore.
|
I asked why that tweet was worthy of discussion in the thread. The only good thing that came about from it was Danglars learning that there are two more verses to the anthem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
