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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
If David Duke wrote a children's story people would decry its existence and racism it stands for even if the story itself is innocent. You can't separate the author and there works.
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On January 17 2018 05:30 Grumbels wrote:
@Danglars
1. I know this is very petty, but can you stop misspelling my name?
2. I'm not invested in the terminology of conservative or right-wingers or whatever. If you absolutely insist that hordes of people who vote for the GOP calling for Manning's death are all irrelevant because these people are not TrueConservatives, then I'm perfectly willing to concede the point and simply change it to many prominent rightwingers vocally supporting her torture, lamenting that she wasn't executed, misgendering her and calling her a mentally ill freak.
And everyone knows this, everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views. I don't even get why you are trying to push back against this incredibly obvious observation that Manning is completely despised by conservatives, right-wingers or whatever they call themselves these days.
Also, we all use different terminology on the internet, the same people are arbitrarily called conservatives, right-wingers, reactionaries, libertarians, evangelicals and while you can sometimes distinguish between them I find it disingenuous to pretend like there is some hard line that divides all these groups. These are not mutually exclusive categories of people, the language used is very fluid. And in the interest of communication I find it very tiresome if every statement I make is parsed for some technical inaccuracy because I called a libertarian a conservative.
1. Where?
2. If you’re willing to identify Republicans when you mean Republicans and conservatives when you mean conservatives, maybe we’ll have reason to talk. Conservatives didn’t call for Manning to be killed for his actions. If you meant to say “some voices on the right” (and your various protestations mean, despite what you hope to persuade others of, you actually meant to say and defend it as such), then admit it and move on. I can quote Salon and say “liberals called for white men to shut up” and that doesn’t make it true no matter how much whining I do about how many labels exist out there. So mean what you say if you want to defend yourself with sources (your first attempt) or don’t attempt to defend it at all if you find the terms long and confusing (your second attempt).
I should add “everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views“ gave me a good, long laugh. Ok let’s argue the point. Ok the point doesn’t matter because everybody knows you’re all extremist reactionary haters!!!!!! Laying on your hyperpartisanship a little thick there. You “lying commie SJW” haha.
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On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 04:31 Danglars wrote:
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling.
You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist?
As to the song:
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters.
You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people?
I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context).
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On January 17 2018 05:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:30 Grumbels wrote:
@Danglars
1. I know this is very petty, but can you stop misspelling my name?
2. I'm not invested in the terminology of conservative or right-wingers or whatever. If you absolutely insist that hordes of people who vote for the GOP calling for Manning's death are all irrelevant because these people are not TrueConservatives, then I'm perfectly willing to concede the point and simply change it to many prominent rightwingers vocally supporting her torture, lamenting that she wasn't executed, misgendering her and calling her a mentally ill freak.
And everyone knows this, everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views. I don't even get why you are trying to push back against this incredibly obvious observation that Manning is completely despised by conservatives, right-wingers or whatever they call themselves these days.
Also, we all use different terminology on the internet, the same people are arbitrarily called conservatives, right-wingers, reactionaries, libertarians, evangelicals and while you can sometimes distinguish between them I find it disingenuous to pretend like there is some hard line that divides all these groups. These are not mutually exclusive categories of people, the language used is very fluid. And in the interest of communication I find it very tiresome if every statement I make is parsed for some technical inaccuracy because I called a libertarian a conservative. 1. Where? 2. If you’re willing to identify Republicans when you mean Republicans and conservatives when you mean conservatives, maybe we’ll have reason to talk. Conservatives didn’t call for Manning to be killed for his actions. If you meant to say “some voices on the right” (and your various protestations mean, despite what you hope to persuade others of, you actually meant to say and defend it as such), then admit it and move on. I can quote Salon and say “liberals called for white men to shut up” and that doesn’t make it true no matter how much whining I do about how many labels exist out there. So mean what you say if you want to defend yourself with sources (your first attempt) or don’t attempt to defend it at all if you find the terms long and confusing (your second attempt). I should add “everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views“ gave me a good, long laugh. Ok let’s argue the point. Ok the point doesn’t matter because everybody knows you’re all extremist reactionary haters!!!!!! Laying on your hyperpartisanship a little thick there. You “lying commie SJW” haha.
Those people he identified would probably identify themselves as conservative. It seems you are arguing from whatever definition of conservative you want to use which appears to be “people with reasonable views.” In any case you are also busy criticizing people on the left for criticizing Trump over the Hawaii issue, and for saying the statue issue is not a big deal. It appears you are trying to associate these viewpoints with a group of people. That you are being slightly more precise than Grumbels in your identification of the group doesn’t make what you’re doing a whole lot better.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 17 2018 05:41 Adreme wrote:
If David Duke wrote a children's story people would decry its existence and racism it stands for even if the story itself is innocent. You can't separate the author and there works.
Rudyard Kipling?
Although in context of his other works, his children's stories do have a pretty interesting subtext...
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On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: Show nested quote +And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context).
The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch.
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On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: Show nested quote +And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context).
Historians are divided on that topic. Others say it refers to the triumph over British mercenaries and their practice of impressment. You do know scholars are divided, right?
Francis Scott key himself thought blacks were inferior. That part isn’t contested. And many black people recognize the whole song as a patriotic song in support of the country (over the British), not the country’s practice of slavery at the time. It’s only a segment of blacks that think the anthem itself is racist to the core.
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On January 17 2018 06:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch.
Slavery was happening during the whole song. The "freedom" being sung about didn't apply to black people. The guy who wrote it didn't envision/desire free black Americans ever being a thing.
On January 17 2018 06:11 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). Historians are divided on that topic. Others say it refers to the triumph over British mercenaries and their practice of impressment. You do know scholars are divided, right? Francis Scott key himself thought blacks were inferior. That part isn’t contested. And many black people recognize the whole song as a patriotic song in support of the country (over the British), not the country’s practice of slavery at the time. It’s only a segment of blacks that think the anthem itself is racist to the core.
Yes. Why then did you keep asking if people thought he was racist (and chose not to call him racist there)?
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On January 17 2018 05:54 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:41 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:30 Grumbels wrote:
@Danglars
1. I know this is very petty, but can you stop misspelling my name?
2. I'm not invested in the terminology of conservative or right-wingers or whatever. If you absolutely insist that hordes of people who vote for the GOP calling for Manning's death are all irrelevant because these people are not TrueConservatives, then I'm perfectly willing to concede the point and simply change it to many prominent rightwingers vocally supporting her torture, lamenting that she wasn't executed, misgendering her and calling her a mentally ill freak.
And everyone knows this, everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views. I don't even get why you are trying to push back against this incredibly obvious observation that Manning is completely despised by conservatives, right-wingers or whatever they call themselves these days.
Also, we all use different terminology on the internet, the same people are arbitrarily called conservatives, right-wingers, reactionaries, libertarians, evangelicals and while you can sometimes distinguish between them I find it disingenuous to pretend like there is some hard line that divides all these groups. These are not mutually exclusive categories of people, the language used is very fluid. And in the interest of communication I find it very tiresome if every statement I make is parsed for some technical inaccuracy because I called a libertarian a conservative. 1. Where? 2. If you’re willing to identify Republicans when you mean Republicans and conservatives when you mean conservatives, maybe we’ll have reason to talk. Conservatives didn’t call for Manning to be killed for his actions. If you meant to say “some voices on the right” (and your various protestations mean, despite what you hope to persuade others of, you actually meant to say and defend it as such), then admit it and move on. I can quote Salon and say “liberals called for white men to shut up” and that doesn’t make it true no matter how much whining I do about how many labels exist out there. So mean what you say if you want to defend yourself with sources (your first attempt) or don’t attempt to defend it at all if you find the terms long and confusing (your second attempt). I should add “everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views“ gave me a good, long laugh. Ok let’s argue the point. Ok the point doesn’t matter because everybody knows you’re all extremist reactionary haters!!!!!! Laying on your hyperpartisanship a little thick there. You “lying commie SJW” haha. Those people he identified would probably identify themselves as conservative. It seems you are arguing from whatever definition of conservative you want to use which appears to be “people with reasonable views.” In any case you are also busy criticizing people on the left for criticizing Trump over the Hawaii issue, and for saying the statue issue is not a big deal. It appears you are trying to associate these viewpoints with a group of people. That you are being slightly more precise than Grumbels in your identification of the group doesn’t make what you’re doing a whole lot better.
Yeah and liberals would probably get mad if I said liberals supported Bernie Sanders based on a blog and a small-audience radio man. Self identity doesn’t mean “I speak on behalf of this group,” particularly if hardly anybody listens to them.
Otherwise, you literally want to say self-identity automatically means you are a legitimate spokesman on behalf of the group. So about your support for assassination of the president and how whites and blacks cant be friends...
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On January 17 2018 06:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Taken literally this is saying slaves could not escape the terror of fleeing or death and it's great that the US triumphed over them in the name of freedom. (It's of note that there were slaves who fought for the British in the war of 1812). It's celebrating in the way they were able to hunt down and kill freed slaves (or slaves on the wrong side of the war). If it's not pro-slavery, it's at least celebrating the death of slaves.
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On January 17 2018 06:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch.
If the German national anthem came from Mein Kampf but it was not one of the bad parts would we still be okay with that? I ask not to cite an equivalence but to establish whether your argument is sound in principle because if not we are haggling over how controversial it is allowed to be
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On January 17 2018 06:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch.
Insufficiently revolutionary to societal norms means preservation of societal norms. You have to get all today’s mores right from the start of the whole thing is racist trash. I love the standards right now, by the way. And the uniform lack of a liberal contrasting opinion in this forum. Can’t be bothered I guess (until people see them as unpatriotic).
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On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling.
Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays
Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah.
Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish
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On January 17 2018 06:17 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch. Insufficiently revolutionary to societal norms means preservation of societal norms. You have to get all today’s mores right from the start of the whole thing is racist trash. I love the standards right now, by the way. And the uniform lack of a liberal contrasting opinion in this forum. Can’t be bothered I guess (until people see them as unpatriotic).
The song is racist, whether it is trash is a different issue that has just been first presented here by yourself, to be clear.
EDIT: What you seem to want to argue is that it being racist doesn't make it trash. I agree that it's a valuable piece of American history, but so is the context that it wasn't ever intended for black people and celebrated killing the ones that chose freedom over their masters.
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I would call for the anthem to be changed purely because its an awful anthem not because of the writers racists opinions. Its always so obvious when our anthem is played next to other anthems just how inferior it is which is weird because we have a perfect song that could be our anthem and it right in but instead we go with the awful anthem we have now.
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On January 17 2018 06:23 Adreme wrote:
I would call for the anthem to be changed purely because its an awful anthem not because of the writers racists opinions. Its always so obvious when our anthem is played next to other anthems just how inferior it is which is weird because we have a perfect song that could be our anthem and it right in but instead we go with the awful anthem we have now.
Yeah when it’s played, it’s played as the first verse. But “awful anthem” noted.
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On January 17 2018 06:23 Adreme wrote:
I would call for the anthem to be changed purely because its an awful anthem not because of the writers racists opinions. Its always so obvious when our anthem is played next to other anthems just how inferior it is which is weird because we have a perfect song that could be our anthem and it right in but instead we go with the awful anthem we have now.
+1. It's a bad song that ends in a question lol
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On January 17 2018 06:23 Adreme wrote:
I would call for the anthem to be changed purely because its an awful anthem not because of the writers racists opinions. Its always so obvious when our anthem is played next to other anthems just how inferior it is which is weird because we have a perfect song that could be our anthem and it right in but instead we go with the awful anthem we have now.
I always thought it was pretty terrible for a nation to have a war song as it's anthem. Even if it's also very much about freedom and resilience it still seems... wrong.
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On January 17 2018 06:26 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:23 Adreme wrote:
I would call for the anthem to be changed purely because its an awful anthem not because of the writers racists opinions. Its always so obvious when our anthem is played next to other anthems just how inferior it is which is weird because we have a perfect song that could be our anthem and it right in but instead we go with the awful anthem we have now. Yeah when it’s played, it’s played as the first verse. But “awful anthem” noted.
Just to be clear I mean from a musical perspective. Give me a song like America The Beautiful over it any day. It just speaks so much more to the greatness of our country while at the same time being far better musically. Star-Spangled Banner is very clearly a poem that is attempted to be fit to a song whereas America The Beautiful just flows as a song.
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EPT
