|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 17 2018 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:17 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 04:31 Danglars wrote:
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch. Insufficiently revolutionary to societal norms means preservation of societal norms. You have to get all today’s mores right from the start of the whole thing is racist trash. I love the standards right now, by the way. And the uniform lack of a liberal contrasting opinion in this forum. Can’t be bothered I guess (until people see them as unpatriotic). The song is racist, whether it is trash is a different issue that has just been first presented here by yourself, to be clear. EDIT: What you seem to want to argue is that it being racist doesn't make it trash. I agree that it's a valuable piece of American history, but so is the context that it wasn't ever intended for black people and celebrated killing the ones that chose freedom over their masters.
Well people did vandalize the statue. There’s one perspective. It wasn’t an awareness march to a stanza of a third verse with possibly problematic interpretations.
The anthem is widely regarded as a patriotic song. Digging into unsung verses and taking one side of a disputed couple of lines to try and call the thing racist is stupid. The people asking others to do that are stupid.
|
On January 17 2018 06:32 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 06:17 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch. Insufficiently revolutionary to societal norms means preservation of societal norms. You have to get all today’s mores right from the start of the whole thing is racist trash. I love the standards right now, by the way. And the uniform lack of a liberal contrasting opinion in this forum. Can’t be bothered I guess (until people see them as unpatriotic). The song is racist, whether it is trash is a different issue that has just been first presented here by yourself, to be clear. EDIT: What you seem to want to argue is that it being racist doesn't make it trash. I agree that it's a valuable piece of American history, but so is the context that it wasn't ever intended for black people and celebrated killing the ones that chose freedom over their masters. Well people did vandalize the statue. There’s one perspective. It wasn’t an awareness march to a stanza of a third verse with possibly problematic interpretations. The anthem is widely regarded as a patriotic song. Digging into unsung verses and taking one side of a disputed couple of lines to try and call the thing racist is stupid. The people asking others to do that are stupid.
The reason that tweet was stupid (figure I should get back on topic) is twofold. First off as someone who lives near Baltimore City, I can tell you there are large groups of people protesting all of the things he is listing but not only is he ignoring that he is casting an equivalency between a couple people vandalizing a monument and a large group of people protesting an important issue. The guy is nothing more than an opportunistic hack looking only to tell his followers what they want to hear and keep them safe in there precious bubble.
|
On January 17 2018 06:15 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:54 Doodsmack wrote:On January 17 2018 05:41 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:30 Grumbels wrote:
@Danglars
1. I know this is very petty, but can you stop misspelling my name?
2. I'm not invested in the terminology of conservative or right-wingers or whatever. If you absolutely insist that hordes of people who vote for the GOP calling for Manning's death are all irrelevant because these people are not TrueConservatives, then I'm perfectly willing to concede the point and simply change it to many prominent rightwingers vocally supporting her torture, lamenting that she wasn't executed, misgendering her and calling her a mentally ill freak.
And everyone knows this, everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views. I don't even get why you are trying to push back against this incredibly obvious observation that Manning is completely despised by conservatives, right-wingers or whatever they call themselves these days.
Also, we all use different terminology on the internet, the same people are arbitrarily called conservatives, right-wingers, reactionaries, libertarians, evangelicals and while you can sometimes distinguish between them I find it disingenuous to pretend like there is some hard line that divides all these groups. These are not mutually exclusive categories of people, the language used is very fluid. And in the interest of communication I find it very tiresome if every statement I make is parsed for some technical inaccuracy because I called a libertarian a conservative. 1. Where? 2. If you’re willing to identify Republicans when you mean Republicans and conservatives when you mean conservatives, maybe we’ll have reason to talk. Conservatives didn’t call for Manning to be killed for his actions. If you meant to say “some voices on the right” (and your various protestations mean, despite what you hope to persuade others of, you actually meant to say and defend it as such), then admit it and move on. I can quote Salon and say “liberals called for white men to shut up” and that doesn’t make it true no matter how much whining I do about how many labels exist out there. So mean what you say if you want to defend yourself with sources (your first attempt) or don’t attempt to defend it at all if you find the terms long and confusing (your second attempt). I should add “everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views“ gave me a good, long laugh. Ok let’s argue the point. Ok the point doesn’t matter because everybody knows you’re all extremist reactionary haters!!!!!! Laying on your hyperpartisanship a little thick there. You “lying commie SJW” haha. Those people he identified would probably identify themselves as conservative. It seems you are arguing from whatever definition of conservative you want to use which appears to be “people with reasonable views.” In any case you are also busy criticizing people on the left for criticizing Trump over the Hawaii issue, and for saying the statue issue is not a big deal. It appears you are trying to associate these viewpoints with a group of people. That you are being slightly more precise than Grumbels in your identification of the group doesn’t make what you’re doing a whole lot better. Yeah and liberals would probably get mad if I said liberals supported Bernie Sanders based on a blog and a small-audience radio man. Self identity doesn’t mean “I speak on behalf of this group,” particularly if hardly anybody listens to them. Otherwise, you literally want to say self-identity automatically means you are a legitimate spokesman on behalf of the group. So about your support for assassination of the president and how whites and blacks cant be friends...
But surely you'll recognize, then, that group identification is complicated. If someone self-identifies as a member of a group, and is prominently supported by most members of that group, it doesn't technically prove they're a member of that group – but it starts to feel purely semantic if you put too much stock in the distinction. In Trump's case, I think there is an underlying philosophical integrity to the right's values that Trump does not exemplify, a bit like when Plansix talks about his Republican grandpa to complain about how modern Republicans have lost their intellectual integrity. But in general, conservatives support Trump. In general, Trump supports the policies that conservatives support. If you were to poll the entire country on whether Trump is a conservative, I don't think it'd be a resounding "no." If you polled only self-identified conservatives, I bet it would lean "yes."
|
On January 17 2018 06:32 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 06:17 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch. Insufficiently revolutionary to societal norms means preservation of societal norms. You have to get all today’s mores right from the start of the whole thing is racist trash. I love the standards right now, by the way. And the uniform lack of a liberal contrasting opinion in this forum. Can’t be bothered I guess (until people see them as unpatriotic). The song is racist, whether it is trash is a different issue that has just been first presented here by yourself, to be clear. EDIT: What you seem to want to argue is that it being racist doesn't make it trash. I agree that it's a valuable piece of American history, but so is the context that it wasn't ever intended for black people and celebrated killing the ones that chose freedom over their masters. Well people did vandalize the statue. There’s one perspective. It wasn’t an awareness march to a stanza of a third verse with possibly problematic interpretations. The anthem is widely regarded as a patriotic song. Digging into unsung verses and taking one side of a disputed couple of lines to try and call the thing racist is stupid. The people asking others to do that are stupid.
Eh, if I show only the good parts of things and then go just ignore the bad parts because nobody talks about those.... it doesn't really take the bad parts away
It reminds me right away about the woman in Baltamor(sp?) (I forget who was killed there) saying not to riot in their streets and called for peace in the community, but then the next line said go do it in the white neighborhoods and fuck up their shit. If you cut out the racist part the thing sounds great
|
On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish
Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals.
|
On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals.
Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost?
|
The discussion around the anthem is slowly changing my mind on thinking the vandalism was a bad move.
|
On January 17 2018 06:32 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 06:17 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. You really think there's room to debate whether thinking black people are inferior to white people is racist? As to the song: And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The part that laments slaves siding with their freedom over allegiance to their masters. You know this has been a complaint for a long time too right? Like all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding the US lauding itself for it's awesome freedomness has ALWAYS (as in every generation) been seen as racist by black people? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but expressly depriving them of that freedom is pretty much the core reason. Considering the behavior you deem reasonable for conservatives/republicans (voting Trump and beyond) for feeling like they are getting left out, you should be amazed at the restraint and patience black people have shown this country and political system. You should also be completely sympathetic with them legitimately voting for someone far outside of mainstream acceptability (Obama is practically Jeb! in this context). The lyrics that no-one sings don't really read pro-slavery... This seems like an odd stretch. Insufficiently revolutionary to societal norms means preservation of societal norms. You have to get all today’s mores right from the start of the whole thing is racist trash. I love the standards right now, by the way. And the uniform lack of a liberal contrasting opinion in this forum. Can’t be bothered I guess (until people see them as unpatriotic). The song is racist, whether it is trash is a different issue that has just been first presented here by yourself, to be clear. EDIT: What you seem to want to argue is that it being racist doesn't make it trash. I agree that it's a valuable piece of American history, but so is the context that it wasn't ever intended for black people and celebrated killing the ones that chose freedom over their masters. Well people did vandalize the statue. There’s one perspective. It wasn’t an awareness march to a stanza of a third verse with possibly problematic interpretations. The anthem is widely regarded as a patriotic song. Digging into unsung verses and taking one side of a disputed couple of lines to try and call the thing racist is stupid. The people asking others to do that are stupid.
Adreme summarizes what was wrong with your original tweet (without comment) pretty well.
I think it's far more telling about the people who had nothing to say about the schools but think graffiti on a statue is worth noting.
You keep saying the anthem is widely regarded as a patriotic song, but that doesn't invalidate that black people for generations listened with confusion and dismay as these freedoms they didn't have, were lauded.
Not just when it was written, or when it was made the anthem, but right through 60's into today. What you're noticing is that the people that feel that way have bigger platforms since white people can't just force them to shut up, despite their best efforts including the president calling for them to be fired and you cheering him on in your culture war.
|
On January 17 2018 06:35 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:15 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:54 Doodsmack wrote:On January 17 2018 05:41 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:30 Grumbels wrote:
@Danglars
1. I know this is very petty, but can you stop misspelling my name?
2. I'm not invested in the terminology of conservative or right-wingers or whatever. If you absolutely insist that hordes of people who vote for the GOP calling for Manning's death are all irrelevant because these people are not TrueConservatives, then I'm perfectly willing to concede the point and simply change it to many prominent rightwingers vocally supporting her torture, lamenting that she wasn't executed, misgendering her and calling her a mentally ill freak.
And everyone knows this, everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views. I don't even get why you are trying to push back against this incredibly obvious observation that Manning is completely despised by conservatives, right-wingers or whatever they call themselves these days.
Also, we all use different terminology on the internet, the same people are arbitrarily called conservatives, right-wingers, reactionaries, libertarians, evangelicals and while you can sometimes distinguish between them I find it disingenuous to pretend like there is some hard line that divides all these groups. These are not mutually exclusive categories of people, the language used is very fluid. And in the interest of communication I find it very tiresome if every statement I make is parsed for some technical inaccuracy because I called a libertarian a conservative. 1. Where? 2. If you’re willing to identify Republicans when you mean Republicans and conservatives when you mean conservatives, maybe we’ll have reason to talk. Conservatives didn’t call for Manning to be killed for his actions. If you meant to say “some voices on the right” (and your various protestations mean, despite what you hope to persuade others of, you actually meant to say and defend it as such), then admit it and move on. I can quote Salon and say “liberals called for white men to shut up” and that doesn’t make it true no matter how much whining I do about how many labels exist out there. So mean what you say if you want to defend yourself with sources (your first attempt) or don’t attempt to defend it at all if you find the terms long and confusing (your second attempt). I should add “everyone knows the GOP and their base are extremists with hateful, reactionary views“ gave me a good, long laugh. Ok let’s argue the point. Ok the point doesn’t matter because everybody knows you’re all extremist reactionary haters!!!!!! Laying on your hyperpartisanship a little thick there. You “lying commie SJW” haha. Those people he identified would probably identify themselves as conservative. It seems you are arguing from whatever definition of conservative you want to use which appears to be “people with reasonable views.” In any case you are also busy criticizing people on the left for criticizing Trump over the Hawaii issue, and for saying the statue issue is not a big deal. It appears you are trying to associate these viewpoints with a group of people. That you are being slightly more precise than Grumbels in your identification of the group doesn’t make what you’re doing a whole lot better. Yeah and liberals would probably get mad if I said liberals supported Bernie Sanders based on a blog and a small-audience radio man. Self identity doesn’t mean “I speak on behalf of this group,” particularly if hardly anybody listens to them. Otherwise, you literally want to say self-identity automatically means you are a legitimate spokesman on behalf of the group. So about your support for assassination of the president and how whites and blacks cant be friends... But surely you'll recognize, then, that group identification is complicated. If someone self-identifies as a member of a group, and is prominently supported by most members of that group, it doesn't technically prove they're a member of that group – but it starts to feel purely semantic if you put too much stock in the distinction. In Trump's case, I think there is an underlying philosophical integrity to the right's values that Trump does not exemplify, a bit like when Plansix talks about his Republican grandpa to complain about how modern Republicans have lost their intellectual integrity. But in general, conservatives support Trump. In general, Trump supports the policies that conservatives support. If you were to poll the entire country on whether Trump is a conservative, I don't think it'd be a resounding "no." If you polled only self-identified conservatives, I bet it would lean "yes."
I mean if you talk broadly about identifying and using the terms, yes. If you talk specifically in this instance, no, you and Grumbels are wrong to apply it and wrongheaded to seek to defend it. The statement is false and only people that like playing fast and loose with facts (or decidedly ignorant) would try to say it (see: they’re all extremist reactionary haters). I repeatedly marked relevant counter opinions on the left that would land the speaker in hot water and was met with silence. Therefore, it’s a one-way street and ought to be recognized as such and eventually repaired in your discourse. If you don’t know what outlets shape opinion and hold sway, you should ask around before generalizing using terms with a degree of preciseness (cf. the Right or right of center or Republicans, or the qualifiers some such as “some Democrats supported Bernie”)
|
On January 17 2018 06:42 Plansix wrote:
The discussion around the anthem is slowly changing my mind on thinking the vandalism was a bad move.
Tear down the reminders of our past based on the standards of the present, and I right? Mao would be proud.
First, express concern. Second, argue with contrary perspectives. Third, start supporting the defacement because these other opinions are just so bad.
|
On January 17 2018 06:50 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:42 Plansix wrote:
The discussion around the anthem is slowly changing my mind on thinking the vandalism was a bad move. Tear down the reminders of our past based on the standards of the present, and I right? Mao would be proud. First, express concern. Second, argue with contrary perspectives. Third, start supporting the defacement because these other opinions are just so bad.
That statue looked in pretty good shape for being torn down.
|
Since this is actually a thing discussed. This is part of a thread, hope that shows.
|
On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost?
Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision.
|
On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision.
Is anyone overtly calling for this particular statue to be removed? Implicitly you'd think the vandals are but it doesn't seem like there's much of an actual call in any more overt way.
Also interesting
The city spent $125,000 to restore the Key monument in 1999, after the monument went neglected for years, with cracked concrete and a broken fountain, according to an article in The Baltimore Sun at the time.
Which sort of begs a question, if they didn't restore this statue would people have the same outrage about letting it fall to pieces?
Idk, my thought tends more towards, "maybe people should have listened when people were speaking out in less destructive ways?" Instead a football player was blacklisted without causing harm and now a bunch of statues are getting defaced. So idk, seems like we lost out on that one.
|
On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision.
Is it that you think these statues are actually having a big impact on the decision making and whatnot? They feel much more symbolic than effective.
|
On January 17 2018 07:03 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. Is anyone overtly calling for this particular statue to be removed? Implicitly you'd think the vandals are but it doesn't seem like there's much of an actual call in any more overt way. Also interesting Show nested quote +The city spent $125,000 to restore the Key monument in 1999, after the monument went neglected for years, with cracked concrete and a broken fountain, according to an article in The Baltimore Sun at the time. Which sort of begs a question, if they didn't restore this statue would people have the same outrage about letting it fall to pieces? Idk, my thought tends more towards, "maybe people should have listened when people were speaking out in less destructive ways?" Instead a football player was blacklisted without causing harm and now a bunch of statues are getting defaced. So idk, seems like we lost out on that one.
The vandalism harkens to the larger movement to remove statues from the founding and from the civil war era. Its a racist thing, it shouldn’t be celebrated, we’re gonna ruin it with spray paint, etc etc.
Statue restoration involves issues like the locaity’s budget and cost of restoration and if there’s a fine one just down the street. If they’re not dropping a dime to maintain it, I do expect locals to be angry about it. I know around my parts there’s historical monuments that I watch my city council members positions on their maintenance.
|
On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision.
As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy.
But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free.
|
On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too? You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue. That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point. I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free.
I mean there are statues of MLK but if they get torn down and defaced that would be okay because they don't preserve history and shouldn't be protected.
|
On January 17 2018 07:32 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too?
You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue.
That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point.
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. I mean there are statues of MLK but if they get torn down and defaced that would be okay because they don't preserve history and shouldn't be protected.
Why did people put up those statues? Because that is the only thing that really matters, the intent behind the people who created the monument. If someone made the argument that a statue of MLK was put up to gloss over a city’s racist past and people want to remove it, I would have no problem.
Now if someone wants to burn all of the writings of MLK and General Lee to remove our racist past from libraries, call me. I’ll be there for the riot.
|
On January 17 2018 07:32 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:29 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2018 06:59 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2018 06:36 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 05:32 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Simberto wrote:On January 17 2018 05:00 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
lol, because obviously there are no protests for those things too?
You'd think with things like freezing schools the guy would care more about that than some dumbass statue, but we know why the statue got him angry but the schools only got mentioned in context of the statue.
That guy is a total tool and does the whole "if Black people really cared" schtick like he's not a racist jackass but sincerely concerned for black people. But again, didn't give a shit about freezing schools in Baltimore until he could use it to make a completely fallacious point.
I can find a tweet with less editorializing if necessary. I remember all the uproar with “it’s just a shroud” and “forget about when we said confederates vs founding fathers was a clear difference and one wouldn’t slip into the other.” Well, is the spray paint just another kind of shrouding the statue? Does this have nothing to do with the anthem? Some people put graffiti on a statue. Fine them and have them pay for cleaning it. Does anyone here differ in the opinion that that is what should be done? Sometimes people do stupid stuff, but on the list of stupid stuff, this is a pretty small offense. In a nation of 300 million people, you are going to find someone that did something stupid every day. No one was hurt, and i doubt that any irreversable damage was done. Doesn't really sound like a thing of national importance. Maybe you missed Charlottesville. Is the anthem racist? Is the author racist? Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed. GH: Is it “home of the brave” that’s the racist part, or maybe “land of the free?” Rocket’s red glare also might be dog whistling. Is the anthem racist? - Probably not in it's entirety but the part GH quoted seems... a bit problematic nowadays Is the author racist? - If what P6 wrote in here about him is true then yeah. Does either make you want to call for that statue to be removed? - Not really. Unless that specific problematic part is on there? You can always change your anthem a bit to be more up to date with the current times if need be. We got rid of two of our stanzas (no idea if that's the word) in the german one as well because of all that... you know, “Germany above all else in the World” which does sound kind of hitlerish Well, I’ll take “a bit problematic nowadays” over “racist” as it goes. I’m all for plaques saying what salient features of this and that stand out (perserverence in the cause for freedom). I’m very much against erasing history because human beings do great things and wrong things. It also sends the wrong message about how adults should respond to the depth of individuals. Can you elaborate on how this "erases history"? The idea of changing or removing the anthem doesn't really seem to change anything. We've got everything written down. What is being lost? Removing statues is removing public reminders of our historical past. These ought to exist in public to center the present between past and future. Removing the visible reminders is a strike for relegating history to libraries only for people who decide to seek it out. I would say the same for any Spencer types that want to take out a public monument calling attention to Selma or the fugitive slave act or the dred Scott decision. As someone who got a whole degree in history, statues do not preserve history. They have never done that. They do distort history to favor the political views of the people who put up the statue. But they in no way preserve our history. Books, records and historians preserve our history and its accuracy. But if you want to fight for the views of the people who put up the confederate monuments, feel free. I mean there are statues of MLK but if they get torn down and defaced that would be okay because they don't preserve history and shouldn't be protected.
There are plenty of reasons to have statues of people that have nothing to do with "preserving history." Most of them have to do with celebrating their ideology or the movement they represented. That's why we have MLK statues, not because if we took them down we would forget him.
It's not like removing the giant penis from Washington D.C. would make people forget about George Washington.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
