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On January 17 2018 09:13 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:04 Aveng3r wrote:
The argument that you should take "racist" statues down seems weird to me, even if they were put up for racist motives. Shouldn't the message now be: "This is a great reminder of how bad we screwed up and need to do better moving forward"? Uhh yeah. But put people to the test and they declare them valueless (libraries!) and privilege racists that might look at the statue with anger in their heart. It really presumes Americans are too stupid to see flawed human beings or high malevolence up close, and its going to make racism ok again. You just have to ask enough questions to hear the true view, then press on a little more to see the backtracking. Also, note the silence when statues of MLK are brought up.
Why would there be silence when discussing a MLK statue?
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On January 17 2018 09:18 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:08 Danglars wrote:
I don’t see this story going places. Frankly I don't believe a fucking word out of his mouth. He's asking us to ignore what is plainly visible to us. In no universe is Trump 239lbs. In no universe is somebody who eats like he does at 71 and gets zero exercise "in great health." I don't even buy he is 2 inches taller than Obama. Doesn't pass the eye test. The fact that a weight of 239 puts him .1 BPI from being medically obese is a huge, and obvious, red flag. If I can't trust basic numbers like that, how can I trust anything else he says?
Trust the Obama people.
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And finally, this is going to pass as is, it seems.
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On January 17 2018 09:11 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:04 Aveng3r wrote:
The argument that you should take "racist" statues down seems weird to me, even if they were put up for racist motives. Shouldn't the message now be: "This is a great reminder of how bad we screwed up and need to do better moving forward"? you can have that message without having the same statues. you could put up more positively oriented statues for instance. also the statues weren't designed (and crafted) to display that message, but to display a very different one, and that probably rather shows, at least in some of them. It's also a sore point because a lot of people don't admit the screwup was so bad/ongoing racial tensions. if there weren't those it'd all be less of an issue. and is it so unreasonable to remove statues that were put up unreasonably in the first place?
but I think Danglars already admitted that he would be fine with adding a plaque to make absolutely sure it servers as a warning nowadays, even if it was put there for very different reasons.
I'd be fine with that.
Sure if you leave it like it is, without any context I'd rather have them seen taken down than left as is but proper context is probably even better and should be okay for both sides.
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On January 17 2018 09:23 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:11 zlefin wrote:On January 17 2018 09:04 Aveng3r wrote:
The argument that you should take "racist" statues down seems weird to me, even if they were put up for racist motives. Shouldn't the message now be: "This is a great reminder of how bad we screwed up and need to do better moving forward"? you can have that message without having the same statues. you could put up more positively oriented statues for instance. also the statues weren't designed (and crafted) to display that message, but to display a very different one, and that probably rather shows, at least in some of them. It's also a sore point because a lot of people don't admit the screwup was so bad/ongoing racial tensions. if there weren't those it'd all be less of an issue. and is it so unreasonable to remove statues that were put up unreasonably in the first place? but I think Danglars already admitted that he would be fine with adding a plaque to make absolutely sure it servers as a warning nowadays, even if it was put there for very different reasons. I'd be fine with that. Sure if you leave it like it is, without any context I'd rather have them seen taken down than left as is but proper context is probably even better and should be okay for both sides.
you'd be ok with nazi statues having been left up with just a plaque?
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On January 17 2018 09:19 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:13 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 09:04 Aveng3r wrote:
The argument that you should take "racist" statues down seems weird to me, even if they were put up for racist motives. Shouldn't the message now be: "This is a great reminder of how bad we screwed up and need to do better moving forward"? Uhh yeah. But put people to the test and they declare them valueless (libraries!) and privilege racists that might look at the statue with anger in their heart. It really presumes Americans are too stupid to see flawed human beings or high malevolence up close, and its going to make racism ok again. You just have to ask enough questions to hear the true view, then press on a little more to see the backtracking. Also, note the silence when statues of MLK are brought up. Why would there be silence when discussing a MLK statue?
The people arguing that they lack value and are ambivalent about preservation/removal realize that they can have value. That one was a contribution of sermokala, not me.
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Bummer. I hoped for more legislative protections against wiretaps+unmasking+distribution+peaks. The side that prevailed doesn’t want to rock the boat. It’s too much to hope for real concessions on other issues for their vote in favor.
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On January 17 2018 09:23 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:11 zlefin wrote:On January 17 2018 09:04 Aveng3r wrote:
The argument that you should take "racist" statues down seems weird to me, even if they were put up for racist motives. Shouldn't the message now be: "This is a great reminder of how bad we screwed up and need to do better moving forward"? you can have that message without having the same statues. you could put up more positively oriented statues for instance. also the statues weren't designed (and crafted) to display that message, but to display a very different one, and that probably rather shows, at least in some of them. It's also a sore point because a lot of people don't admit the screwup was so bad/ongoing racial tensions. if there weren't those it'd all be less of an issue. and is it so unreasonable to remove statues that were put up unreasonably in the first place? but I think Danglars already admitted that he would be fine with adding a plaque to make absolutely sure it servers as a warning nowadays, even if it was put there for very different reasons. I'd be fine with that. Sure if you leave it like it is, without any context I'd rather have them seen taken down than left as is but proper context is probably even better and should be okay for both sides.
Yes. But that was not enough for several posters, so they argued further than was wise.
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On January 17 2018 09:25 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:23 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 09:11 zlefin wrote:On January 17 2018 09:04 Aveng3r wrote:
The argument that you should take "racist" statues down seems weird to me, even if they were put up for racist motives. Shouldn't the message now be: "This is a great reminder of how bad we screwed up and need to do better moving forward"? you can have that message without having the same statues. you could put up more positively oriented statues for instance. also the statues weren't designed (and crafted) to display that message, but to display a very different one, and that probably rather shows, at least in some of them. It's also a sore point because a lot of people don't admit the screwup was so bad/ongoing racial tensions. if there weren't those it'd all be less of an issue. and is it so unreasonable to remove statues that were put up unreasonably in the first place? but I think Danglars already admitted that he would be fine with adding a plaque to make absolutely sure it servers as a warning nowadays, even if it was put there for very different reasons. I'd be fine with that. Sure if you leave it like it is, without any context I'd rather have them seen taken down than left as is but proper context is probably even better and should be okay for both sides. you'd be ok with nazi statues having been left up with just a plaque?
I mean I obviously wouldn't be willing to make that statement for each and every statue out there but for the one in question from earlier I'd make it.
As an example, we have this one in Germany in munich:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/kxXtN9I.jpg)
And on the backside it now looks like this:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Eim7drX.jpg)
It reads "DEM SIEG GEWEIHT VOM KRIEG ZERSTÖRT ZUM FRIEDEN MAHNEND" on there now, which would be something like "Dedicated to victory, destroyed by war, urging peace" (I took the wikipedia translation). Not a nazi one but I'm fine with that. There's obviously a point somewhere at which it just gets too extreme to keep something.
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So, it's not a nazi one? It's not clear if you actually answered my question or not; it kinda looks like you didn't. please keep the answer clear.
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I wish Danglars and the GOP were as concerned with 20th century history as they were with 18th century history. It's far more relevant to our country. A lot of America's greatest achievements and "superpower" came from that century, and those are the programs and traditions and alliances and ideals that are also currently being destroyed, as is reported on a near-daily basis.
But what we should talk about are statues.
This is like talking about kneeling NFL players. It's not the "subtext" that bothers me. It's that this is obviously a game you think you're playing. No one who actually gives a shit about American traditions, from the 20th or 18th century, is going to be more passionate about these fucking statues than any of the other ridiculous turn of precedents we're currently undergoing. But to even delve there, into these very real problems, to you would just be... I don't know... Trump-hate. Because if you care about 20th century America, which shapes what we are now, then hating Trump is at this point just a point of circumstance. Cause and effect.
But you're not a Trump supporter. And we're going to be told he is not a true Republican but the guy running in 2020 is. Play on, dude. This game is so old. I just don't know what you're doing, Danglars. Isn't it old?
edit: Actually, that's not entirely fair to Danglars. He has a right to bring up news-stories he cares about. He posted a story, he didn't force it to be debated. I don't know. It's a thread to discuss politics, and my political opposites want to discuss historical monument statues while there are about 101 other topics I'd find more relevant. It's not really the thread's fault, or Danglar's.
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On January 17 2018 09:19 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:13 Danglars wrote:On January 17 2018 09:04 Aveng3r wrote:
The argument that you should take "racist" statues down seems weird to me, even if they were put up for racist motives. Shouldn't the message now be: "This is a great reminder of how bad we screwed up and need to do better moving forward"? Uhh yeah. But put people to the test and they declare them valueless (libraries!) and privilege racists that might look at the statue with anger in their heart. It really presumes Americans are too stupid to see flawed human beings or high malevolence up close, and its going to make racism ok again. You just have to ask enough questions to hear the true view, then press on a little more to see the backtracking. Also, note the silence when statues of MLK are brought up. Why would there be silence when discussing a MLK statue?
He apparently missed when people responded to that.
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On January 17 2018 09:40 zlefin wrote:
So, it's not a nazi one? It's not clear if you actually answered my question or not; it kinda looks like you didn't. please keep the answer clear.
He said there is a point where its too extreme to keep something, nazi propoganda would probably be included in there.
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On January 17 2018 09:40 zlefin wrote:
So, it's not a nazi one? It's not clear if you actually answered my question or not; it kinda looks like you didn't. please keep the answer clear.
I intended the "There's obviously a point somewhere at which it just gets too extreme to keep something" to be your nazi-statue example. But that apparently wasn't clear, my bad. So no I wouldn't want to keep a nazi statue.
But I'm not sure the statue about your national anthem is really on that level, hence me bringing up that munich example. Maybe I'm just not enough of a history buff to put it correctly into context but it strikes me as something I'd be fine with as long as you add a message to it.
I completly agree that the tweet Danglars posted was garbage but I don't think it needs to be taken down.
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On January 17 2018 09:41 Leporello wrote:
I wish Danglars and the GOP were as concerned with 20th century history as they were with 18th century history. It's far more relevant to our country. A lot of America's greatest achievements and "superpower" came from that century, and those are the programs and traditions and alliances and ideals that are also currently being destroyed, as is reported on a near-daily basis.
But what we should talk about are statues.
This is like talking about kneeling NFL players. It's not the "subtext" that bothers me. It's that this is obviously a game you think you're playing. No one who actually gives a shit about American traditions, from the 20th or 18th century, is going to be more passionate about these fucking statues than any of the other ridiculous turn of precedents we're currently undergoing. But to even delve there, into these very real problems, to you would just be... I don't know... Trump-hate. Because if you care about 20th century America, which shapes what we are now, then hating Trump is at this point just a point of circumstance. Cause and effect.
But you're not a Trump supporter. And we're going to be told he is not a true Republican but the guy running in 2020 is. Play on, dude. This game is so old. I just don't know what you're doing, Danglars. Isn't it old?
This is partisan bullshit and so old that it’s a cliche. The Democrats found political power in racializing every issue and proceeded to do so as much as they could. It wasn’t “right policy to address the problem” vs “wrong policy to address the problem.” No. Today it’s “the right way to frame the problem” and “the multiple racist ways to frame the problem.” Thus, identifying the problems in America, identifying their causes, and proposing solutions was handicapped. You’ve profited from it whether you realize it or not. It turns tough issues like the debt and budgetary priorities into emotional issues like “fight the racists” and “acknowledge your white privilege and believe as I do.”
Along comes a blowhard, but he’s donated to both sides and he doesn’t play by the “please, Leporello, I’ll do anything you want just don’t call me a racist” game. He’s the fucking worst on so many dimensions, but he capitalized on a moment where the other side went too deep into “women and minorities are oppressed by whites in this country, and I’m the answer.” Identity politics is a cruel bitch. 21st century racialized politics is its brother. I’d like a return to rationality and maybe a little come-clean moment from the left in the wake of the 2016 election (It was Russia! Also, it was whitelash!), but we both can’t have what we want.
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On January 17 2018 09:58 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:40 zlefin wrote:
So, it's not a nazi one? It's not clear if you actually answered my question or not; it kinda looks like you didn't. please keep the answer clear. I intended the "There's obviously a point somewhere at which it just gets too extreme to keep something" to be your nazi-statue example. But that apparently wasn't clear, my bad. So no I wouldn't want to keep a nazi statue. But I'm not sure the statue about your national anthem is really on that level, hence me bringing up that munich example. Maybe I'm just not enough of a history buff to put it correctly into context but it strikes me as something I'd be fine with as long as you add a message to it. I completly agree that the tweet Danglars posted was garbage but I don't think it needs to be taken down.
who was talking about taking down the anthem guy's statue?
I don't recall anyone seriously discussing/advocating that; only the more general issue with confederate statues (aka the ones that were explicitly put up with racist motives/intent)
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On January 17 2018 09:18 On_Slaught wrote:Frankly I don't believe a fucking word out of his mouth. He's asking us to ignore what is plainly visible to us. In no universe is Trump 239lbs. In no universe is somebody who eats like he does at 71 and gets zero exercise "in great health." I don't even buy he is 2 inches taller than Obama. Doesn't pass the eye test. The fact that a weight of 239 puts him .1 BPI from being medically obese is a huge, and obvious, red flag. If I can't trust basic numbers like that, how can I trust anything else he says?
Don't do BMI by purely weight and height. It's a shit measurement with that few datapoints.
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On January 17 2018 10:04 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:58 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 09:40 zlefin wrote:
So, it's not a nazi one? It's not clear if you actually answered my question or not; it kinda looks like you didn't. please keep the answer clear. I intended the "There's obviously a point somewhere at which it just gets too extreme to keep something" to be your nazi-statue example. But that apparently wasn't clear, my bad. So no I wouldn't want to keep a nazi statue. But I'm not sure the statue about your national anthem is really on that level, hence me bringing up that munich example. Maybe I'm just not enough of a history buff to put it correctly into context but it strikes me as something I'd be fine with as long as you add a message to it. I completly agree that the tweet Danglars posted was garbage but I don't think it needs to be taken down. who was talking about taking down the anthem guy's statue? I don't recall anyone seriously discussing/advocating that; only the more general issue with confederate statues (aka the ones that were explicitly put up with racist motives/intent)
well that's how the conversation started:
>Danglars posted the tweet about the anthem statue
>GH and others said it's a racist statue as well as the anthem
>Danglars out of nowhere starts talking about why people would want to take it down (which yes, I agree was out of nowhere and noone argued that) but in the same post or somewhere around there goes on to say that he'd be fine with some kind of plaque on there instead
>people argue that just a message like that would be too little
So yeah, Danglars made the jump to taking down that statue out of nowhere but if I'm not missing out on something the responses were still about that post Danglars made, no matter if it's out of nowhere or not. So that means the whole "no, a message wouldn't be enough" would be about it, no matter if people asked for the removal of the anthem statue or if Danglars made that up on the spot, no?
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On January 17 2018 09:58 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:41 Leporello wrote:
I wish Danglars and the GOP were as concerned with 20th century history as they were with 18th century history. It's far more relevant to our country. A lot of America's greatest achievements and "superpower" came from that century, and those are the programs and traditions and alliances and ideals that are also currently being destroyed, as is reported on a near-daily basis.
But what we should talk about are statues.
This is like talking about kneeling NFL players. It's not the "subtext" that bothers me. It's that this is obviously a game you think you're playing. No one who actually gives a shit about American traditions, from the 20th or 18th century, is going to be more passionate about these fucking statues than any of the other ridiculous turn of precedents we're currently undergoing. But to even delve there, into these very real problems, to you would just be... I don't know... Trump-hate. Because if you care about 20th century America, which shapes what we are now, then hating Trump is at this point just a point of circumstance. Cause and effect.
But you're not a Trump supporter. And we're going to be told he is not a true Republican but the guy running in 2020 is. Play on, dude. This game is so old. I just don't know what you're doing, Danglars. Isn't it old? This is partisan bullshit and so old that it’s a cliche. The Democrats found political power in racializing every issue and proceeded to do so as much as they could. It wasn’t “right policy to address the problem” vs “wrong policy to address the problem.” No. Today it’s “the right way to frame the problem” and “the multiple racist ways to frame the problem.” Thus, identifying the problems in America, identifying their causes, and proposing solutions was handicapped. You’ve profited from it whether you realize it or not. It turns tough issues like the debt and budgetary priorities into emotional issues like “fight the racists” and “acknowledge your white privilege and believe as I do.” Along comes a blowhard, but he’s donated to both sides and he doesn’t play by the “please, Leporello, I’ll do anything you want just don’t call me a racist” game. He’s the fucking worst on so many dimensions, but he capitalized on a moment where the other side went too deep into “women and minorities are oppressed by whites in this country, and I’m the answer.” Identity politics is a cruel bitch. 21st century racialized politics is its brother. I’d like a return to rationality and maybe a little come-clean moment from the left in the wake of the 2016 election (It was Russia! Also, it was whitelash!), but we both can’t have what we want.
What are you talking about racism? You're talking about it. Not me. Nothing in my post was about racism.
When I'm talking about 20th century ideals, I'm talking about things like general welfare, social security, NATO, unions, labor rights.
You, as was my point, are actually the one who wants to talk about the cultural issues, that often delve into race. And you're accusing me of racializing something? You post seems to say "Everything is racialized and it's the left's fault, so I have to talk about racism." Or something like that. I reject every premise of your post. The "liberals" didn't racialize everything, and I have never accused anyone in this thread of being a racist, ever.
You should see my edit, btw. I tried to acquiesce, kind of realizing that this is just who you are, I don't share your bizarre values, etc.
I never even mildly insinuated you're a racist. Do I ever even participate in those discussions? They tire the shit out of me. That was my whole point, and you just completely ignored it and act like I'm playing a race-card or something.
I know I was rude, and I apologize for that. But I feel like you just... made my point instead of refuted it. Here we are talking about racism in a meaningless fashion and "the libs", instead of the destruction of the free press or something relevant. Play on.
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On January 17 2018 10:11 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 10:04 zlefin wrote:On January 17 2018 09:58 Toadesstern wrote:On January 17 2018 09:40 zlefin wrote:
So, it's not a nazi one? It's not clear if you actually answered my question or not; it kinda looks like you didn't. please keep the answer clear. I intended the "There's obviously a point somewhere at which it just gets too extreme to keep something" to be your nazi-statue example. But that apparently wasn't clear, my bad. So no I wouldn't want to keep a nazi statue. But I'm not sure the statue about your national anthem is really on that level, hence me bringing up that munich example. Maybe I'm just not enough of a history buff to put it correctly into context but it strikes me as something I'd be fine with as long as you add a message to it. I completly agree that the tweet Danglars posted was garbage but I don't think it needs to be taken down. who was talking about taking down the anthem guy's statue? I don't recall anyone seriously discussing/advocating that; only the more general issue with confederate statues (aka the ones that were explicitly put up with racist motives/intent) well that's how the conversation started: >Danglars posted the tweet about the anthem statue >GH and others said it's a racist statue as well as the anthem >Danglars out of nowhere starts talking about why people would want to take it down (which yes, I agree was out of nowhere) but in the same post or somewhere around there goes on to say that he'd be fine with some kind of plaque on there instead >people argue that just a message like that would be too few. So yeah, Danglars made the jump to taking down that statue out of nowhere but if I'm not missing out on something the responses were still about that post Danglars made, no matter if it's out of nowhere or not. So that means the whole "no, a message wouldn't be enough" would be about it, no matter if people asked for the removal of the anthem statue or if Danglars made that up on the spot, no?
the person I responded to seemed to be talking about the confederate statue issue (statues put up with racist intent), so that's what my statements were on; and i'm pretty danglars also made a point of seguing to it partially, but I try to ignore his nonsense, difficult as it is.
the prior discussion on danglars' nonsense also brougth up the confederate issue, and people talked about it; or at least that's how it looked to me. a standard part of danglars (and others) nonsense is switching back and forth which of the issues they're talking about, to muddle the issue and let them claim cheap rhetorical points.
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EPT
