EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 9672
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4800 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
I remember having this exact same conversation, where the other guy produced a link claiming that USA has more biomedical research done, except per capita, there is several countries well ahead of it, even though biomedical research is hardly an indicator of anything; the sheer blindness of some people, it really makes me wonder where this myth comes from. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35153 Posts
On January 12 2018 19:33 Uldridge wrote: Just think about this bo1b: I pay 20 euro's per month to have full dental; hospital and general health insurance. I get payed to get higher education if me (depending if I'm independent or not) or my parents fall under a certain income threshold and if they don't, well, it's still not going to put them or myself in debt. We have a very dense public transportation net, yet our roads are quite bad (probably the most densely ridden roads in Europe though so idk..) Our internet connections are, although quite monopolized, really great overall. I think Belgium/Netherlands/France/Germany and Scandinavian countries are the best in the world to live because we've invested so much in social netting in the past. Just to put things a little in perspective. To put this in perspective for the non-Americans, my job isn't full time, so I don't get employer based healthcare. I pay more that Uldridge does in taxes for healthcare because of our ER policy, but effectively get nothing from that. I pay a little over $360/month for healthcare to a private company, but that's only bare bones healthcare(I'll not bore you with the details). It doesn't include dental(another $20-40 a month) or eye care(Haven't checked, but I really should). To see my physician, I have a copay of $40, if I have to see a specialist it's $80, if I go to the ER, it's $550. I pay as much to go to the doctor for a routine checkup that finds nothing wrong as Uldridge does for his entire healthcare for 2 months. On January 12 2018 22:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: NSFW: https://twitter.com/CNNSitRoom/status/951594882929344512 Saw that yesterday. Got chills. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28673 Posts
I get the impulse to counterweight american exceptionalism and the idea that the US is the best country in the world, that notion is not really grounded in reality for most people. But even looking at the least preferable metrics will usually have the US as a whole being like ~top 30. There's a whole lot of distance between 'best' and 'shithole' and the US is definitely closer to being a top 10% country than a bottom 10% country, and I can't believe that I actually have to type that out. Yes, the middle class has deteriorated, but quality of life is not horrible for all the non-millionaire americans. That's ridiculous. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On January 12 2018 22:39 Liquid`Drone wrote: The notion that the US has the best top level healthcare is certainly closer to the truth than the idea that it's a shithole for all non-billionaires. The hyperbole is pretty ridiculous here. The US has ~about the 6th highest median income in the world. Education, the top universities are indeed top of the world. Yes Oxford and Cambridge are also top of the world, but top 20 rankings have something like 16 american ones. While general public education certainly has its issues, the US performs like a mid-tier european country in the PISA studies. (A bit worse in math tbh. But then there are also states like Massachusetts that would be a top 6 country.) I get the impulse to counterweight american exceptionalism and the idea that the US is the best country in the world, that notion is not really grounded in reality for most people. But even looking at the least preferable metrics will usually have the US as a whole being like ~top 30. There's a whole lot of distance between 'best' and 'shithole' and the US is definitely closer to being a top 10% country than a bottom 10% country, and I can't believe that I actually have to type that out. Yes, the middle class has deteriorated, but quality of life is not horrible for all the non-millionaire americans. That's ridiculous. Quality of life isn't horrible. It's just not anything special. The problem is that the Baby Boomer generation very loudly proclaimed that it was for decades and tried to drill it into everyone's heads. Now that Millenials can see what a dumpster fire that we were handed, we're pretty pissed. The U.S. doesn't have the healthcare system of a 3rd world country by any stretch of the imagination. However, if you are an average person living in this country it is one of the worst healthcare systems in the developed world to be subject to. This is not an argument. This is a fact borne out by an incredibly variety of patient outcome measures. Everything from life expectancy to infant/mother mortality rates to number of prescriptions to recurring visits etc. etc. etc. This healthcare system is an embarrassment. End of story. If you are trying to argue with this you simply don't know what you're talking about. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9653 Posts
On January 12 2018 22:39 Liquid`Drone wrote: The notion that the US has the best top level healthcare is certainly closer to the truth than the idea that it's a shithole for all non-billionaires. The hyperbole is pretty ridiculous here. The US has ~about the 6th highest median income in the world. Education, the top universities are indeed top of the world. Yes Oxford and Cambridge are also top of the world, but top 20 rankings have something like 16 american ones. While general public education certainly has its issues, the US performs like a mid-tier european country in the PISA studies. (A bit worse in math tbh. But then there are also states like Massachusetts that would be a top 6 country.) I get the impulse to counterweight american exceptionalism and the idea that the US is the best country in the world, that notion is not really grounded in reality for most people. But even looking at the least preferable metrics will usually have the US as a whole being like ~top 30. There's a whole lot of distance between 'best' and 'shithole' and the US is definitely closer to being a top 10% country than a bottom 10% country, and I can't believe that I actually have to type that out. Yes, the middle class has deteriorated, but quality of life is not horrible for all the non-millionaire americans. That's ridiculous. The problem is that it could so easily be the best country in the world. It would only require some small changes to certain systems, but the American political class is so ideologically possessed/in the pockets of business that they won't even consider making those changes. People are right to complain about American healthcare. It could be so much better. | ||
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farvacola
United States18828 Posts
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4800 Posts
On January 12 2018 22:37 Gahlo wrote: To put this in perspective for the non-Americans, my job isn't full time, so I don't get employer based healthcare. I pay more that Uldridge does in taxes for healthcare because of our ER policy, but effectively get nothing from that. I pay a little over $360/month for healthcare to a private company, but that's only bare bones healthcare(I'll not bore you with the details). It doesn't include dental(another $20-40 a month) or eye care(Haven't checked, but I really should). To see my physician, I have a copay of $40, if I have to see a specialist it's $80, if I go to the ER, it's $550. I pay as much to go to the doctor for a routine checkup that finds nothing wrong as Uldridge does for his entire healthcare for 2 months. Saw that yesterday. Got chills. I should've been a bit more complete here, sorry. We still have to pay our hospitals/doctor visits and medical bills. We just get a near full refund (~75+% to almost full depending on what you have to pay) most of the time. Health insurance isn't completely 100% covered, as it's partly privately regulated. Still, doctor/dentist visits are affordable as fuck here. With insurance inlcuded it's about €20/day for a one->multiple bed room in the hospital for example. We also have to pay 100 euro's per year for the "sickness registry" loosely translated. This is some kind of national health insurance tax. So in the end, I pay around a 30 euro/month for health insurance, pay a bit extra when I need an examination/medication/hospitalization, but makes it that I can have very effective care throughout my life. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
I still had to pay for dentistry from about $30 to $80 depending on the work done. Of course a quarter of my taxes is a quarter of my taxes, but such is the cost for a society that works. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11519 Posts
On January 12 2018 22:37 Gahlo wrote: To put this in perspective for the non-Americans, my job isn't full time, so I don't get employer based healthcare. I pay more that Uldridge does in taxes for healthcare because of our ER policy, but effectively get nothing from that. I pay a little over $360/month for healthcare to a private company, but that's only bare bones healthcare(I'll not bore you with the details). It doesn't include dental(another $20-40 a month) or eye care(Haven't checked, but I really should). To see my physician, I have a copay of $40, if I have to see a specialist it's $80, if I go to the ER, it's $550. I pay as much to go to the doctor for a routine checkup that finds nothing wrong as Uldridge does for his entire healthcare for 2 months. Saw that yesterday. Got chills. Though i would guess that Uldridge is either a special case (student or something) or their government mostly pays for healthcare in taxes. You can't actually get quality healthcare for 20 bucks a month, so the money has got to come from somewhere. For example, in Germany healthcare costs are usually percentage income based, and the employer also pays percentage income based money for healthcare. Fairer statistics compare average money spend per person on healthcare (While also taking a way to look at how that money is distributed), or something like that. Because it is not very important whether the money you pay for healthcare comes from taxes or health insurance or whatever, the important question is how much you pay, how it is distributed among the population, and what healthcare you get for that. That being said, the US is still bad in all of those categories, just not 20€/380$++ bad. I like these statistics to compare US healthcare to other countries: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective Granted, they are slowly getting more dated being based on 2012 data. But they give you a good general comparison of countries. The US pays roughly 1.5-2x as much total money for healthcare (per capita obviously). The US pays roughly 1.5x as much as a percentage of GDP for healthcare. The US pays more PUBLIC money for healthcare than most countries which have a single payer system, while also paying WAY more private money. And for all of that, the average results are worse. This OECD stat page show that this hasn't changed in the last few years either. I suggest clicking about a bit and comparing stuff, and trying to find any statistics in which the US is even in the middle of first world countries. I haven't found one yet. Not even speaking of "TOP!!!". This is the effect of the healthcare system on the average citizen, not on the top, of course. The US healthcare system is pretty good if you are a billionaire. But maybe that shouldn't be the focus of a healthcare system. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On January 12 2018 22:58 Plansix wrote: The recent Trump comments about shithole countries really undercuts that push for “merit based” immigration. Also undercuts the whole "he isn't a racist" narrative (again). He tweeted this morning he didn't use that word. I really hope somebody has the tape and leaks/reveals it. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4800 Posts
On January 12 2018 23:04 Simberto wrote: Though i would guess that Uldridge is either a special case (student or something) or their government mostly pays for healthcare in taxes. You can't actually get quality healthcare for 20 bucks a month, so the money has got to come from somewhere. Explained my situation a bit more in a post after that. But it's not much more tbh. Very affordable. Every person above 25 pays 100 euro per year for the "health registry" and then you're obliged by law to get health insurance between 15-(however high you want to be ensured with every (luxury) bonus you can imagine). I'm fully ensured for 25 euro/month (I keep readjusting because I don't perfectly know the fucking price lol, but this is my final sum, I swear) + the yearly 100 euros. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11519 Posts
On January 12 2018 23:31 Uldridge wrote: Explained my situation a bit more in a post after that. But it's not much more tbh. Very affordable. Every person above 25 pays 100 euro per year for the "health registry" and then you're obliged by law to get health insurance between 15-(however high you want to be ensured with every (luxury) bonus you can imagine). I'm fully ensured for 25 euro/month (I keep readjusting because I don't perfectly know the fucking price lol, but this is my final sum, I swear) + the yearly 100 euros. Which probably means that a lot of the healthcare is subsidized by taxes. Because unless you enslave doctors, that is not enough money for healthcare. According to the OECD page i linked earlier, average healthcare costs in Belgium are ~4800$/year, which is distinctly more than 100+25*12=400 Edit: Wikipedia tells me that your healthcare is mostly financed through your social security payments, which are based on your income with additional payments being made by employers. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 12 2018 23:13 On_Slaught wrote: Also undercuts the whole "he isn't a racist" narrative (again). He tweeted this morning he didn't use that word. I really hope somebody has the tape and leaks/reveals it. The tweet this morning only confirms that Trump wants people from Norway, rather than people from African nations. This is despite the evidence that legal Africans immigrants do much better than average when them come to the US. But lets not let merit get in the way of some good old fashion racism. And this is legal immigration too. He doesn’t want merit based immigration. He wants immigration based on which countries have people he thinks are worth coming to America, aka, white people. It is easy to see the reality here. If this was the 1900s, Trump would be out saying my great grandfather should go back to Ireland. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4800 Posts
And the amount I said is simply an amount to dampen costs of doctors, medication and hospitals. You still pay these, but get reimbursed for a good amount. If you almost never go see a doctor you won't have high costs obviously. | ||
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brian
United States9620 Posts
LOL at those Ali tweets. He definitely sat on that until Trump denied it. right? LOL. | ||
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