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Canada11535 Posts
On January 10 2018 11:35 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 09:49 KwarK wrote:
As a FYI the kiosks have been in fast food places in Europe for a while now and were always coming to the US. Nothing to do with minimum wage increases, the tech was already there.
Corporations shilling against minimum wages every time they do anything is a reflection of their desire to cut labour expenses, not preserve jobs. Well Ontario in Canada is brute forcing it. Their minimum wage went from 11.40 to 11.60 in October of 2017 and then at the beginning of December 2017 the provincial government announced $14/hr in January 2018 and $15 in 2019. It's a 20% increase in the minimum wage out of the blue. It's an interesting experiment and probably going to be pretty heavily studied as to how companies react when the minimum wage is $14 for burger flippers and cashiers. I'm expecting highschoolers to have extreme difficulty finding summer job because there will be a fair bit of cut backs/automation anywhere it can be applied
And already we see the companies trying to offload the cost elsewhere- Tim Hortons franchisees are barred from raising prices to offload onto the customers, so they are attempting to offload on their employees- rolling back benefits, refusing to pay for uniforms, etc. There's a bit of a public backlash now, so we'll see where it goes.
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if people are mistreated by the state it seems straightforward that they're turning towards other institutions for justice. For African-Americans that institution has been the church, it's not surprising.
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On January 10 2018 12:48 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 11:35 Lmui wrote:On January 10 2018 09:49 KwarK wrote:
As a FYI the kiosks have been in fast food places in Europe for a while now and were always coming to the US. Nothing to do with minimum wage increases, the tech was already there.
Corporations shilling against minimum wages every time they do anything is a reflection of their desire to cut labour expenses, not preserve jobs. Well Ontario in Canada is brute forcing it. Their minimum wage went from 11.40 to 11.60 in October of 2017 and then at the beginning of December 2017 the provincial government announced $14/hr in January 2018 and $15 in 2019. It's a 20% increase in the minimum wage out of the blue. It's an interesting experiment and probably going to be pretty heavily studied as to how companies react when the minimum wage is $14 for burger flippers and cashiers. I'm expecting highschoolers to have extreme difficulty finding summer job because there will be a fair bit of cut backs/automation anywhere it can be applied And already we see the companies trying to offload the cost elsewhere- Tim Hortons franchisees are barred from raising prices to offload onto the customers, so they are attempting to offload on their employees- rolling back benefits, refusing to pay for uniforms, etc. There's a bit of a public backlash now, so we'll see where it goes.
As a Canadian citizen, Tim's is dead to me. There ain't nothing Canadian about the shit they are trying to pull. They've never been that great, but their wholesome Canadian image kept them afloat. Once they put on the cigar smoking fat cat bullshit, I find myself with less reason to wave little Canadian flags while getting their shitty coffee.
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If a company is turning a profit, and hasn't cut executive pay then they are just using minimum wage to scapegoat something they want to do anyway.
I can't speak to Canada specifically, but the idea that companies can't compete if they pay a living wage is a problem of their own making, particularly considering they are paying "burger-flippers" significantly less than the parity wage they used to while their executives are making absurdly more.
I understand why executives and people directly profiting off them (accountants and such) would defend the propaganda that minimum wage is a driving force behind companies laying off workers, rather than a preexisting desire to minimize employees, I don't understand why the rest of folks do though.
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On January 10 2018 13:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
If a company is turning a profit, and hasn't cut executive pay then they are just using minimum wage to scapegoat something they want to do anyway.
I can't speak to Canada specifically, but the idea that companies can't compete if they pay a living wage is a problem of their own making, particularly considering they are paying "burger-flippers" significantly less than the parity wage they used to while their executives are making absurdly more.
I understand why executives and people directly profiting off them (accountants and such) would defend the propaganda that minimum wage is a driving force behind companies laying off workers, rather than a preexisting desire to minimize employees, I don't understand why the rest of folks do though.
My friend is a small business owner and pays his employees minimum of $15/hr. He always tells people if you can't pay someone $15, you're definitely a terrible business owner.
A lot of people don't like to hear that and feel like they deserve praise for having the courage to ride small business tax breaks into mediocrity.
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On January 10 2018 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 13:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
If a company is turning a profit, and hasn't cut executive pay then they are just using minimum wage to scapegoat something they want to do anyway.
I can't speak to Canada specifically, but the idea that companies can't compete if they pay a living wage is a problem of their own making, particularly considering they are paying "burger-flippers" significantly less than the parity wage they used to while their executives are making absurdly more.
I understand why executives and people directly profiting off them (accountants and such) would defend the propaganda that minimum wage is a driving force behind companies laying off workers, rather than a preexisting desire to minimize employees, I don't understand why the rest of folks do though. My friend is a small business owner and pays his employees minimum of $15/hr. He always tells people if you can't pay someone $15, you're definitely a terrible business owner. A lot of people don't like to hear that and feel like they deserve praise for having the courage to ride small business tax breaks into mediocrity.
A founding principal of minimum wage was that no business deserves to exist in this country if it can't afford to pay it's workers a living wage.
The whole "it's supposed to be a starting wage for teenagers" is nothing but propaganda that people have inexplicably adopted to their own detriment.
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On January 10 2018 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 13:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
If a company is turning a profit, and hasn't cut executive pay then they are just using minimum wage to scapegoat something they want to do anyway.
I can't speak to Canada specifically, but the idea that companies can't compete if they pay a living wage is a problem of their own making, particularly considering they are paying "burger-flippers" significantly less than the parity wage they used to while their executives are making absurdly more.
I understand why executives and people directly profiting off them (accountants and such) would defend the propaganda that minimum wage is a driving force behind companies laying off workers, rather than a preexisting desire to minimize employees, I don't understand why the rest of folks do though. My friend is a small business owner and pays his employees minimum of $15/hr. He always tells people if you can't pay someone $15, you're definitely a terrible business owner. A lot of people don't like to hear that and feel like they deserve praise for having the courage to ride small business tax breaks into mediocrity.
How can you be the backbone of the American Economy when you're doing as little to support the middle class as possible?
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$15 wages aren't too much for pretty much any business... as long as the person actually does a $15 job. If $15 is like 1.8x minimum wage, that is reasonable to expect. If it's 1.0x, I don't think so.
Of course that isn't to say that it might not still be worth it assuming the circumstances are right, but I am loathe to assume that smaller businesses won't be fucked by an increase in salaries. Big businesses can take it; the US has been remarkably kind to its large corporations over the years and they could afford to take a hit while still being reasonably profitable. But forcing people to pay 80% more for any form of labor they might want to hire? Might not end so good.
If it's more like a 10-20% hike because you live in a high COL area, then sure, $15 is fine. If it's an 80% hike, holy shit no, that's too much.
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On January 10 2018 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
$15 wages aren't too much for pretty much any business... as long as the person actually does a $15 job. If $15 is like 1.8x minimum wage, that is reasonable to expect. If it's 1.0x, I don't think so.
Of course that isn't to say that it might not still be worth it assuming the circumstances are right, but I am loathe to assume that smaller businesses won't be fucked by an increase in salaries. Big businesses can take it; the US has been remarkably kind to its large corporations over the years and they could afford to take a hit while still being reasonably profitable. But forcing people to pay 80% more for any form of labor they might want to hire? Might not end so good.
If it's more like a 10-20% hike because you live in a high COL area, then sure, $15 is fine. If it's an 80% hike, holy shit no, that's too much.
You might be making the start of a great case to implement a tax on big businesses to subsidize wages of smaller businesses, or for the wealthiest to just treat their addictions before society does it for them.
EDIT: To be clear, your point on COL sounds reasonable until you realize that even a place like Texas (100%+) would be below their parity wages at $15/hr.
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On January 10 2018 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
$15 wages aren't too much for pretty much any business... as long as the person actually does a $15 job. If $15 is like 1.8x minimum wage, that is reasonable to expect. If it's 1.0x, I don't think so.
Of course that isn't to say that it might not still be worth it assuming the circumstances are right, but I am loathe to assume that smaller businesses won't be fucked by an increase in salaries. Big businesses can take it; the US has been remarkably kind to its large corporations over the years and they could afford to take a hit while still being reasonably profitable. But forcing people to pay 80% more for any form of labor they might want to hire? Might not end so good.
If it's more like a 10-20% hike because you live in a high COL area, then sure, $15 is fine. If it's an 80% hike, holy shit no, that's too much.
The way I see it, if a business owner can't design their business around having people be worth $15, they've done a shitty job at designing their business. It's a shitty business that just shouldn't exist. The person owning the business needs to realize they aren't special and go back to being another cog like the rest of us.
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On January 10 2018 14:00 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
$15 wages aren't too much for pretty much any business... as long as the person actually does a $15 job. If $15 is like 1.8x minimum wage, that is reasonable to expect. If it's 1.0x, I don't think so.
Of course that isn't to say that it might not still be worth it assuming the circumstances are right, but I am loathe to assume that smaller businesses won't be fucked by an increase in salaries. Big businesses can take it; the US has been remarkably kind to its large corporations over the years and they could afford to take a hit while still being reasonably profitable. But forcing people to pay 80% more for any form of labor they might want to hire? Might not end so good.
If it's more like a 10-20% hike because you live in a high COL area, then sure, $15 is fine. If it's an 80% hike, holy shit no, that's too much. The way I see it, if a business owner can't design their business around having people be worth $15, they've done a shitty job at designing their business. It's a shitty business that just shouldn't exist. The person owning the business needs to realize they aren't special and go back to being another cog like the rest of us.
Could be dramatically different in the USA, and I 100% agree that you should pay your staff at least the minimum wage, but having known people who start manufacturing businesses and the ramp up times associated, this sort of comment rankles a bit.
People just do not know how hard getting a business up and running can be until they've experienced it or witnessed it.
This is just from the perspective of small business and manufacturing. It could be wildly different for other business types.
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On January 10 2018 14:00 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
$15 wages aren't too much for pretty much any business... as long as the person actually does a $15 job. If $15 is like 1.8x minimum wage, that is reasonable to expect. If it's 1.0x, I don't think so.
Of course that isn't to say that it might not still be worth it assuming the circumstances are right, but I am loathe to assume that smaller businesses won't be fucked by an increase in salaries. Big businesses can take it; the US has been remarkably kind to its large corporations over the years and they could afford to take a hit while still being reasonably profitable. But forcing people to pay 80% more for any form of labor they might want to hire? Might not end so good.
If it's more like a 10-20% hike because you live in a high COL area, then sure, $15 is fine. If it's an 80% hike, holy shit no, that's too much. The way I see it, if a business owner can't design their business around having people be worth $15, they've done a shitty job at designing their business. It's a shitty business that just shouldn't exist. The person owning the business needs to realize they aren't special and go back to being another cog like the rest of us.
From my own experience this is patently absurd.
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On January 10 2018 14:09 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 14:00 Mohdoo wrote:On January 10 2018 13:37 LegalLord wrote:
$15 wages aren't too much for pretty much any business... as long as the person actually does a $15 job. If $15 is like 1.8x minimum wage, that is reasonable to expect. If it's 1.0x, I don't think so.
Of course that isn't to say that it might not still be worth it assuming the circumstances are right, but I am loathe to assume that smaller businesses won't be fucked by an increase in salaries. Big businesses can take it; the US has been remarkably kind to its large corporations over the years and they could afford to take a hit while still being reasonably profitable. But forcing people to pay 80% more for any form of labor they might want to hire? Might not end so good.
If it's more like a 10-20% hike because you live in a high COL area, then sure, $15 is fine. If it's an 80% hike, holy shit no, that's too much. The way I see it, if a business owner can't design their business around having people be worth $15, they've done a shitty job at designing their business. It's a shitty business that just shouldn't exist. The person owning the business needs to realize they aren't special and go back to being another cog like the rest of us. Could be dramatically different in the USA, and I 100% agree that you should pay your staff at least the minimum wage, but having known people who start manufacturing businesses and the ramp up times associated, this sort of comment rankles a bit. People just do not know how hard getting a business up and running can be until they've experienced it or witnessed it. This is just from the perspective of small business and manufacturing. It could be wildly different for other business types.
It being difficult doesn't mean they deserve pity. People do a lot of extremely difficult things. They are compensated for it. You are too sympathetic to the people you know. They may work hard, do a lot of research, but that doesn't mean they should own a business. My point is that all the fuzzy wuzzy that goes into someone deciding to have the courage to open a business doesn't mean anything.
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I don't think it's good for a nation to make it as difficult as possible for small business to succeed.
I'm also 99% certain you haven't started a business as well, with that sort of attitude.
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On January 10 2018 14:24 bo1b wrote:
I don't think it's good for a nation to make it as difficult as possible for small business to succeed.
I'm also 99% certain you haven't started a business as well, with that sort of attitude.
Make it as hard as possible? Who said that? Why can some people afford $15 in the same city and others can't? What if someone's entire business idea is just stupid? The mistake you are making is assuming they had a good idea to begin with.
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The mistake you seem to be making is that a good idea is about .1% of a successful business, and that most, non tech oriented businesses without enourmous outside funding require more hard work to get going then almost anything else.
Watching a manufacturing company shut shop because it's easier for Amazon to have the product drop shipped in from China then pay the premium on a home made product in which the owners worked ludicrous hours, only to fail, should absolutely evoke sympathy.
I should avoid this topic, I can see myself being banned again.
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On January 10 2018 14:34 bo1b wrote:
The mistake you seem to be making is that a good idea is about .1% of a successful business, and that most, non tech oriented businesses without enourmous outside funding require more hard work to get going then almost anything else.
Watching a manufacturing company shut shop because it's easier for Amazon to have the product drop shipped in from China then pay the premium on a home made product in which the owners worked ludicrous hours, only to fail, should absolutely evoke sympathy.
I should avoid this topic, I can see myself being banned again.
If your friend was competing with Chinese manufacturing, your friend is an idiot. He should be removed from the list of "small business owners". 0.1% is probably appropriate given the barrier to entry. People are encouraged to open small businesses because the state has interest in the ones that succeed.
When your friend has employees who still need food stamps or any other form of government assistance, your friend isn't actually doing anything. He's just telling himself he did a great job and ignoring the fact that his business generates externalities covered by the government.
Why did he try competing with Chinese manufacturing? Is he aware of their cost of living? Manufacturing costs? Local government regulations? You're making me less sympathetic with every detail. This friend sounds like the romantic fool I am speaking against. His dreams mean nothing.
I'll phrase this another way: if someone fails our of medical school, should they still be a doctor?
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I have to say that I agree with everything bo1b says because in my own experience that's exactly how things work with a real, rather than theoretical, small business. It's pretty clear that Mohdoo has never really gone through the motions of starting a business. The irritating thing is that you can't really explain it to most people; it's all too easy to take a "principled" approach if you've never gone through the motions and the tedium of implementing a business of your own, and saying "if they were good they wouldn't need to cut corners or underpay." Fuck no, that's not even close to how it works in the real world. If every small business had to "play by the rules" and do everything the "right" way as expected of bigger, more established players, they would get crowded out of every market ever 100% of the time. One of the things that you sometimes have to do is pay grunt wages to grunt laborers, rather than paying them real wages, because otherwise you won't ever have any form of competitive advantage whatsoever.
Yes, this can be abused; the perfect case study is the "startup" industry of Silicon Valley that just masquerades as small businesses to underpay and support shitty working conditions while getting consistent legislative and other special favors all around. But in general, you absolutely have to throw small businesses a bone every once in a while to let them have the chance to actually design a more viable long-term environment. Once that happens wages generally do rise, because any business that doesn't scrape the bottom of the barrel wants actual decent professionals rather than whatever grunts you can get for $8. But not understanding the need for small businesses to need occasional advantages is a position generally borne of the ignorance of never having dabbled with one.
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EPT
