|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 10 2018 14:41 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 14:34 bo1b wrote:
The mistake you seem to be making is that a good idea is about .1% of a successful business, and that most, non tech oriented businesses without enourmous outside funding require more hard work to get going then almost anything else.
Watching a manufacturing company shut shop because it's easier for Amazon to have the product drop shipped in from China then pay the premium on a home made product in which the owners worked ludicrous hours, only to fail, should absolutely evoke sympathy.
I should avoid this topic, I can see myself being banned again. If your friend was competing with Chinese manufacturing, your friend is an idiot. He should be removed from the list of "small business owners". 0.1% is probably appropriate given the barrier to entry. People are encouraged to open small businesses because the state has interest in the ones that succeed. When your friend has employees who still need food stamps or any other form of government assistance, your friend isn't actually doing anything. He's just telling himself he did a great job and ignoring the fact that his business generates externalities covered by the government. Why did he try competing with Chinese manufacturing? Is he aware of their cost of living? Manufacturing costs? Local government regulations? You're making me less sympathetic with every detail. This friend sounds like the romantic fool I am speaking against. His dreams mean nothing.
Please stop putting words in my mouth, the people I'm talking about are relatively speaking quite successful and succeeded in their aspirations.
Have you considered that jobs might be able to pay more then food stamp wages if they weren't competing against borderline slavery in third world nations? The dreams of private enterprise have done more to lift the conditions of people across the world then literally anything else - sometimes it goes horribly wrong, and you get cases like Nesle selling coke to Africans, which is awful.
I hope that you can learn the concept of delayed gratification, and that small businesses that aren't successful on day one aren't doomed to remain unsuccessful, and are in fact a pivotal part of any successful capitalistic society (arguably any society).
Realistically speaking, from what I've read, it's not the people I know who are idiots, it's you.
User was warned for this post
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
I could've sworn she pissed people off with a little thing called "John Podesta's emails" and no one gave any significant shits about any book she wrote.
|
Let the record show I am completely against any form of tax evasion or underpaying staff. Let the record also show the process of starting a business is not the same as passing a medical exam (though a lot of people who do end up owning small businesse, huh).
|
Even if you want to redistribute wealth/income, it takes about 5 minutes of thinking about the inefficiencies of price controls in a competitive market to realize that raising the minimum wage is a pretty terrible way to do it.
Most minimum wage employees are (or were) primarily in retail, manufacturing, and food service. Good luck arguing those industries are taking in excess profits in the current economy.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 10 2018 14:48 bo1b wrote:
Realistically speaking, from what I've read, it's not the people I know who are idiots, it's you.
Based on this last comment you might want to draw the line about here.
But this line:
On January 10 2018 14:48 bo1b wrote:
I hope that you can learn the concept of delayed gratification, and that small businesses that aren't successful on day one aren't doomed to remain unsuccessful, and are in fact a pivotal part of any successful capitalistic society (arguably any society).
That's a great way to put it. A successful or viable business model isn't built in a single day and if the world were run by "if they were good they wouldn't need to do this" leaders then they never would be built.
|
On January 10 2018 14:48 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 14:41 Mohdoo wrote:On January 10 2018 14:34 bo1b wrote:
The mistake you seem to be making is that a good idea is about .1% of a successful business, and that most, non tech oriented businesses without enourmous outside funding require more hard work to get going then almost anything else.
Watching a manufacturing company shut shop because it's easier for Amazon to have the product drop shipped in from China then pay the premium on a home made product in which the owners worked ludicrous hours, only to fail, should absolutely evoke sympathy.
I should avoid this topic, I can see myself being banned again. If your friend was competing with Chinese manufacturing, your friend is an idiot. He should be removed from the list of "small business owners". 0.1% is probably appropriate given the barrier to entry. People are encouraged to open small businesses because the state has interest in the ones that succeed. When your friend has employees who still need food stamps or any other form of government assistance, your friend isn't actually doing anything. He's just telling himself he did a great job and ignoring the fact that his business generates externalities covered by the government. Why did he try competing with Chinese manufacturing? Is he aware of their cost of living? Manufacturing costs? Local government regulations? You're making me less sympathetic with every detail. This friend sounds like the romantic fool I am speaking against. His dreams mean nothing. Please stop putting words in my mouth, the people I'm talking about are relatively speaking quite successful and succeeded in their aspirations. Have you considered that jobs might be able to pay more then food stamp wages if they weren't competing against borderline slavery in third world nations? The dreams of private enterprise have done more to lift the conditions of people across the world then literally anything else - sometimes it goes horribly wrong, and you get cases like Nesle selling coke to Africans, which is awful. I hope that you can learn the concept of delayed gratification, and that small businesses that aren't successful on day one aren't doomed to remain unsuccessful, and are in fact a pivotal part of any successful capitalistic society (arguably any society). Realistically speaking, from what I've read, it's not the people I know who are idiots, it's you.
"This business would work so long as a very real global economy didn't exist" is a really bad way to pitch an idea. You keep framing this as a moral issue, as if I should cheer someone on for knowingly setting out to do something where the cards are stacked against them. I think we agree on the role of small businesses and just disagree on how good is good enough.
I don't disagree about Nestle and whatnot. My point is that they should have done something else. They did what they did because they had passion, a dream or whatever other stuff. Dreaming isn't enough. Passion isn't enough. A really good guy with totally Noble intentions is not entitled to a business.
I think we're talking past each other. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. We just disagree on how good a business owner needs to be at their job to not be fired. You are ignoring the fact that there is an enormous range of business acumen. I don't wanna live in a world where all someone needs to start a business is a dream and a great attitude. My tax dollars are worth more than that.
Most small business owners make a very poor living and could be making more money working for another company. So in effect, the government is subsidizing someone's dreams. That is fucking stupid.
|
"My tax dollars are worth more then some lefty going to study underwater basket weaving" - My father on his tax dollars going towards education.
Small business owners also aren't necessarily full time doing that, it's technically a small business the guy who goes out and mows lawns on his own circuit in order to get some coin through university.
His tax dollars are worth more then that, but they're worth less then what is achieved overall. Sometimes shitty businesses will be funded by tax dollars and sometimes a business will turn into some massive company and pay itself off many times over, and then have employees pay that off many times over.
It's silly to look at parts of things you don't like and then decry the overall state.
I'm also a little curious what your thoughts are towards small business in things like the food and service industry. I'd make the argument they're essential for the economy even if they themselves don't make huge profits, and more importantly they're critical for the culture of the nation. I think there is real value in shitty, minimum wage jobs aimed at 15 year olds, even if adults don't want to be on that sort of income. Keeps the nation moving.
|
On January 10 2018 15:01 bo1b wrote:
"My tax dollars are worth more then some lefty going to study underwater basket weaving" - My father on his tax dollars going towards education.
His tax dollars are worth more then that, but they're worth less then what is achieved overall. Sometimes shitty businesses will be funded by tax dollars and sometimes a business will turn into some massive company and pay itself off many times over, and then have employees pay that off many times over.
It's silly to look at parts of things you don't like and then decry the overall state.
Fair enough. Somewhere out there, there are a group of actuaries who can determine what kind of risk a government ought to take in subsidizing small businesses waiting for the jackpot. My impression is that the minimum is too low. But at the end of the day, I'm not an actuary. I don't know shit. Maybe it is actually perfect.
Edit: to address your questions on small business food, forget everything I said. My tax dollars are totally worth Chinese food.
Edit2: on the topic or culture and societal things I could never hope to quantify, you are also right. It is entirely possible the cultural enviroent created by being easy on business owners encourages good business owners to take a risk, such as bill gates and others.
To reiterate, I really don't have a clue what I am talking about and I would never vote in accordance with my beliefs because I don't know if they are remotely credible.
|
On January 10 2018 14:54 mozoku wrote:
Even if you want to redistribute wealth/income, it takes about 5 minutes of thinking about the inefficiencies of price controls in a competitive market to realize that raising the minimum wage is a pretty terrible way to do it.
Most minimum wage employees are (or were) primarily in retail, manufacturing, and food service. Good luck arguing those industries are taking in excess profits in the current economy.
Yo, watched the video yet, or you gonna die on that hill?
|
On January 10 2018 15:06 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 15:01 bo1b wrote:
"My tax dollars are worth more then some lefty going to study underwater basket weaving" - My father on his tax dollars going towards education.
His tax dollars are worth more then that, but they're worth less then what is achieved overall. Sometimes shitty businesses will be funded by tax dollars and sometimes a business will turn into some massive company and pay itself off many times over, and then have employees pay that off many times over.
It's silly to look at parts of things you don't like and then decry the overall state. Fair enough. Somewhere out there, there are a group of actuaries who can determine what kind of risk a government ought to take in subsidizing small businesses waiting for the jackpot. My impression is that the minimum is too low. But at the end of the day, I'm not an actuary. I don't know shit. Maybe it is actually perfect. Edit: to address your questions on small business food, forget everything I said. My tax dollars are totally worth Chinese food. Edit2: on the topic or culture and societal things I could never hope to quantify, you are also right. It is entirely possible the cultural enviroent created by being easy on business owners encourages good business owners to take a risk, such as bill gates and others. To reiterate, I really don't have a clue what I am talking about and I would never vote in accordance with my beliefs because I don't know if they are remotely credible.
You know everyone talks about job creators, but I think not enough is said about small-business creators. The fastest growing small business type in the country has got to be individual ridesharing businesses, and we have Uber to thank for this explosion of small business growth. So many people coming to America can start up their own successful business immediately upon arrival, d(r)iving right into the American Dream, which is served up fast and fresh by the best small-business creators in the world.
|
Calling Uber drivers "small business owners" has to be one of the dumber things i have read so far.
Uber is a scam that only works because it uses a loophole so uber drivers can ignore regulations/laws normal Taxi drivers need to follow, this is the only reason its cheaper and thats also why its illegal or before the courts in many countries.
|
Uber is everything wrong with silicon valley packaged neatly into a shitty app.
Sick piece of satire though lol
|
On the other hand, Uber vastly improves mobility choices in cities vs the previous status quo. The way taxis are operating in most countries is vastly more perverse than what Uber is doing.
|
Generally expected when taxis operating line is so much higher. Whoda thunkit that a taxi might charge more when they have to generally pay through the nose for special licenses, generally taxed for transportation etc, provide the vehicles themselves instead of ripping off the drivers.
Not that taxis are great, but be real, one side is blatantly cheating the system and outright being caught pushing the limits of bribery. I find it hard to think uber is anything more then a modern version of strip mining. Only instead of diamonds and metal they take, it's transportation.
|
United States24682 Posts
I just paid over 11 dollars for a 1.75 mile Uber x ride to the airport. Is that even cheaper than hailing a cab? The reason why I used uber was that I ordered a driver to my front door in five minutes flat, with no prior planning. Cabs don’t provide that service typically.
|
Canada11350 Posts
There's got to be some middle ground between complete Wild West with Uber and the absolute chokehold that exists now. Supply of taxis is artificially choked by government, supposedly as a sort of quality control, but one wonder exactly what one is buying at such crazy costs. New York taxi medallions cost something like +$200,000 cash, or $275,000 (bring $100,000) but some have sold for +$300,000, and in a 2011 article I read, $1M. That is horribly distorted!
I guess you are guaranteeing a decent wage for taxi drivers for a time by making taxi license a scarce commodity, but you are guaranteeing a service that will eventually die as it prices itself out of the market. The 2011, article suggested that even dealing with the medallion cost, the government needed to set rates so that customers weren't forced to haggle prices everytime they thumbed down a taxi on the side of the street- one set rate for all was required, but it seems to me with the sort of app Uber developed, that sort of concern falls by the wayside?
I don't know- taxis are so expensive that it's not actually even something I consider as an option, so I'm pretty sympathetic to huge innovation that improves mobility for a significantly lower cost. If there's a middle solution, I hope the middleground swings towards the Uber side rather than the inert status quo, which is just awful.
|
I think that this is one of the many scenarios where innovation will inevitably come first, but my point is that it's hardly a fair playing field.
In all honesty if uber wasn't dramatically cheaper it would be embarrassing.
We're just sharing a ride bro! is a nice excuse to dodge 250k of fees presumably designed to go towards road maintenance etc. Made worse when you look at the amount of money an uber driver actually gets after maintenance fees. Suddenly working at exploitative places like Subway look fantastic, and wouldn't a homegrown industry be even better?
Actually this is one of those things I find quite ironic, typically more conservatively leaning individuals who usually vote for smaller taxes etc will defend taxis over what uber is doing, yet people who normally lean towards the left end of the spectrum will use uber, who like all silicon valley companies are notorious for their lack of taxation paid - a new look at a limousine liberal.
|
On January 10 2018 14:54 mozoku wrote:
Even if you want to redistribute wealth/income, it takes about 5 minutes of thinking about the inefficiencies of price controls in a competitive market to realize that raising the minimum wage is a pretty terrible way to do it.
Most minimum wage employees are (or were) primarily in retail, manufacturing, and food service. Good luck arguing those industries are taking in excess profits in the current economy.
It also takes 5 minutes to realise that retails aren't just going to roll over and die. Raising minimum wages increases prices, but it also increases spendings, which is an economical benefit to everyone (or, as the republicans love to say: Gets the economy going). It's literally a winwin which have been thoroughly studied and proven.
But of course when you live in a society which doesn't care about things like "scientific studies" or "evidence based" it gets a lot more difficult to convince people of this.
|
There must be a point where the minimum wage has to settle, like you couldn't just arbitrarily make a minimum wage $500 an hour, businesses would die. Where does it end?
Also, why do people insist on shitting on America for it's scientific capabilities when it's produced more rigorous science then all the rest of the modern world combined many times over? Why the elitism?
Like people don't just take a shit on your country for no reason. Would you like me too in the same condescending manner?
|
The taxi market is overregulated and artificially restricted because that's in the taxi industry's interest. Limiting competition benefits the incumbents and in almost all markets I know the taxis have lobbied political power to make it so. Therefure arguing that 'Uber isn't playing fair' is nonsense - they're not playing fair by clearly unfair rules.
Also, the medallion type systems in most markets end up creating car operating businesses that end up hiring drivers for much the same conditions as Uber.
EDIT: On the minimum wage, the academic work really does not tend in favor of either side. It does evidence a trade-off however.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
