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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9617

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
January 01 2018 21:29 GMT
#192321
On January 02 2018 06:26 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

I don't agree with the root of what you're saying, even though I agree that the rich and well-connected enjoy too much power and influence in society. Not every business can afford to have lobbyists reigning in the regulatory state (and crafting favorable regulations) in DC.

I'm still typing in a free and open internet. I will be watching closely to see if internet providers behave as monopolies to critically throttle access to sites, rather than provide faster pipelines for a premium. I think there's value in some facets summed up in "net neutrality," but I'm also tired of this stupid backlash that act like tyranny is inevitable now. Some transparency in reporting backroom deals is merited. I hope my representatives draft and present legislation to that effect soon. If Netflix pays $13bil to Verizon to give faster data transfer speeds to their service, I'd like Verizon customers and the public at large to know about it. I have wariness that's not quite up to fear.

In all, I don't trust the government to be fair and honest arbitrators of internet provider abuse. I want the letter of the law to spell out what is and isn't abuse.

That ship has already sailed. American internet is slow and expensive.
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-02 03:01:36
January 01 2018 21:39 GMT
#192322
I guess my prognosis for 2018 was a tad pessimistic or even nihilistic, but I strongly believe that the current situation won't get better any time soon. It's not all downhill from here but it's better to be prepared than disappointed
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
January 01 2018 21:39 GMT
#192323
Eh, give it about 11 months.
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
January 01 2018 21:45 GMT
#192324
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
Show nested quote +
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

Good Lord, I would love to know how you arrived at this conclusion.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 01 2018 21:49 GMT
#192325
The arrival of the new year in California brought with it broad legalization of marijuana, a much-anticipated change that comes two decades after the state was the first to allow pot for medical use.

The US’s most populous state joins a growing list of other states, and the nation’s capital, where so-called recreational marijuana is permitted even though the federal government continues to classify pot as a controlled substance, like heroin and LSD.

Pot is now legal in California for adults 21 and older, and individuals can grow up to six plants and possess as much as an ounce of the drug.

But finding a retail outlet to buy non-medical pot in California won’t be easy, at least initially. Only about 90 businesses received state licenses to open on New Year’s Day. They are concentrated in San Diego, Santa Cruz, the San Francisco Bay Area and the Palm Springs area.

Los Angeles and San Francisco are among the many cities where recreational pot will not be available right away because local regulations were not approved in time to start issuing city licenses needed to get state permits. Meanwhile, Fresno, Bakersfield and Riverside are among the communities that have adopted laws forbidding recreational marijuana sales.

Just after midnight, some Californians were raising blunts instead of champagne glasses.

Johnny Hernandez, a tattoo artist from Modesto, celebrated New Year’s Eve by smoking “Happy New Year blunts” with his cousins.

“This is something we’ve all been waiting for,” he said. “It is something that can help so many people and there’s no reason why we should not be sharing that.”

Hernandez said he hoped the legalization of recreational marijuana would help alleviate the remaining stigma some still believe surrounds marijuana use.

“People might actually realize weed isn’t bad. It helps a lot of people,” he said.

For those who worked for this day, the shift also offered joyful relief.

“We’re thrilled,” said Khalil Moutawakkil, founder of KindPeoples, which grows and sells weed in Santa Cruz. “We can talk about the good, the bad and the ugly of the specific regulations, but at the end of the day it’s a giant step forward, and we’ll have to work out the kinks as we go.”

The state banned “loco-weed” in 1913, according to a history by the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws, the pot advocacy group known as NORML. The first attempt to undo that by voter initiative in 1972 failed, but three years later felony possession of less than an ounce was downgraded to a misdemeanor.

In 1996, over the objections of law enforcement, President Clinton’s drug tsar and three former presidents, California voters approved marijuana for medicinal purposes. Twenty years later, voters approved legal recreational use and gave the state a year to write regulations for a legal market that would open in 2018.

Today, 29 states have adopted medical marijuana laws. In 2012, Colorado and Washington became the first states to legalize recreational marijuana. Since then, five more states have passed recreational marijuana laws, including Massachusetts, where retail sales are scheduled to begin in July.

Even with other states as models, the next year is expected to be a bumpy one in California as more shops open and more stringent regulations take effect on the strains known as Sweet Skunk, Trainwreck and Russian Assassin.

The California Police Chiefs Association, which opposed the 2016 ballot measure, remains concerned about stoned drivers, the risk to young people and the cost of policing the new rules in addition to an existing black market.

“There’s going to be a public health cost and a public safety cost enforcing these new laws and regulations,” said Jonathan Feldman, a legislative advocate for the chiefs. “It remains to be seen if this can balance itself out.”

At first, pot shops will be able to sell marijuana harvested without full regulatory controls. But eventually, the state will require extensive testing for potency, pesticides and other contaminants. A program to track all pot from seed to sale will be phased in, along with other protections such as childproof containers.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 01 2018 23:01 GMT
#192326
On January 02 2018 06:29 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2018 06:26 Danglars wrote:
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

I don't agree with the root of what you're saying, even though I agree that the rich and well-connected enjoy too much power and influence in society. Not every business can afford to have lobbyists reigning in the regulatory state (and crafting favorable regulations) in DC.

I'm still typing in a free and open internet. I will be watching closely to see if internet providers behave as monopolies to critically throttle access to sites, rather than provide faster pipelines for a premium. I think there's value in some facets summed up in "net neutrality," but I'm also tired of this stupid backlash that act like tyranny is inevitable now. Some transparency in reporting backroom deals is merited. I hope my representatives draft and present legislation to that effect soon. If Netflix pays $13bil to Verizon to give faster data transfer speeds to their service, I'd like Verizon customers and the public at large to know about it. I have wariness that's not quite up to fear.

In all, I don't trust the government to be fair and honest arbitrators of internet provider abuse. I want the letter of the law to spell out what is and isn't abuse.

That ship has already sailed. American internet is slow and expensive.

I have to make a distinction. The posited future is one where internet access is worse than it was prior to Obama-era net neutrality rules from the FCC. If you think it's already shit, I'm not going to tell you it's always been awesome.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 01 2018 23:03 GMT
#192327
On January 02 2018 06:39 thePunGun wrote:
I guess my prognosis for 2018 was a tad pessimistic or even nihilistic, but I strongly believe that the current situation won't get better any time soon. It's not all down hill from here but it's better to be prepared than disappointed

I was predicting misery under Hillary. I thought she was a shoe-in. I now have reason for optimism.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8281 Posts
January 02 2018 00:04 GMT
#192328
On January 02 2018 06:45 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

Good Lord, I would love to know how you arrived at this conclusion.


Right now? I'd say: "The news", "any reasonable political article made the previous year", or "literally having eyes".
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
January 02 2018 00:33 GMT
#192329
On January 02 2018 09:04 Excludos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2018 06:45 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

Good Lord, I would love to know how you arrived at this conclusion.


Right now? I'd say: "The news", "any reasonable political article made the previous year", or "literally having eyes".

So the ~20 year decline of the middle class is the result of Trump's tax plan that went into effect today?

I'm questioning how the eroding middle class is the result of any uniquely US government policy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-02 01:22:13
January 02 2018 01:20 GMT
#192330
@iamthedave:
there isn't compromise because at least one (maybe two) of the parties don't want compromise. compromise cannot be done unless both parties agree to it.

and you should look to the deeper layers, to see WHY american media is more polarized. always more layers to the onion (well, not really, but a nice saying).

mostly just commenting/responding; were there any of the questions you posed on the last page that you actually need more specific answers to?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12619 Posts
January 02 2018 03:26 GMT
#192331
On January 02 2018 09:33 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2018 09:04 Excludos wrote:
On January 02 2018 06:45 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

Good Lord, I would love to know how you arrived at this conclusion.


Right now? I'd say: "The news", "any reasonable political article made the previous year", or "literally having eyes".

So the ~20 year decline of the middle class is the result of Trump's tax plan that went into effect today?

I'm questioning how the eroding middle class is the result of any uniquely US government policy.


He obviously doesn't think it's just Trump.
No will to live, no wish to die
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-02 04:17:51
January 02 2018 04:15 GMT
#192332
On January 02 2018 12:26 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2018 09:33 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 09:04 Excludos wrote:
On January 02 2018 06:45 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

Good Lord, I would love to know how you arrived at this conclusion.


Right now? I'd say: "The news", "any reasonable political article made the previous year", or "literally having eyes".

So the ~20 year decline of the middle class is the result of Trump's tax plan that went into effect today?

I'm questioning how the eroding middle class is the result of any uniquely US government policy.


He obviously doesn't think it's just Trump.

I didn't limit the pool of potential responses to Trump either. I only brought up Trump because Excludos was referring to the present.

I'd like to hear how he thinks there's any unique US government policies that are responsible for the erosion (bifurcation really) of the middle class.

But he went even farther than that and called it the goal of the US government. That's gotta be some argument.
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4946 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-02 04:44:22
January 02 2018 04:42 GMT
#192333
On January 02 2018 13:15 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2018 12:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On January 02 2018 09:33 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 09:04 Excludos wrote:
On January 02 2018 06:45 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

Good Lord, I would love to know how you arrived at this conclusion.


Right now? I'd say: "The news", "any reasonable political article made the previous year", or "literally having eyes".

So the ~20 year decline of the middle class is the result of Trump's tax plan that went into effect today?

I'm questioning how the eroding middle class is the result of any uniquely US government policy.


He obviously doesn't think it's just Trump.

I didn't limit the pool of potential responses to Trump either. I only brought up Trump because Excludos was referring to the present.

I'd like to hear how he thinks there's any unique US government policies that are responsible for the erosion (bifurcation really) of the middle class.

But he went even farther than that and called it the goal of the US government. That's gotta be some argument.


It's not the direct goal of the government per se, but it is the goal of the lobbyists et al who have gotten us here. Democracy is a convenient scapegoat for the fact that the ones with money control everything, and as such steer everything toward making it even easier for those with money to stay on top and screw everyone else.

EDIT: This seems less of an argument than a statement like "2+2=4". It's so obvious I'm not sure how to respond if someone disagrees.
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 02 2018 05:01 GMT
#192334
President Donald Trump appeared to know little, if anything, about international trade deals during an exchange with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in March this year. White House officials reportedly characterized the talk as “humiliating.”

The Republican Trump asked Merkel about creating a new, bilateral trade deal between Germany and the U.S., even though, as a member of the European Union, Germany cannot strike such a deal without the other 27 members of the union, according to The New York Times.

Merkel was afraid to fully correct Trump since White House aides told German officials the four-term chancellor had been condescending to Trump during one of their first phone calls.

Instead, Merkel eased into an explanation that an agreement could be reached in concert with the EU.

“So it could be bilateral?” Trump asked Merkel, who nodded, according to those in the meeting. Trump responded: “That’s great.”

Trump then turned to Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross and said: “Wilbur, we’ll negotiate a bilateral trade deal with Europe.”

German officials were reportedly relieved that no incident occurred, but White House officials told The Times they saw the exchange as “humiliating.”

Before they sat down, Trump claimed not to have heard photographers’ requests for he and Merkel to shake hands, a terse moment captured on video that later was used as an example of Trump’s attitude toward dealing with Europe altogether.

Three months later at a campaign rally, Merkel was candid about Europeans needing to rely on one another rather than other allies.

“We Europeans truly have to take our fate into our own hands—naturally in friendship with the United States of America, in friendship with Great Britain, as good neighbors with whoever, also with Russia and other countries,” she said.

Merkel added: “But we have to know that we Europeans must fight for our own future and destiny.”

Crying “America First,” Trump’s takes on foreign policy and his administration’s work abroad have received vast criticism throughout his first year in office. He challenged members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to pay their “fair share” of defense spending and routinely exchanged ominous threats of “fire” and war with North Korea’s Kim Jong Un–going so far as to call the leader “rocket man” at the United Nations General Assembly.

Trump also pulled the U.S. out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership and the Paris climate accord meant to combat global warming. Most recently, he recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital–much to the dismay of the rest of the Middle East.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
January 02 2018 05:25 GMT
#192335
Thank goodness Trump didn't have to resort to a unilateral trade deal!
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
January 02 2018 05:27 GMT
#192336
On January 02 2018 13:42 mierin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2018 13:15 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 12:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On January 02 2018 09:33 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 09:04 Excludos wrote:
On January 02 2018 06:45 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

Good Lord, I would love to know how you arrived at this conclusion.


Right now? I'd say: "The news", "any reasonable political article made the previous year", or "literally having eyes".

So the ~20 year decline of the middle class is the result of Trump's tax plan that went into effect today?

I'm questioning how the eroding middle class is the result of any uniquely US government policy.


He obviously doesn't think it's just Trump.

I didn't limit the pool of potential responses to Trump either. I only brought up Trump because Excludos was referring to the present.

I'd like to hear how he thinks there's any unique US government policies that are responsible for the erosion (bifurcation really) of the middle class.

But he went even farther than that and called it the goal of the US government. That's gotta be some argument.


It's not the direct goal of the government per se, but it is the goal of the lobbyists et al who have gotten us here. Democracy is a convenient scapegoat for the fact that the ones with money control everything, and as such steer everything toward making it even easier for those with money to stay on top and screw everyone else.

EDIT: This seems less of an argument than a statement like "2+2=4". It's so obvious I'm not sure how to respond if someone disagrees.

Great. Since it's so ubiquitous, you or someone else should be able to easily provide me with a list of government policies that have eroded the middle class. Looking forward to seeing it.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
January 02 2018 07:08 GMT
#192337
On January 02 2018 14:27 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2018 13:42 mierin wrote:
On January 02 2018 13:15 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 12:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On January 02 2018 09:33 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 09:04 Excludos wrote:
On January 02 2018 06:45 mozoku wrote:
On January 02 2018 04:24 thePunGun wrote:
He also missed the thread's existence before Trump-Clinton (where leftists and liberals were more inclined to be more generous).

The sad thing is that neither conservatives nor liberals are smart enough to see through the bullshit that is US politics nowadays. I guess that's what living in an echo chamber does to you...
To me it seems the only goal of the US government is to destroy the middle class and keep the poor and uneducated divided so the rich can remain in charge until this whole system collapses.
Because no economy can survive without a middle class and with net neutrality gone I fear for the worst to be honest.
Now the media will feed their propaganda unchallenged by small independent news outlets.
The only thing, that will remain of the free voice of the internet will be to quote Simon and Garfunkle: the sound of silence....

Good Lord, I would love to know how you arrived at this conclusion.


Right now? I'd say: "The news", "any reasonable political article made the previous year", or "literally having eyes".

So the ~20 year decline of the middle class is the result of Trump's tax plan that went into effect today?

I'm questioning how the eroding middle class is the result of any uniquely US government policy.


He obviously doesn't think it's just Trump.

I didn't limit the pool of potential responses to Trump either. I only brought up Trump because Excludos was referring to the present.

I'd like to hear how he thinks there's any unique US government policies that are responsible for the erosion (bifurcation really) of the middle class.

But he went even farther than that and called it the goal of the US government. That's gotta be some argument.


It's not the direct goal of the government per se, but it is the goal of the lobbyists et al who have gotten us here. Democracy is a convenient scapegoat for the fact that the ones with money control everything, and as such steer everything toward making it even easier for those with money to stay on top and screw everyone else.

EDIT: This seems less of an argument than a statement like "2+2=4". It's so obvious I'm not sure how to respond if someone disagrees.

Great. Since it's so ubiquitous, you or someone else should be able to easily provide me with a list of government policies that have eroded the middle class. Looking forward to seeing it.


The middle class has been steadily eroding for decades.

What is it you think the government is/does and who do you think dominates influencing their votes/policy?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6344 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-02 11:20:45
January 02 2018 11:11 GMT
#192338
On January 01 2018 19:26 iamthedave wrote:
While I understand Danglars is a controversial figure in this thread, I'm sort of baffled by the series of posts in the last few pages. Sure, maybe he follows an Australian shit heel journalist. So what? This seems the definition of shoot the messenger.

The protests in Iran, irrespective of the lady's intent, seem newsworthy and worth highlighting. It's a (rare) sign of positive change in the Middle East that will surely be good for all of us in the long run? Right?

As to the general topic right now; it's difficult to really parse our nations (UK and US in particular) history with actions in the MIddle East. For my own part I believe most actions were taken with good intent but ended horribly, and are mostly the result of us trying to influence the politics of a region whose politics we don't really understand because they're based on a kind of thinking we haven't employed over here... maybe ever. They are different folk over there, and while it's easy to criticise from the armchair, I can't imagine what those in power go through when an advisor comes to them with some issue from the Middle East and says 'Mr President/Prime Minister, we have to do something about this. What's the plan?'

Just hope one day we can learn from all the disasters and use the knowledge either to know when not to get involved, or to do the right thing if we do.

Because turning Iran into a jigsaw of factions all in perpetual conflict with each other while foriegn aircraft bomb its population centers like in Libya, Syria, Iraq and Yemen is good for democracy? Right?

Well the protests are fizzling out anyway. edit: The sockpuppet and shill accounts are getting hilarious to read

“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
Ciaus_Dronu
Profile Joined June 2017
South Africa1848 Posts
January 02 2018 12:01 GMT
#192339
@mozoku:
This is kinda "the sky is blue" of American politics, but I'll humor you.

It's very well known that the middle class itself has suffered since around the 1980's, at least in terms of income. That's everywhere, and every damn newspaper and research center has something on it. Here's the Centre on Budget and Policy Priorities' nice little graphic:

[image loading]

Attributing policy to economic change is not trivial, but it is important to note that Reagan came into power right at the splitting point: just after 1980.
Once of the first major events of his presidency was his handling of a massive strike. And by handling, I mean he told the workers to go **** themselves. This very strong anti-labour action sent a strong message - unions and organised workers no longer had any real bargaining power as of then.

Democracynow analysis of the Patco strike

NYTimes op-ed on Patco Strike

While both pieces have a very different view of Reagan's personal ideals, there's no disagreement in the effect of Reagan's decisions regarding unions. It would not be at all surprising to see income disparity after middle and working class people lost their negotiating power, and that is exactly what happened.

The myriad of tax cuts and opposition to programs like proper healthcare haven't helped at all, but effectively giving all power to decide wages and salaries to those who already have economic power, is IMO far and away the biggest action the Republican establishment has taken to screw the middle class over.

It's important to note that a lot of the problem is what the government hasn't done. Companies already have legal teams, money and time. They don't need their interests to be quite as carefully looked after. Corporate welfare is a sick joke. However their average worker most certainly does not have these things, so in order to maintain a semblance of balance, to have the interests of the middle class protected, government needs to pro-actively support them. They need to ensure unions have some bite and to spend on programs like healthcare. This is why progressives, by and large, don't have very good opinions of libertarian viewpoints. It's why they outright despise the Republican party, because their deliberate refusal to give workers any negotiating power, and their deliberate obstructionism with regards to healthcare and social spending, is as good as telling the average citizen to get ****ed and accept slave wages when their employer decides they want to have a bit more money.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 02 2018 13:00 GMT
#192340
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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