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United States41984 Posts
On November 28 2017 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 14:06 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
It's a very dangerous thing to declare there is only one opinion left to have on the situation, and to ruin personal friendships over politics. I still think he's worthy of support on some issues and opposition on others. He has helpfully made great progress bringing attention to some of society's discarded topics (in ways where polite discourse just gets dismissed, you racist bigots). If you declare there is no reason to support him whatsoever and will politicize your interpersonal friendships, there's less reason to hope for a period of national healing and unity in the future. Talk to the other side and don't rely on the right or left's propaganda to color your judgments. It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech. You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:On November 28 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
The problem is that you assume folks like myself are "value(ing) friendships so lightly." That isn't the case. How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics. You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. No one is "missing" anything concerning why Trump won. You're at least a year late to this discussion. Rural white America is desperately clinging to "the good old days" where they could work in an outdated or obsolete economy and perpetuate a casually xenophobic and misogynistic culture and everyone was OK with it (insofar as no one bothered to do anything about it). Now society is pushing back, forcing conservatives to actually "play fair" on the socioeconomic front, and conservatives are losing their mind and think that losing the intrinsic privileges that they had at the expense of women, minorities, LGBTQ, etc. is the same as systemic oppression. It's the ultimate hypocrisy when they love to throw out lines about "special snowflakes" and whatnot. Does this explain why so many people turn to Trump? Yes. Does it mean they're right or that it's ethically justified? Hell no.
The irony being that they're embracing "snowflake" from Fight Club's critique of male fragility without understanding that you weren't meant to root for Tyler Durden's terrorist group.
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What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react?
I still feel like this is a huge overstatement. Like yeah it happened to some people, but it's hardly the deciding narrative for the vast majority of people who voted Trump. The overwhelming vast majority of people who would have voted Republican no matter what and did so despite Trump being Trump and many of them are quite well off.
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On November 28 2017 04:37 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech.
You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:On November 28 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
The problem is that you assume folks like myself are "value(ing) friendships so lightly." That isn't the case. How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics. You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. No one is "missing" anything concerning why Trump won. You're at least a year late to this discussion. Rural white America is desperately clinging to "the good old days" where they could work in an outdated or obsolete economy and perpetuate a casually xenophobic and misogynistic culture and everyone was OK with it (insofar as no one bothered to do anything about it). Now society is pushing back, forcing conservatives to actually "play fair" on the socioeconomic front, and conservatives are losing their mind and think that losing the intrinsic privileges that they had at the expense of women, minorities, LGBTQ, etc. is the same as systemic oppression. It's the ultimate hypocrisy when they love to throw out lines about "special snowflakes" and whatnot. Does this explain why so many people turn to Trump? Yes. Does it mean they're right or that it's ethically justified? Hell no. The irony being that they're embracing "snowflake" from Fight Club's critique of male fragility without understanding that you weren't meant to root for Tyler Durden's terrorist group.
That movie gets harder and harder to watch every year. The story about the 20 year old guy showing it to his grandfather, saying the movie really spoke to his generation. The grandfather was stunned and told his 20 year old grand kid, “That is how they turned young men like you into Nazis.”
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On November 28 2017 04:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 14:06 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
It's a very dangerous thing to declare there is only one opinion left to have on the situation, and to ruin personal friendships over politics. I still think he's worthy of support on some issues and opposition on others. He has helpfully made great progress bringing attention to some of society's discarded topics (in ways where polite discourse just gets dismissed, you racist bigots). If you declare there is no reason to support him whatsoever and will politicize your interpersonal friendships, there's less reason to hope for a period of national healing and unity in the future. Talk to the other side and don't rely on the right or left's propaganda to color your judgments. It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech. You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? With apologies to Danglars for the comparison I'm about to make, extreme antisemitism in Germany in the 30s was a reaction to the Great Depression and the defeat in the Great War. The latent root existed, but it was a reaction to changing economic and social conditions that allowed it to be whipped into the component of a political ideology. I agree that the rise of white male identity politics has a lot to do with the economic marginalization of certain demographics, but I don't know that the why necessarily matters. The fact remains that we're experiencing a backlash against civil rights and all groups that benefited from them. We have Sessions, who is in my opinion undeniably a white supremacist, heading the Justice Department and a President telling the police to rough up thugs. There is an open nostalgia for the "good old days" of the 1950s within the political movement as a whole. You can say the root cause is globalization (although I'd argue that economic change was inevitable and overall positive) while still acknowledging the problem.
The reason it matters because living in an area filled with poverty, heroin addiction, and outsourcing is miserable. The thugs being appointed by Trump and the destruction of political order is horrible and there is no question that these people who passionately backed Trump are shooting themselves in the foot (maybe the head) but when no one has bothered to reach out to a huge portion of the American electorate for such a long time, what do people expect? I mean, there weren't even any safety nets or a welfare state to at least compensate those who were left behind
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One look at participation rates in local elections and the "these poor white folk were left behind by the government" spiel starts to look a lot less convincing. Sure, much of rural America gets short shrifted by government, but the why and how of that phenomena neither justifies Trumpism nor explains it.
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United States41984 Posts
On November 28 2017 04:41 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:31 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech.
You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? With apologies to Danglars for the comparison I'm about to make, extreme antisemitism in Germany in the 30s was a reaction to the Great Depression and the defeat in the Great War. The latent root existed, but it was a reaction to changing economic and social conditions that allowed it to be whipped into the component of a political ideology. I agree that the rise of white male identity politics has a lot to do with the economic marginalization of certain demographics, but I don't know that the why necessarily matters. The fact remains that we're experiencing a backlash against civil rights and all groups that benefited from them. We have Sessions, who is in my opinion undeniably a white supremacist, heading the Justice Department and a President telling the police to rough up thugs. There is an open nostalgia for the "good old days" of the 1950s within the political movement as a whole. You can say the root cause is globalization (although I'd argue that economic change was inevitable and overall positive) while still acknowledging the problem. The reason it matters because living in an area filled with poverty, heroin addiction, and outsourcing is miserable. The thugs being appointed by Trump and the destruction of political order is horrible and there is no question that these people who passionately backed Trump are shooting themselves in the foot (maybe the head) but when no one has bothered to reach out to a huge portion of the American electorate for such a long time, what do people expect? I mean, there weren't even any safety nets or a welfare state to at least compensate those who were left behind
If your argument is "they're miserable and that's why they're lashing out at minorities" then we still have two problems, the conditions that made them miserable and the scapegoating of the minorities. We can't twist that until racism is no longer a component.
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On November 28 2017 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 14:06 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
It's a very dangerous thing to declare there is only one opinion left to have on the situation, and to ruin personal friendships over politics. I still think he's worthy of support on some issues and opposition on others. He has helpfully made great progress bringing attention to some of society's discarded topics (in ways where polite discourse just gets dismissed, you racist bigots). If you declare there is no reason to support him whatsoever and will politicize your interpersonal friendships, there's less reason to hope for a period of national healing and unity in the future. Talk to the other side and don't rely on the right or left's propaganda to color your judgments. It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech. You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:On November 28 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
The problem is that you assume folks like myself are "value(ing) friendships so lightly." That isn't the case. How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics. You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. No one is "missing" anything concerning why Trump won. You're at least a year late to this discussion. Rural white America is desperately clinging to "the good old days" where they could work in an outdated or obsolete economy and perpetuate a casually xenophobic and misogynistic culture and everyone was OK with it (insofar as no one bothered to do anything about it). Now society is pushing back, forcing conservatives to actually "play fair" on the socioeconomic front, and conservatives are losing their mind and think that losing the intrinsic privileges that they had at the expense of women, minorities, LGBTQ, etc. is the same as systemic oppression. It's the ultimate hypocrisy when they love to throw out lines about "special snowflakes" and whatnot. Does this explain why so many people turn to Trump? Yes. Does it mean they're right or that it's ethically justified? Hell no. Show nested quote +You have to admit, there are tons of cases of people misusing the word racism, exaggerating oppression or bigotry in contemporary discussions about identity. Look at all the fake reports of hate crimes and discrimination, especially after Trump's election. Back in the 2000s and before, whenever there was a hate crime, it usually was a hate crime. But now, whenever those stories come up, we have to carefully verify it because so many of them are outright fake. "tons of cases"? No. This is just like that crap where people try to highlight fake rape accusations to discredit the whole movement. The only thing that's going on is that conservative news outlets are going insane and are highlighting the slightest fabrications to try to say, "SEE?! IT'S ALL FAKE!!!!" Are there cases of exaggerations or false claims concerning racism, sexism, etc.? Absolutely. Anywhere near as much as conservatives pretend it is? Fuck no. I never see conservatives owning up to all of the false claims, dangerous rhetoric, or blatant sexism/racism/xenophobia coming from their side. They try to marginalize it while exaggerating the negatives on the left in an attempt to equivocate them ("there's so much bad over there you're not paying attention to! It's just as bad as ours, so pay more attention to that and less to ours!"). It's ethically disgusting and shameful.
At least in the good old days, people's living standards were pretty good at least. And if by even leveling field, you mean deindustrialization, then that's some heartlessness that would only be said by free market fundamentalists.
And I am not trying to discredit the entire movement, I want to stress that the accountability for people claiming oppression in discussions about privilege is really bad. It's so bad that the only people willing to hold them accountable for the people who want to discredit the entire movement, and even destroy all the positive gains from socially progressive ideas.
For example, do false rape accusations happen? Yes. Do they happen anywhere near as much people on the right want to believe? Absolutely not Do MRAs lie and try make it more difficult for women who have faced sexual violence to seek help? No question about that. But when there are false accusations or false claims of even sexual harassment, is the track record of feminists to hold these people accountable very good? Not at all.
Same thing goes for cases of racism as well.
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On November 28 2017 04:41 Shiragaku wrote:
I mean, there weren't even any safety nets or a welfare state to at least compensate those who were left behind
The lack of such safety nets is in large part due to a party that consistently opposes and obstructs their implementation, while conning these same people into voting for them every election under the guise of protecting their social/cultural/religious traditions against evil black and brown people. At some point our capacity for sympathy dries up.
Good on them for finally realizing how morally bankrupt the mainstream Republican party is, but it's a couple decades too late, and they're still getting conned by the same tricks under a new name anyway.
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On November 28 2017 04:47 farvacola wrote:
One look at participation rates in local elections and the "these poor white folk were left behind by the government" spiel starts to look a lot less convincing. Sure, much of rural America gets short shrifted by government, but the why and how of that phenomena neither justifies Trumpism nor explains it.
the poor not-white people in rural or urban decay america largely voted dems still, even when the white folks flipped.
:thinking:
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United States41984 Posts
On November 28 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:37 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance?
I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:
[quote]
How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics. You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. No one is "missing" anything concerning why Trump won. You're at least a year late to this discussion. Rural white America is desperately clinging to "the good old days" where they could work in an outdated or obsolete economy and perpetuate a casually xenophobic and misogynistic culture and everyone was OK with it (insofar as no one bothered to do anything about it). Now society is pushing back, forcing conservatives to actually "play fair" on the socioeconomic front, and conservatives are losing their mind and think that losing the intrinsic privileges that they had at the expense of women, minorities, LGBTQ, etc. is the same as systemic oppression. It's the ultimate hypocrisy when they love to throw out lines about "special snowflakes" and whatnot. Does this explain why so many people turn to Trump? Yes. Does it mean they're right or that it's ethically justified? Hell no. The irony being that they're embracing "snowflake" from Fight Club's critique of male fragility without understanding that you weren't meant to root for Tyler Durden's terrorist group. That movie gets harder and harder to watch every year. The story about the 20 year old guy showing it to his grandfather, saying the movie really spoke to his generation. The grandfather was stunned and told his 20 year old grand kid, “That is how they turned young men like you into Nazis.”
It's why we need to keep some liberal arts majors around. They can let the STEM folks know when a movie has subtext and is actually deconstructing and critiquing an idea.
On a completely tangential note, the Matrix being a metaphor for living as a trans person blew my mind.
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On November 28 2017 04:47 farvacola wrote:
One look at participation rates in local elections and the "these poor white folk were left behind by the government" spiel starts to look a lot less convincing. Sure, much of rural America gets short shrifted by government, but the why and how of that phenomena neither justifies Trumpism nor explains it.
There is definitely a correlation between Trump and poor whites. Remember back in 2012 when Trump was a joke? And there is no way that he could have even considered running as a Republican pre-2008 as well
On November 28 2017 04:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:41 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 04:31 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance?
I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? With apologies to Danglars for the comparison I'm about to make, extreme antisemitism in Germany in the 30s was a reaction to the Great Depression and the defeat in the Great War. The latent root existed, but it was a reaction to changing economic and social conditions that allowed it to be whipped into the component of a political ideology. I agree that the rise of white male identity politics has a lot to do with the economic marginalization of certain demographics, but I don't know that the why necessarily matters. The fact remains that we're experiencing a backlash against civil rights and all groups that benefited from them. We have Sessions, who is in my opinion undeniably a white supremacist, heading the Justice Department and a President telling the police to rough up thugs. There is an open nostalgia for the "good old days" of the 1950s within the political movement as a whole. You can say the root cause is globalization (although I'd argue that economic change was inevitable and overall positive) while still acknowledging the problem. The reason it matters because living in an area filled with poverty, heroin addiction, and outsourcing is miserable. The thugs being appointed by Trump and the destruction of political order is horrible and there is no question that these people who passionately backed Trump are shooting themselves in the foot (maybe the head) but when no one has bothered to reach out to a huge portion of the American electorate for such a long time, what do people expect? I mean, there weren't even any safety nets or a welfare state to at least compensate those who were left behind If your argument is "they're miserable and that's why they're lashing out at minorities" then we still have two problems, the conditions that made them miserable and the scapegoating of the minorities. We can't twist that until racism is no longer a component.
Indeed, but its much easier to keep someone with backwards views at home and somewhat sane if they are living well versus if they are poor and angry. They would vote for standard conservatives like Romney or McCain and even Democrats like in the later half of the 20th century.
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On November 28 2017 00:49 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 00:41 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On November 28 2017 00:21 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 00:06 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On November 27 2017 23:45 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:23 Wulfey_LA wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 14:06 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 11:59 doomdonker wrote:On November 27 2017 11:05 LegalLord wrote:
Bummer to hear that from a columnist I actually think is pretty good. I don't think there's anything wrong with his statement. Its not a binary statement where if you don't support Trump, you support the Democratic Party. You can still support, say, Mike Pence or choose some other conservative politician. At this point, you're dumber than a sack of bricks if you STILL support Trump. We're talking about a man who clearly understands little about the world, who barely does his job, is obsessed with the media instead of America, doesn't give a shit about the people he specifically campaigned for, is flipflopping around what he campaigned for and is busy trying enrich himself and his family through the most powerful office in the world. If you look at all of this and still think "fake news", there's nothing to talk to you about because you're living in a different reality. He's an utter legislative failure whose only achievement is getting a SC appointed, despite having majorities in both the house and senate. Which wasn't even his success but rather McConnell pulling the strings. You can't even say that he's like Jimmy Carter either because Trump is objectively a terrible person. It's a very dangerous thing to declare there is only one opinion left to have on the situation, and to ruin personal friendships over politics. I still think he's worthy of support on some issues and opposition on others. He has helpfully made great progress bringing attention to some of society's discarded topics (in ways where polite discourse just gets dismissed, you racist bigots). If you declare there is no reason to support him whatsoever and will politicize your interpersonal friendships, there's less reason to hope for a period of national healing and unity in the future. Talk to the other side and don't rely on the right or left's propaganda to color your judgments. It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech. You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Non-exhaustive List of those responsible for national disunity: Liberals The Left Colleges The Media The Democrats The Swamp The Cities Ungrateful Minorities Black NFL Players The Intelligence Agencies Anyone living near the coasts Athiests Muslims Mexicans #NeverTrump Closet Trump supporters Elected Republican Legislators who can't pass the President's bills Exhaustive List of those who are upholding national unity and decency in this divisive times: President Trump Open, Proud, and Clapping Trump supporters It’s a trying political time and men and women of sense will debate on the issues and actions. Losers and trolls will continue to play tribal games and claim their opponents are racist douchebags. There’s still another team? Why, they must hate brown people or something! Surely the only logical thing to do is ruin friendships over politics! Yes, that’s the stuff! Maybe they aren't racist, but they openly and knowingly support and vote for someone who vocally is, and has shown time and again that racism will be prevalent in how they conduct themselves in a position of power. Maybe they don't hate people who can't afford healthcare, but they openly and knowingly support and vote for someone who is trying to create a system in which those people will suffer. Maybe they don't hate education and those who provide it, but... Imagine you are on Survivor. Your team is all voting to choose a team leader, and someone says "if you make me leader, I'll repeatedly kick the s*** out of Danglars, and make survivor great again!" and your friend passionately pipes up with "hell yeah I'll vote for this guy! He isn't like all the other team leaders who don't get things done!" How will you feel and react? If you'd be fine with that, then that's damn stupid and the trust and goodwill one associates with any degree of friendship is terribly misplaced. Trump voters, by and large, might not have voted for his blatant racism etc, but to give a massive and arguably undeserved benefit of the doubt, they just didn't care. If someone just doesn't care about the damage their political positions and support does to me, why the hell would I consider them a friend? The same argument extends to basic decency and having moral expectations of those you closely associate with in general. That ones on you, and society is the worse for it. That's the dumbest response I've ever received on a message board in my life. Which is saying a lot. Me - "I don't want to give my friendship to someone literally actively supporting the means to the end of millions of people dying od completely preventable issues in some Randian genocide." You - "OMG no that's a bad thing, you dividing society!1!!" Society is worse for Trump even running for president, let alone winning. Society is worse for millions of people supporting him without giving a damn for the consequences. Society is not worse because I wouldn't trust the moral judgement of such people enough to give them the trust or benefit of friendship. Maybe it’s easier to imagine a country like an episode of “Survivor” for you, but not for me. “Literally Hitler” is outplayed and “literally genocide” is at least as backwards of a means of debate. Go talk a little more to the other side and stop these fantasies where your life is run by politics.
You've yet to do a quick visit to the other side of any racism argument.
Also relevant:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 28 2017 04:56 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:47 farvacola wrote:
One look at participation rates in local elections and the "these poor white folk were left behind by the government" spiel starts to look a lot less convincing. Sure, much of rural America gets short shrifted by government, but the why and how of that phenomena neither justifies Trumpism nor explains it. There is definitely a correlation between Trump and poor whites. Remember back in 2012 when Trump was a joke? And there is no way that he could have even considered running as a Republican pre-2008 as well Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:48 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:41 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 04:31 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES.
There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? With apologies to Danglars for the comparison I'm about to make, extreme antisemitism in Germany in the 30s was a reaction to the Great Depression and the defeat in the Great War. The latent root existed, but it was a reaction to changing economic and social conditions that allowed it to be whipped into the component of a political ideology. I agree that the rise of white male identity politics has a lot to do with the economic marginalization of certain demographics, but I don't know that the why necessarily matters. The fact remains that we're experiencing a backlash against civil rights and all groups that benefited from them. We have Sessions, who is in my opinion undeniably a white supremacist, heading the Justice Department and a President telling the police to rough up thugs. There is an open nostalgia for the "good old days" of the 1950s within the political movement as a whole. You can say the root cause is globalization (although I'd argue that economic change was inevitable and overall positive) while still acknowledging the problem. The reason it matters because living in an area filled with poverty, heroin addiction, and outsourcing is miserable. The thugs being appointed by Trump and the destruction of political order is horrible and there is no question that these people who passionately backed Trump are shooting themselves in the foot (maybe the head) but when no one has bothered to reach out to a huge portion of the American electorate for such a long time, what do people expect? I mean, there weren't even any safety nets or a welfare state to at least compensate those who were left behind If your argument is "they're miserable and that's why they're lashing out at minorities" then we still have two problems, the conditions that made them miserable and the scapegoating of the minorities. We can't twist that until racism is no longer a component. Indeed, but its much easier to keep someone with backwards views at home and somewhat sane if they are living well versus if they are poor and angry. They would vote for standard conservatives like Romney or McCain and even Democrats like in the later half of the 20th century.
trump was willing to promise the moon (or a 'return to the good old days') while simultaneously scapegoating and pinning the blame on the dems and countries/ people from other countries. other politicians at least had a shred of honesty or operated under the idea that they needed to promise something they could deliver on to some degree.
trump is a conman though otoh i suppose he may actually believe what he spews - and meanwhile, he's willing to do things like gut the ACA, gut other social services and revamp the tax code in a way that further hurts those who he promised to make things better for. we'll see how things shake out.
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On November 28 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 04:37 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES.
There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine.
Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics.
You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. No one is "missing" anything concerning why Trump won. You're at least a year late to this discussion. Rural white America is desperately clinging to "the good old days" where they could work in an outdated or obsolete economy and perpetuate a casually xenophobic and misogynistic culture and everyone was OK with it (insofar as no one bothered to do anything about it). Now society is pushing back, forcing conservatives to actually "play fair" on the socioeconomic front, and conservatives are losing their mind and think that losing the intrinsic privileges that they had at the expense of women, minorities, LGBTQ, etc. is the same as systemic oppression. It's the ultimate hypocrisy when they love to throw out lines about "special snowflakes" and whatnot. Does this explain why so many people turn to Trump? Yes. Does it mean they're right or that it's ethically justified? Hell no. The irony being that they're embracing "snowflake" from Fight Club's critique of male fragility without understanding that you weren't meant to root for Tyler Durden's terrorist group. That movie gets harder and harder to watch every year. The story about the 20 year old guy showing it to his grandfather, saying the movie really spoke to his generation. The grandfather was stunned and told his 20 year old grand kid, “That is how they turned young men like you into Nazis.” It's why we need to keep some liberal arts majors around. They can let the STEM folks know when a movie has subtext and is actually deconstructing and critiquing an idea. On a completely tangential note, the Matrix being a metaphor for living as a trans person blew my mind.
Oh god, never heard that, have to see it again. But lots of dialogs make a lot of sense suddenly.
Gotta love the fact that the alt right is so “red pilled” though. The sweet, sweet irony.
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On November 28 2017 05:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 04:37 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:
[quote]
If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices.
Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community.
Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations.
But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game.
I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
You might actually persuade them to your side.
Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. No one is "missing" anything concerning why Trump won. You're at least a year late to this discussion. Rural white America is desperately clinging to "the good old days" where they could work in an outdated or obsolete economy and perpetuate a casually xenophobic and misogynistic culture and everyone was OK with it (insofar as no one bothered to do anything about it). Now society is pushing back, forcing conservatives to actually "play fair" on the socioeconomic front, and conservatives are losing their mind and think that losing the intrinsic privileges that they had at the expense of women, minorities, LGBTQ, etc. is the same as systemic oppression. It's the ultimate hypocrisy when they love to throw out lines about "special snowflakes" and whatnot. Does this explain why so many people turn to Trump? Yes. Does it mean they're right or that it's ethically justified? Hell no. The irony being that they're embracing "snowflake" from Fight Club's critique of male fragility without understanding that you weren't meant to root for Tyler Durden's terrorist group. That movie gets harder and harder to watch every year. The story about the 20 year old guy showing it to his grandfather, saying the movie really spoke to his generation. The grandfather was stunned and told his 20 year old grand kid, “That is how they turned young men like you into Nazis.” It's why we need to keep some liberal arts majors around. They can let the STEM folks know when a movie has subtext and is actually deconstructing and critiquing an idea. On a completely tangential note, the Matrix being a metaphor for living as a trans person blew my mind. Oh god, never heard that, have to see it again. But lots of dialogs make a lot of sense suddenly. Gotta love the fact that the alt right is so “red pilled” though. The sweet, sweet irony.
Even before that it started out ridiculous. Being red pilled, in the movie, involved listening to & trusting a woman.
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On November 28 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 04:37 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES.
There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine.
Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics.
You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. No one is "missing" anything concerning why Trump won. You're at least a year late to this discussion. Rural white America is desperately clinging to "the good old days" where they could work in an outdated or obsolete economy and perpetuate a casually xenophobic and misogynistic culture and everyone was OK with it (insofar as no one bothered to do anything about it). Now society is pushing back, forcing conservatives to actually "play fair" on the socioeconomic front, and conservatives are losing their mind and think that losing the intrinsic privileges that they had at the expense of women, minorities, LGBTQ, etc. is the same as systemic oppression. It's the ultimate hypocrisy when they love to throw out lines about "special snowflakes" and whatnot. Does this explain why so many people turn to Trump? Yes. Does it mean they're right or that it's ethically justified? Hell no. The irony being that they're embracing "snowflake" from Fight Club's critique of male fragility without understanding that you weren't meant to root for Tyler Durden's terrorist group. That movie gets harder and harder to watch every year. The story about the 20 year old guy showing it to his grandfather, saying the movie really spoke to his generation. The grandfather was stunned and told his 20 year old grand kid, “That is how they turned young men like you into Nazis.” It's why we need to keep some liberal arts majors around. They can let the STEM folks know when a movie has subtext and is actually deconstructing and critiquing an idea. On a completely tangential note, the Matrix being a metaphor for living as a trans person blew my mind.
We had this very discussion about the book Dune and it's relationship to Middle East politics. And the STEM folks were all shocked that people would take the space epic and think it had anything to do with earth politics. Even though the Fremen use Arabic words and live in the desert filled with super LSD that controls travel(space oil).
That Matrix subtext makes me like that first movie more and somehow dislike last two even more.
Edit: oh I never thought of the red pill reference. That's beautiful.
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is that not the origin of the term ‘red pill?’
oh ok, i think i’ve worked out what you mean. i am so slow today. i haven’t worked out the full metaphor yet though, gotta do some googling later.
thx for that video kwark ^^
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Plansix, you seem to have this thing against "STEM folks". You seem very...insecure.
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On November 28 2017 01:42 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 01:25 Sermokala wrote:
I don't think I've heard a less.interesting coversation then "is politics more important than friendship?".
For some people no and for some people yes. You people are embarrassing how much you all chase your own tails. I'll stand for friendships transcending political disagreements any day. My friendships from across the aisle bless my life and I value them. When I hear a NYT reporter + Show Spoiler + speaking that it's impossible for him to remain friends, it saddens me. When the forum does similar politicization of friendships, I'm saddened more. And, no, I didn't think simply electing Trump would burst the bubbles many of these reporters find themselves in.
I could be friends with someone right wing, but I couldn't be good friends with a Trump supporter because to me that shows such a fundamental contradiction in values and beliefs that I would not want to be a good friend of theirs.
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United States41984 Posts
On November 28 2017 05:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 04:37 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:
[quote]
If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices.
Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community.
Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations.
But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game.
I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
You might actually persuade them to your side.
Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. No one is "missing" anything concerning why Trump won. You're at least a year late to this discussion. Rural white America is desperately clinging to "the good old days" where they could work in an outdated or obsolete economy and perpetuate a casually xenophobic and misogynistic culture and everyone was OK with it (insofar as no one bothered to do anything about it). Now society is pushing back, forcing conservatives to actually "play fair" on the socioeconomic front, and conservatives are losing their mind and think that losing the intrinsic privileges that they had at the expense of women, minorities, LGBTQ, etc. is the same as systemic oppression. It's the ultimate hypocrisy when they love to throw out lines about "special snowflakes" and whatnot. Does this explain why so many people turn to Trump? Yes. Does it mean they're right or that it's ethically justified? Hell no. The irony being that they're embracing "snowflake" from Fight Club's critique of male fragility without understanding that you weren't meant to root for Tyler Durden's terrorist group. That movie gets harder and harder to watch every year. The story about the 20 year old guy showing it to his grandfather, saying the movie really spoke to his generation. The grandfather was stunned and told his 20 year old grand kid, “That is how they turned young men like you into Nazis.” It's why we need to keep some liberal arts majors around. They can let the STEM folks know when a movie has subtext and is actually deconstructing and critiquing an idea. On a completely tangential note, the Matrix being a metaphor for living as a trans person blew my mind. Oh god, never heard that, have to see it again. But lots of dialogs make a lot of sense suddenly. Gotta love the fact that the alt right is so “red pilled” though. The sweet, sweet irony.
In the original script the character Switch was a different gender within the Matrix. The oppressive authority figure constantly deadnames Neo. The indescribable wrongness of living within the artificial imposed framework of the matrix is a metaphor for gender dysmorphia etc. The train scene is actually taken from Lana's own struggle. Rewatching it with subtext will give you goosebumps due to how good it is.
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