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On November 28 2017 05:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Plansix, you seem to have this thing against "STEM folks". You seem very...insecure.
A lot of the pro-Jordan Peterson types who whine and cry about postmodernism infesting universities and corrupting students tend (completely anecdotally) to be STEM students.
On November 27 2017 11:59 doomdonker wrote: [quote]
I don't think there's anything wrong with his statement. Its not a binary statement where if you don't support Trump, you support the Democratic Party. You can still support, say, Mike Pence or choose some other conservative politician.
At this point, you're dumber than a sack of bricks if you STILL support Trump. We're talking about a man who clearly understands little about the world, who barely does his job, is obsessed with the media instead of America, doesn't give a shit about the people he specifically campaigned for, is flipflopping around what he campaigned for and is busy trying enrich himself and his family through the most powerful office in the world.
If you look at all of this and still think "fake news", there's nothing to talk to you about because you're living in a different reality. He's an utter legislative failure whose only achievement is getting a SC appointed, despite having majorities in both the house and senate. Which wasn't even his success but rather McConnell pulling the strings. You can't even say that he's like Jimmy Carter either because Trump is objectively a terrible person.
It's a very dangerous thing to declare there is only one opinion left to have on the situation, and to ruin personal friendships over politics. I still think he's worthy of support on some issues and opposition on others. He has helpfully made great progress bringing attention to some of society's discarded topics (in ways where polite discourse just gets dismissed, you racist bigots). If you declare there is no reason to support him whatsoever and will politicize your interpersonal friendships, there's less reason to hope for a period of national healing and unity in the future. Talk to the other side and don't rely on the right or left's propaganda to color your judgments.
It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech.
You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that.
Non-exhaustive List of those responsible for national disunity: Liberals The Left Colleges The Media The Democrats The Swamp The Cities Ungrateful Minorities Black NFL Players The Intelligence Agencies Anyone living near the coasts Athiests Muslims Mexicans #NeverTrump Closet Trump supporters Elected Republican Legislators who can't pass the President's bills
Exhaustive List of those who are upholding national unity and decency in this divisive times: President Trump Open, Proud, and Clapping Trump supporters
It’s a trying political time and men and women of sense will debate on the issues and actions.
Losers and trolls will continue to play tribal games and claim their opponents are racist douchebags. There’s still another team? Why, they must hate brown people or something! Surely the only logical thing to do is ruin friendships over politics! Yes, that’s the stuff!
Maybe they aren't racist, but they openly and knowingly support and vote for someone who vocally is, and has shown time and again that racism will be prevalent in how they conduct themselves in a position of power.
Maybe they don't hate people who can't afford healthcare, but they openly and knowingly support and vote for someone who is trying to create a system in which those people will suffer.
Maybe they don't hate education and those who provide it, but...
Imagine you are on Survivor. Your team is all voting to choose a team leader, and someone says "if you make me leader, I'll repeatedly kick the s*** out of Danglars, and make survivor great again!" and your friend passionately pipes up with "hell yeah I'll vote for this guy! He isn't like all the other team leaders who don't get things done!" How will you feel and react? If you'd be fine with that, then that's damn stupid and the trust and goodwill one associates with any degree of friendship is terribly misplaced.
Trump voters, by and large, might not have voted for his blatant racism etc, but to give a massive and arguably undeserved benefit of the doubt, they just didn't care. If someone just doesn't care about the damage their political positions and support does to me, why the hell would I consider them a friend?
The same argument extends to basic decency and having moral expectations of those you closely associate with in general.
That ones on you, and society is the worse for it.
That's the dumbest response I've ever received on a message board in my life. Which is saying a lot.
Me - "I don't want to give my friendship to someone literally actively supporting the means to the end of millions of people dying od completely preventable issues in some Randian genocide." You - "OMG no that's a bad thing, you dividing society!1!!"
Society is worse for Trump even running for president, let alone winning. Society is worse for millions of people supporting him without giving a damn for the consequences. Society is not worse because I wouldn't trust the moral judgement of such people enough to give them the trust or benefit of friendship.
Maybe it’s easier to imagine a country like an episode of “Survivor” for you, but not for me. “Literally Hitler” is outplayed and “literally genocide” is at least as backwards of a means of debate. Go talk a little more to the other side and stop these fantasies where your life is run by politics.
You've yet to do a quick visit to the other side of any racism argument.
Also relevant:
Feel free to go beyond literally Hitler and literally genocide if you want.
My guess from your song is that we're in the down-current meme section of the debate.
I don't know who Jordan Peterson is or what this postmodernism infestation is, but I really don't see why you would need a liberal arts degree to understand hollywood movie symbolism, norwhy he constantly feels the need to constantly diminish the value of STEM graduates in the US political thread.
On November 28 2017 05:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On November 28 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:
On November 28 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:
On November 28 2017 04:37 KwarK wrote:
On November 28 2017 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:
On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:
On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:
On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote: [quote] You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy.
What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence.
A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them.
And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied.
What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react?
On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:
On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:
On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote: [quote] You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them.
I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics.
In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families.
I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined.
I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships.
I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview.
No one is "missing" anything concerning why Trump won. You're at least a year late to this discussion.
Rural white America is desperately clinging to "the good old days" where they could work in an outdated or obsolete economy and perpetuate a casually xenophobic and misogynistic culture and everyone was OK with it (insofar as no one bothered to do anything about it). Now society is pushing back, forcing conservatives to actually "play fair" on the socioeconomic front, and conservatives are losing their mind and think that losing the intrinsic privileges that they had at the expense of women, minorities, LGBTQ, etc. is the same as systemic oppression. It's the ultimate hypocrisy when they love to throw out lines about "special snowflakes" and whatnot.
Does this explain why so many people turn to Trump? Yes.
Does it mean they're right or that it's ethically justified? Hell no.
The irony being that they're embracing "snowflake" from Fight Club's critique of male fragility without understanding that you weren't meant to root for Tyler Durden's terrorist group.
That movie gets harder and harder to watch every year. The story about the 20 year old guy showing it to his grandfather, saying the movie really spoke to his generation. The grandfather was stunned and told his 20 year old grand kid, “That is how they turned young men like you into Nazis.”
It's why we need to keep some liberal arts majors around. They can let the STEM folks know when a movie has subtext and is actually deconstructing and critiquing an idea.
On a completely tangential note, the Matrix being a metaphor for living as a trans person blew my mind.
Oh god, never heard that, have to see it again. But lots of dialogs make a lot of sense suddenly.
Gotta love the fact that the alt right is so “red pilled” though. The sweet, sweet irony.
In the original script the character Switch was a different gender within the Matrix. The oppressive authority figure constantly deadnames Neo. The indescribable wrongness of living within the artificial imposed framework of the matrix is a metaphor for gender dysmorphia etc. The train scene is actually taken from Lana's own struggle. Rewatching it with subtext will give you goosebumps due to how good it is. + Show Spoiler [youtube movie reviews] +
On November 28 2017 05:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote: but I really don't see why you would need a liberal arts degree to understand hollywood movie symbolism
You don't, but the kind of people who don't understand Hollywood movie symbolism are more likely to end up in STEM fields. You typically don't go study and try to make a career in things you don't understand.
On November 28 2017 05:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote: why he constantly feels the need to constantly diminish the value of STEM graduates in the US political thread.
Maybe I'm getting a different reading of the things he says than you are, but I'm not seeing any of that.
On November 28 2017 05:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't know who Jordan Peterson is or what this postmodernism infestation is, but I really don't see why you would need a liberal arts degree to understand hollywood movie symbolism.
It's a joke. There is a considerable overlap between the maladjusted online red pill MAGA ironic 4 chan racists and shitting on liberal arts majors. I linked the fact that the former group has completely failed to understand that the guy calling everyone else snowflakes in Fight Club was mentally ill with the latter. The joke is that they're the one group who most needs liberal arts majors to explain subtext to them.
On November 28 2017 05:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Plansix, you seem to have this thing against "STEM folks". You seem very...insecure.
A lot of the pro-Jordan Peterson types who whine and cry about postmodernism infesting universities and corrupting students tend (completely anecdotally) to be STEM students.
A lot of the backlash would be completely avoided if anti-Jordan Peterson types didn't overplay your hand. Behave normally, call him a doom-and-gloomer, and nobody bats an eye. Reprimand a TA for showing one of his gender pronouns debate to stoke discussion kind of does the opposite.
It's super cringey if you listen to the whole thing.
Or maybe the university administration and professor handled this right in the eyes of my more leftward friends here, I hardly know anymore on transgenders and pronoun law.
The pronoun law is don't be a dick. If you make an honest mistake from assuming and get corrected then take it with good grace and try and get it right going forward. If you break pronoun law then people might conclude that you're a dick.
Today i learned that there are actually people that think what the guys in Fightclub do was right? Well, truely an amazing world we live in, iirc not even the main character thinks its good and is actively trying to fight (well his, "normal" persona is)? I mean it's not even a hidden message or anything...
On November 28 2017 05:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Plansix, you seem to have this thing against "STEM folks". You seem very...insecure.
A lot of the pro-Jordan Peterson types who whine and cry about postmodernism infesting universities and corrupting students tend (completely anecdotally) to be STEM students.
A lot of the backlash would be completely avoided if anti-Jordan Peterson types didn't overplay your hand. Behave normally, call him a doom-and-gloomer, and nobody bats an eye. Reprimand a TA for showing one of his gender pronouns debate to stoke discussion kind of does the opposite.
Or maybe the university administration and professor handled this right in the eyes of my more leftward friends here, I hardly know anymore on transgenders and pronoun law.
I just think, as issues go, it is so inconsequential to almost anything at all that affects anyone in any meaningful way. The anti-intellectualism and sheer ignorance of academic practice that he subsequently, and I think intentionally, encourages is pretty awful, out of proportion, and in no way beneficial to anything.
On November 28 2017 05:39 Velr wrote: Today i learned that there are actually people that think what the guys in Fightclub do was right? Well, truely an amazing world we live in, iirc not even the main character thinks its good and is actively trying to fight (well his, "normal" persona is)? I mean it's not even a hidden message or anything...
You should have seen the edgy teenagers back when I was in high school. They were so convinced they would be the warlords in the new era and all their classmates would be the starving peasants begging for their mercy. If it were not for society, they would be masters, fucking sheeple bruh
On another note, at least Atlas Shrugged never survived the test of time
On November 28 2017 05:39 Velr wrote: Today i learned that there are actually people that think what the guys in Fightclub do was right? Well, truely an amazing world we live in, iirc not even the main character thinks its good and is actively trying to fight (well his, "normal" persona is)? I mean it's not even a hidden message or anything...
It's the majority view among fans of the film.
It all worked out for the film, though, but Fincher says many people don’t “get” the message.
“‘Fight Club’ is about moving through a modern disconnected society,” Fincher said. “It’s a satire. Many don’t get that.”
Still, even the director has qualms about the movie’s fans.
“My daughter had a friend named Max. She told me ‘Fight Club’ is his favorite movie,” he said. “I told her never to talk to Max again.”
On November 28 2017 05:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Plansix, you seem to have this thing against "STEM folks". You seem very...insecure.
A lot of the pro-Jordan Peterson types who whine and cry about postmodernism infesting universities and corrupting students tend (completely anecdotally) to be STEM students.
A lot of the backlash would be completely avoided if anti-Jordan Peterson types didn't overplay your hand. Behave normally, call him a doom-and-gloomer, and nobody bats an eye. Reprimand a TA for showing one of his gender pronouns debate to stoke discussion kind of does the opposite.
Or maybe the university administration and professor handled this right in the eyes of my more leftward friends here, I hardly know anymore on transgenders and pronoun law.
i don't find a 40 min gotcha vid to be a very compelling argument for liberals ruining discourse on college campuses and elsewhere. wait, didn't we have a rule about posting 40 minute videos to prove a point?
On November 28 2017 05:38 KwarK wrote: The pronoun law is don't be a dick. If you make an honest mistake from assuming and get corrected then take it with good grace and try and get it right going forward. If you break pronoun law then people might conclude that you're a dick.
It’s so goddamn easy really that anyone who doesn’t understand is intentionally not trying to understand.
Like most things, if you appear to treat anything with respect no one is going to have a real problem with you even if you fuck up.
Its my favorite movie but I appreciate it more from the direction that tyler durden is the guy that guys think they want to be but in reality is a miserable violent broken individual that ends up becoming a terrorist.
On November 28 2017 05:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Plansix, you seem to have this thing against "STEM folks". You seem very...insecure.
A lot of the pro-Jordan Peterson types who whine and cry about postmodernism infesting universities and corrupting students tend (completely anecdotally) to be STEM students.
A lot of the backlash would be completely avoided if anti-Jordan Peterson types didn't overplay your hand. Behave normally, call him a doom-and-gloomer, and nobody bats an eye. Reprimand a TA for showing one of his gender pronouns debate to stoke discussion kind of does the opposite.
Or maybe the university administration and professor handled this right in the eyes of my more leftward friends here, I hardly know anymore on transgenders and pronoun law.
i don't find a 40 min gotcha vid to be a very compelling argument for liberals ruining discourse on college campuses and elsewhere. wait, didn't we have a rule about posting 40 minute videos to prove a point?
This case is extreme, even the UCs don't do this, but what is happening in the video is outright bullying and trying to link the suicide and bullying of trans people to a Jordan Peterson interview with Steven Paikin.
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