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On November 28 2017 01:54 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 01:46 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 01:37 Gahlo wrote:On November 28 2017 01:08 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 00:53 Gahlo wrote:On November 28 2017 00:37 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 00:11 Gahlo wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 14:06 Danglars wrote:
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It's a very dangerous thing to declare there is only one opinion left to have on the situation, and to ruin personal friendships over politics. I still think he's worthy of support on some issues and opposition on others. He has helpfully made great progress bringing attention to some of society's discarded topics (in ways where polite discourse just gets dismissed, you racist bigots). If you declare there is no reason to support him whatsoever and will politicize your interpersonal friendships, there's less reason to hope for a period of national healing and unity in the future. Talk to the other side and don't rely on the right or left's propaganda to color your judgments. It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech. You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Aren't you the person that's been saying that Trump is The Left's fault and been hand waiving personal responsibility of people that voted for him? So this was all in reaction to the tweet by a NYT columnist. I wonder if you have a response to that tweet. Agree/disagree? You can’t be friends with people of an opposing political opinion if it involves supporting Trump? I'm not going to disparage people on how they choose their friends, that's up to them. When it comes to my republican friends, we just don't talk politics generally. You talk about your Republican friends like you still intend to keep them as friends. How can you say this when Trump is literally so bad? I’ve just heard some very passionate speeches about genocide and racism in this very forum, but I’m a Republican with many Democrat friends and not the reverse. Do you deny Trump is out to hurt you? Do you think your friends are evil or somewhat racist if they support him in some areas? Where do you get the notion that I agree that it's a necessity? And yes, by Trump's intention to repeal Obamacase I stand to be unable to afford health insurance. I'm implying that you've seen the arguments against and might have a response. I don't believe my Hillary-supporting friends literally seek my life, so I'm a little removed from understanding your point of view. I'll repeat: You've seen people here call Trump supporters supporters of racism and genocide. Are you of the same opinion and do you think the friends you're keeping are also evil, or racist, or other? I've made my opinion known on the matter previously about whether or not they support that. The former friends that I had that I found out to be racist I've summarily dropped from my life - and quite abruptly. I don't keep shit people in my life.
Nice dodge, but I gather you have no intention to answer the question. The allegation is that just unvoiced support of Trump is grounds enough to terminate friendship. If you're keeping Republican friends, and I presume some Trump voters/partial Trump supporters among them, you must have some unspoken reason that you disagree with posters here that say support alone is enough to call them tolerant of genocide and racism. Maybe you don't think all Trump supporters are racist and somewhat evil (maybe for repeal of ACA)? I really don't want to put words in your mouth, so if you want to disagree without elaboration that's okay too.
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On November 28 2017 02:33 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 02:09 Nebuchad wrote:
Danglars' posting is actually quite consistent if you start from the premise that he's a warrior. You will see two separate parts:
One, how he tells you that the enemy should treat him:
- Be closer to him on issues, particularly social (cause you are quite extreme, this is the part where you are a liberal SJW person and the american public has rejected you by voting for Trump)
- Perceive him as a person not a movement (it's wrong to criticize him for anything that Trump or the GOP or the right does, cause he might not agree)
- Accept some diversity in your thoughts (have friends that think like me, value the opinions of those friends, it's important to have a wide range of opinions that you choose from, etc)
So generally, a situation where you compromise and meet him halfway to create unity and less division.
Two, how he actually wants to (and does) deal with his enemies:
- Strong on immigration, strong on defense of conservative values. No willingness to meet people halfway when it comes to values that are different, some are so different that they shouldn't even be present in our western countries.
- Talk about "the left", "the liberals", "the SJWs"... And of course, you are going to have to defend what these people said cause you're in the same group, or close enough.
- Basically always defend the most rightwing position that is deemed acceptable regardless of circumstances.
So generally, a refusal to give ground on any issue and a strong showing of moral certitude for any situation.
Guys, let me offer a thought here. I don't think he thinks he's giving us good advice. It's a debate thread. I'm going to argue that my stance on the issues is correct. Why do you have such a problem with that?
I don't have a problem with anything you're doing. I'm just pointing out that the way you advise your opposition to act and the way you act are quite different from one another. I'm offering what I think is the simplest explanation for this discrepancy.
I don't aspire to be politically moderate. Especially not in a definition of moderate where you aren't extreme because liberals are the left.
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idk, i’m rather surprised by the whole topic. on the other hand, maybe i’m just a shitty friend. i’ve dropped people for a lot less. if i had a friend who was excited about things like banning trans people from a bathroom or the military i wouldn’t have to question myself. not even for a second. in fact, i’d be surprised they had seemed attractive enough (not just superficially) for my interest in the first place.
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On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
The problem is that you assume folks like myself are "value(ing) friendships so lightly." That isn't the case. How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster.
I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine.
Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics.
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On November 28 2017 01:55 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 01:51 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 01:26 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2017 01:20 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 00:48 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2017 00:45 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 00:34 Kickboxer wrote:
Losing friends over support of a candidate who actually won the election sounds like a totally non-divisive thing. Umm ... yeah. I really don't understand people who think they are making the world a better place by acting immature, confrontational and / or self-absorbed. It's really not how progress works, guys. Comparing Trump to the Golden Dawn? What the hell?
Here's a tip for you, if you possess any verbal intelligence and you think Trump is THAT BAD you should be able to slowly convince them to nudge closer to your position or at least accept it. What you are doing makes you appear brainwashed. He won the fucking election. All it takes is a rich white guy to justify “We can’t be friends anymore.” Imagine thinking that Donald Trump is a small leap. Hey, he got elected. Maybe realize that your fellow countrymen (in case of NYT columnist and some American posters here) did so and don’t cast your friends aside over it. There will be more elections in future. He was also a very natural successor to politics as practiced during the Obama regime  Your argument was portraying Trump as a small leap. "All it takes is a rich white guy" implies that there's nothing quite special about Trump support, you would have expected that more would have been needed, while the argument that has been presented to you up until now has been exactly the opposite: that there was something special about Trump support. Effectively what you have done here is ignore the arguments you've been given, treat your opposition as if it already agreed with you, and then conclude that your opposition is weird based on us all agreeing on what you have said. We haven't. I will say for the sake of honesty that I had this policy for the far right in Switzerland long before Trump, and our far right is nowhere as extreme as your right. But then again I'm not a liberal so that helps me with the distance too. Hoping Obama fails in his stated agenda is peanuts compared to saying you can't be friends with Trump supporters. Apparently, there is no standard here and there is only partisan politics. Why is that an answer to this post? My argument, really my comment to Kickboxer, was that the left lacked standards. They bristled at a mild form of criticism compared to what came next. You missed the boat and excerpted a quote. That's true, I did excerpt a quote. You did write this quote though, and it was a central part of your response, so the fact that it was either disingenuous or foolish was relevant to your entire post.
It was part of a response that should be read and understood in its entirety if you think one sentence is a sufficient sum-up of the post. I'm not going to play games of stripping context and taking the argument sideways if that's your level of debate here. I don't even know if you accept the charge that you lack standards, or agreed with people that viewed criticism of Obama that way, or even saw the parallel in the first place.
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On November 28 2017 02:43 brian wrote:
idk, i’m rather surprised by the whole topic. on the other hand, maybe i’m just a shitty friend. i’ve dropped people for a lot less. if i had a friend who was excited about things like banning trans people from a bathroom or the military i wouldn’t have to question myself. not even for a second. in fact, i’d be surprised they had seemed attractive enough (not just superficially) for my interest in the first place.
I'd also differentiate between degrees of friendship.
true friends i'd expect to have a lot of shared values (and/or some other basis for bonding); loose acquaintance "friendships" is a much lower standard, and as long as there's a game we mutually enjoy or something that's enough (as long as they're not insufferably bringing up politics).
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On November 28 2017 02:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 01:25 Sermokala wrote:
I don't think I've heard a less.interesting coversation then "is politics more important than friendship?".
For some people no and for some people yes. You people are embarrassing how much you all chase your own tails. It started out with people saying that they were also upset that politics have come to that, but such is the era Trump’s brand grievance of politics. And that it has become harder to be friends with people who continued to overtly support Trump in late 2017. Then some folks turned it into “you’re part of the problem! It is so self indulgent to give up close friendships over politics!” That somehow I’m supposed to look past people that continue to openly support stripping my wife’s healthcare benefits away. And that is after I explain it to them.
But heres the problem. If you have your conversation with someone and you reach the point where you say "this will strip benefits from my wife" and that isnt an affective argument then you have a bad friend. If you have a conversation with someone and they say "I feel like the left in america doesn't respect me or my culture so trumps the most effective message I have." You can say "I understand but I dont think thats enough to get over all the baggage that comes with supporting trump" and move on without ending relationships beacuse trump is more important to you then they are.
And thats all thats going on. Trumps going to be gone one day and he shouldn't define your life choices one way or another.
Happy hmong new years everyone.
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On November 28 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
The problem is that you assume folks like myself are "value(ing) friendships so lightly." That isn't the case.
Their political opinions just broke them. No caveat was made for their expression or non-expression. You might not like that it's the case, but it's a fair charge.
Not a lot of subtlety there. If you're currently friends with me, but I didn't know up until now that you were a Trump supporter, we can't be friends anymore. Just shout it to the world. Show what place friendships occupy in your life.
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On November 28 2017 02:53 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 02:28 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 01:25 Sermokala wrote:
I don't think I've heard a less.interesting coversation then "is politics more important than friendship?".
For some people no and for some people yes. You people are embarrassing how much you all chase your own tails. It started out with people saying that they were also upset that politics have come to that, but such is the era Trump’s brand grievance of politics. And that it has become harder to be friends with people who continued to overtly support Trump in late 2017. Then some folks turned it into “you’re part of the problem! It is so self indulgent to give up close friendships over politics!” That somehow I’m supposed to look past people that continue to openly support stripping my wife’s healthcare benefits away. And that is after I explain it to them. But heres the problem. If you have your conversation with someone and you reach the point where you say "this will strip benefits from my wife" and that isnt an affective argument then you have a bad friend. If you have a conversation with someone and they say "I feel like the left in america doesn't respect me or my culture so trumps the most effective message I have." You can say "I understand but I dont think thats enough to get over all the baggage that comes with supporting trump" and move on without ending relationships beacuse trump is more important to you then they are. And thats all thats going on. Trumps going to be gone one day and he shouldn't define your life choices one way or another. Happy hmong new years everyone.
Well said. Trump is out in three years and I think the Democrats will scrape together a good enough candidate to oppose him that won't make Hillary's mistakes in 2020.
I hope your friendships last longer than a term-limited president. I hope that for my political enemies as well as my political friends.
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On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:On November 28 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
The problem is that you assume folks like myself are "value(ing) friendships so lightly." That isn't the case. How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics.
You might actually persuade them to your side.
Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth.
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On November 28 2017 02:53 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 02:28 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 01:25 Sermokala wrote:
I don't think I've heard a less.interesting coversation then "is politics more important than friendship?".
For some people no and for some people yes. You people are embarrassing how much you all chase your own tails. It started out with people saying that they were also upset that politics have come to that, but such is the era Trump’s brand grievance of politics. And that it has become harder to be friends with people who continued to overtly support Trump in late 2017. Then some folks turned it into “you’re part of the problem! It is so self indulgent to give up close friendships over politics!” That somehow I’m supposed to look past people that continue to openly support stripping my wife’s healthcare benefits away. And that is after I explain it to them. But heres the problem. If you have your conversation with someone and you reach the point where you say "this will strip benefits from my wife" and that isnt an affective argument then you have a bad friend. If you have a conversation with someone and they say "I feel like the left in america doesn't respect me or my culture so trumps the most effective message I have." You can say "I understand but I dont think thats enough to get over all the baggage that comes with supporting trump" and move on without ending relationships beacuse trump is more important to you then they are. And thats all thats going on. Trumps going to be gone one day and he shouldn't define your life choices one way or another. Happy hmong new years everyone.
Maybe they were a bad friend and it took the 2016 election for me to realize it. Or maybe the 2016 elections put the thumb on the scale. It is hard to tell.
But both of us have had more than a few people in our lives respond by telling us we are being dramatic and it won’t be that bad. They flat our refused to engage with the reality of their political beliefs, even when we were right in front of them.
We had a Muslim friend who had to move because the rural town he lived in had a bunch of “local trouble makers” who happened to be super racist. And the local cops did not care about the harassment, so our buddy and his wife moved. People have told us those friends were being “dramatic” and nothing would have happened.
I don’t know how to remain friends with people like that. I don’t know how to bring myself to want to be around them.
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On November 28 2017 01:52 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 01:45 LegalLord wrote:
Well.. it's certainly impressive how many people here choose their friendships based on political similarities. Though it does make sense in context of that "us vs them" mentality being cultivated.
Guess Mr. Blow is just one of many rather than some bizarre outlier. I did not know that. i mean it’s a direct correlation to the strong identity and social politics of the time. i wouldn’t sooner call it causation before correlation. i generally find myself more attracted to people who share my thoughts on equality, who treat women like they have their own autonomy, and i generally run from any guns, no matter who owns them. as much as i’d like to think so, i can’t imagine i’m too special here. i long for the days where i was so naive as to think people were just voting for how to spend their tax dollars. i just didn’t have enough awareness of other people to realize the implications of the social platforms. lastly, of course, where you live will also play a strong factor. i just don’t meet many republicans on a daily basis. anecdote, i once helped a guy move and then i moved his two glocks. we arent friends anymore. his being a conservative was not a factor in this decision.
I have both sides of the political spectrum in high supply around where I live. My FB feeds have everything from Trump praise to people going batshit over Brexit and long diatribes about how this and that policy is terrible from Trump. Thing is, I don’t take those disagreements personally and assume that anyone that disagrees with me is trying to destroy my life or something. I generally see why people have such different views and accept it for what it is rather than paint them as evil for it. Politics really isn’t a big enough part of my life for me to define friendships based on it. Mostly if I talk politics I do it in a light-hearted way, like saying “thank god Trump did X” to get a rise out of sufficiently militant liberals or say “tired of winning yet?” to someone who likes Trump. I can sympathize both with anti-Clinton and anti-Trump sentiment so there usually is common ground.
I can’t say I have any particular preference for either side of the political spectrum. There’s things I have in common with the religious right, there’s things I utterly despise about them. There’s common ground with progressives or the current brand of establishment liberalism and things I don’t like about them. I don’t hold onto any illusions that anyone really intends to make life actively worse for others, even if sometimes that would be the unfortunate results of policies they support.
If anything, the biggest thing I dislike is people who let those politics define them. Virulent and evangelizing Trump supporters are no more pleasant to be around than people who ask me to repent for my sins when I’m taking a stroll in the park. But people who spend their days bitching about how bad Trump is are also people I tend to spend less time with. No, I don’t like him, but life goes on and there’s always consequences from political results that affect me (and believe me, there are plenty of those). The people who have nothing better to do than talk Trump all day can fuck off, no matter which side of the fence they are on.
And incidentally, the only person I knew who ever really obsessed with guns was a psychopath and I would be only very mildly surprised to hear he decided to take after the Unabomber or something. Staying away from guns in general is not the worst philosophy. They’re a hazard to people who possess them more so than to what they’re used to defend against.
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On November 28 2017 02:40 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 01:54 Gahlo wrote:On November 28 2017 01:46 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 01:37 Gahlo wrote:On November 28 2017 01:08 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 00:53 Gahlo wrote:On November 28 2017 00:37 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 00:11 Gahlo wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech.
You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Aren't you the person that's been saying that Trump is The Left's fault and been hand waiving personal responsibility of people that voted for him? So this was all in reaction to the tweet by a NYT columnist. I wonder if you have a response to that tweet. Agree/disagree? You can’t be friends with people of an opposing political opinion if it involves supporting Trump? I'm not going to disparage people on how they choose their friends, that's up to them. When it comes to my republican friends, we just don't talk politics generally. You talk about your Republican friends like you still intend to keep them as friends. How can you say this when Trump is literally so bad? I’ve just heard some very passionate speeches about genocide and racism in this very forum, but I’m a Republican with many Democrat friends and not the reverse. Do you deny Trump is out to hurt you? Do you think your friends are evil or somewhat racist if they support him in some areas? Where do you get the notion that I agree that it's a necessity? And yes, by Trump's intention to repeal Obamacase I stand to be unable to afford health insurance. I'm implying that you've seen the arguments against and might have a response. I don't believe my Hillary-supporting friends literally seek my life, so I'm a little removed from understanding your point of view. I'll repeat: You've seen people here call Trump supporters supporters of racism and genocide. Are you of the same opinion and do you think the friends you're keeping are also evil, or racist, or other? I've made my opinion known on the matter previously about whether or not they support that. The former friends that I had that I found out to be racist I've summarily dropped from my life - and quite abruptly. I don't keep shit people in my life. Nice dodge, but I gather you have no intention to answer the question. The allegation is that just unvoiced support of Trump is grounds enough to terminate friendship. If you're keeping Republican friends, and I presume some Trump voters/partial Trump supporters among them, you must have some unspoken reason that you disagree with posters here that say support alone is enough to call them tolerant of genocide and racism. Maybe you don't think all Trump supporters are racist and somewhat evil (maybe for repeal of ACA)? I really don't want to put words in your mouth, so if you want to disagree without elaboration that's okay too.
Not fun is it?
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On November 28 2017 02:53 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
The problem is that you assume folks like myself are "value(ing) friendships so lightly." That isn't the case. Their political opinions just broke them. No caveat was made for their expression or non-expression. You might not like that it's the case, but it's a fair charge. https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/934159382874640386Not a lot of subtlety there. If you're currently friends with me, but I didn't know up until now that you were a Trump supporter, we can't be friends anymore. Just shout it to the world. Show what place friendships occupy in your life.
I would have the same idea about my friends..Now if only it was as easy with my dad =/ Luckily we don't live in the US so he don't get a vote in any case.
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On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 14:06 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 11:59 doomdonker wrote:On November 27 2017 11:05 LegalLord wrote:
Bummer to hear that from a columnist I actually think is pretty good. I don't think there's anything wrong with his statement. Its not a binary statement where if you don't support Trump, you support the Democratic Party. You can still support, say, Mike Pence or choose some other conservative politician. At this point, you're dumber than a sack of bricks if you STILL support Trump. We're talking about a man who clearly understands little about the world, who barely does his job, is obsessed with the media instead of America, doesn't give a shit about the people he specifically campaigned for, is flipflopping around what he campaigned for and is busy trying enrich himself and his family through the most powerful office in the world. If you look at all of this and still think "fake news", there's nothing to talk to you about because you're living in a different reality. He's an utter legislative failure whose only achievement is getting a SC appointed, despite having majorities in both the house and senate. Which wasn't even his success but rather McConnell pulling the strings. You can't even say that he's like Jimmy Carter either because Trump is objectively a terrible person. It's a very dangerous thing to declare there is only one opinion left to have on the situation, and to ruin personal friendships over politics. I still think he's worthy of support on some issues and opposition on others. He has helpfully made great progress bringing attention to some of society's discarded topics (in ways where polite discourse just gets dismissed, you racist bigots). If you declare there is no reason to support him whatsoever and will politicize your interpersonal friendships, there's less reason to hope for a period of national healing and unity in the future. Talk to the other side and don't rely on the right or left's propaganda to color your judgments. It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech. You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this.
Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES.
There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever.
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On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:On November 28 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
The problem is that you assume folks like myself are "value(ing) friendships so lightly." That isn't the case. How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics. You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth.
You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them.
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On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 14:06 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 11:59 doomdonker wrote:On November 27 2017 11:05 LegalLord wrote:
Bummer to hear that from a columnist I actually think is pretty good. I don't think there's anything wrong with his statement. Its not a binary statement where if you don't support Trump, you support the Democratic Party. You can still support, say, Mike Pence or choose some other conservative politician. At this point, you're dumber than a sack of bricks if you STILL support Trump. We're talking about a man who clearly understands little about the world, who barely does his job, is obsessed with the media instead of America, doesn't give a shit about the people he specifically campaigned for, is flipflopping around what he campaigned for and is busy trying enrich himself and his family through the most powerful office in the world. If you look at all of this and still think "fake news", there's nothing to talk to you about because you're living in a different reality. He's an utter legislative failure whose only achievement is getting a SC appointed, despite having majorities in both the house and senate. Which wasn't even his success but rather McConnell pulling the strings. You can't even say that he's like Jimmy Carter either because Trump is objectively a terrible person. It's a very dangerous thing to declare there is only one opinion left to have on the situation, and to ruin personal friendships over politics. I still think he's worthy of support on some issues and opposition on others. He has helpfully made great progress bringing attention to some of society's discarded topics (in ways where polite discourse just gets dismissed, you racist bigots). If you declare there is no reason to support him whatsoever and will politicize your interpersonal friendships, there's less reason to hope for a period of national healing and unity in the future. Talk to the other side and don't rely on the right or left's propaganda to color your judgments. It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech. You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever.
If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices.
Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community.
Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations.
But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game.
I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists.
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This article is interesting. There seems to be a trend of the hyper rich funding think tanks linked to lies like this.
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United States42292 Posts
On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 14:06 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 11:59 doomdonker wrote:On November 27 2017 11:05 LegalLord wrote:
Bummer to hear that from a columnist I actually think is pretty good. I don't think there's anything wrong with his statement. Its not a binary statement where if you don't support Trump, you support the Democratic Party. You can still support, say, Mike Pence or choose some other conservative politician. At this point, you're dumber than a sack of bricks if you STILL support Trump. We're talking about a man who clearly understands little about the world, who barely does his job, is obsessed with the media instead of America, doesn't give a shit about the people he specifically campaigned for, is flipflopping around what he campaigned for and is busy trying enrich himself and his family through the most powerful office in the world. If you look at all of this and still think "fake news", there's nothing to talk to you about because you're living in a different reality. He's an utter legislative failure whose only achievement is getting a SC appointed, despite having majorities in both the house and senate. Which wasn't even his success but rather McConnell pulling the strings. You can't even say that he's like Jimmy Carter either because Trump is objectively a terrible person. It's a very dangerous thing to declare there is only one opinion left to have on the situation, and to ruin personal friendships over politics. I still think he's worthy of support on some issues and opposition on others. He has helpfully made great progress bringing attention to some of society's discarded topics (in ways where polite discourse just gets dismissed, you racist bigots). If you declare there is no reason to support him whatsoever and will politicize your interpersonal friendships, there's less reason to hope for a period of national healing and unity in the future. Talk to the other side and don't rely on the right or left's propaganda to color your judgments. It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech. You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists.
You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy.
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EPT
