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On November 25 2017 11:26 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:12 zlefin wrote:
spouting the term hordes like that pretty much discredits you as having any basis in rationality rather than foolish bias.
you're obviousyl just pushing a narrative regardless of evidence as if it were the pure unavoidable truth, which it quite plainly isn't.
and you're citing a survey that occurred after the war was over; fog of war is a thing oyu know.
that some people had some opinions doesn't mean that much, others had other opinions. that's the whole pont of things being UNCLEAR.
yes, you are a truther, you're pushing a narrative regardless of the actual facts because it's whta you want to believe to make yourself feel better. calling us nutjobs? you're just being a jerk for no valid raeson.
No, there's two sides to it, and ALL I never hear from Americans like you and Plansix is the pro-bombing side. Even now you're angrily going in denial trying to discredit me as a person and calling me foolish because clearly your viewpoint is upset by the reality of the situation that I am presenting. That is why I am pushing the opposition, because many people seem blissfully unaware. Just like Taxion or whatever and his perception of Thanksgiving -- he didn't know GreenHorizon's perspective existed at all. He thought it was unique somehow, rather than an accurate, realistic, and common perception of the celebration of the murder of thousands of natives.
no, you're simply a lying troll. that's the problem.
i'm not angrily going into denial, i'm angry at you cuz you're being a complete jerk about it AND because you're ignoring the reality and only presenting one side. whereas the rest of us have been pointing out it's a complicated nuanced situation with no clear answer. you pretend like you have the one magical unvarnished truth that is 100% correct, which isn't the caes at all.
nobody is unaware of it; you're just being an asshole about it.
and yes, you are horribly biased, and also very stupid about it given that you can't understand the clear point I made: that fog of war means we DIDNT know how the japanese would respond, and citing a survey that used information only available AFTER the war when they were occupied doesn't mean they reasonably knew at the time.
also, you're a twat, and anyone with sense knows we did far worse than the atomic bombing just via the regular firebombing of a great great many cities.
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I don't think murdering thousands of natives is what people celebrate thanksgiving for.
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On November 25 2017 11:16 Nevuk wrote:
I thought the current semi consensus was that it was mostly about keeping Russia from claiming all of Europe by scaring them?
Gar Alperovitz makes a pretty convincing argument that this was the main reason for dropping the bombs. Especially the second one.
IIRC among other things, we intercepted Japanese comms that they were getting ready to unconditionally surrender, etc., and we still dropped them.
Here's the abridged version: https://www.thenation.com/article/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/
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There are historians in Japan say Japan would not unconditionally surrendered cited in the very wiki you linked. The article itself states the debate is still active. You cherry pick parts of a wiki and then call everyone stupid for reading the other half.
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The first warning signs you guys should have seen were when he said he wanted another french revolution to happen. The second was when you googled his signature and realized that he took this political philosophy from game of thrones. The third is when he posts info that is so cherry picked he doesn't even hide the wealth of conflicting info right around it he just doesn't feel the need to read those parts.
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On November 25 2017 11:34 bo1b wrote:
I don't think murdering thousands of natives is what people celebrate thanksgiving for.
Mostly nope. We are aware of it has a troubled history. But to many it's a tradition about families gathering once a year.
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On November 25 2017 11:31 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:26 a_flayer wrote:On November 25 2017 11:12 zlefin wrote:
spouting the term hordes like that pretty much discredits you as having any basis in rationality rather than foolish bias.
you're obviousyl just pushing a narrative regardless of evidence as if it were the pure unavoidable truth, which it quite plainly isn't.
and you're citing a survey that occurred after the war was over; fog of war is a thing oyu know.
that some people had some opinions doesn't mean that much, others had other opinions. that's the whole pont of things being UNCLEAR.
yes, you are a truther, you're pushing a narrative regardless of the actual facts because it's whta you want to believe to make yourself feel better. calling us nutjobs? you're just being a jerk for no valid raeson.
No, there's two sides to it, and ALL I never hear from Americans like you and Plansix is the pro-bombing side. Even now you're angrily going in denial trying to discredit me as a person and calling me foolish because clearly your viewpoint is upset by the reality of the situation that I am presenting. That is why I am pushing the opposition, because many people seem blissfully unaware. Just like Taxion or whatever and his perception of Thanksgiving -- he didn't know GreenHorizon's perspective existed at all. He thought it was unique somehow, rather than an accurate, realistic, and common perception of the celebration of the murder of thousands of natives. no, you're simply a lying troll. that's the problem. i'm not angrily going into denial, i'm angry at you cuz you're being a complete jerk about it AND because you're ignoring the reality and only presenting one side. whereas the rest of us have been pointing out it's a complicated nuanced situation with no clear answer. you pretend like you have the one magical unvarnished truth that is 100% correct, which isn't the caes at all. nobody is unaware of it; you're just being an asshole about it.
Oh really? Nuanced? Where is the nuance in this, exactly?
On November 25 2017 07:54 Plansix wrote:
Let’s not paint Imperial Japan as some victim of the mean Americans power. There are large sections of Asia that still hold a grudge against Japan, with good reason. And we totally dropped that bomb to end that war. And then they dropped the second one because the war didn’t end. Then Japan tried to end the war, but a bunch of generals in Japan totally thought they could still win and there was a fight to prevent the Emperor from delivering the message to the people about the surrender.
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I don't count plansix as part of "the rest of us" that's plansix, and even then he was responding to your nonsense, so you're the instigator; and what you did was still unequivocally wrong flayer.
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On November 25 2017 11:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:34 bo1b wrote:
I don't think murdering thousands of natives is what people celebrate thanksgiving for. Mostly nope. We are aware of it has a troubled history. But to many it's a tradition about families gathering once a year.
Well yeh, I thought it was fairly obvious what was being celebrated.
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On November 25 2017 11:26 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:12 zlefin wrote:
spouting the term hordes like that pretty much discredits you as having any basis in rationality rather than foolish bias.
you're obviousyl just pushing a narrative regardless of evidence as if it were the pure unavoidable truth, which it quite plainly isn't.
and you're citing a survey that occurred after the war was over; fog of war is a thing oyu know.
that some people had some opinions doesn't mean that much, others had other opinions. that's the whole pont of things being UNCLEAR.
yes, you are a truther, you're pushing a narrative regardless of the actual facts because it's whta you want to believe to make yourself feel better. calling us nutjobs? you're just being a jerk for no valid raeson.
No, there's two sides to it, and ALL I never hear from Americans like you and Plansix is the pro-bombing side. Even now you're angrily going in denial trying to discredit me as a person and calling me foolish because clearly your viewpoint is upset by the reality of the situation that I am presenting. That is why I am pushing the opposition, because many people seem blissfully unaware. Even celebrating the bombing as revenge on Pearl Harbour or whatever. Just like Taxion or whatever and his perception of Thanksgiving -- he didn't know GreenHorizon's perspective existed at all. He thought it was unique somehow, rather than an accurate, realistic, and common perception of the celebration of the murder of thousands of natives. Oh, and NOW fog of war is a thing to justify atomic bombs being dropped on civilian populations, but when Russia bombs Aleppo to get rid of the suicide bombers who are holding civilians hostage it is all "they're doing it on purpose!" Jesus Christ. Yeah, and I'm the one who is biased. Right.
It sounds like your real problem is limited exposure to people that know the decision was tough, but ultimately conclude that Truman was justified in making that decision.
Its like those hordes of Americans who think that dropping the atomic bombs on Japan was done in an effort to end the war.
You’re still no closer to proving Truman didn’t make the decision for the obvious reasons.
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On November 25 2017 11:26 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:12 zlefin wrote:
spouting the term hordes like that pretty much discredits you as having any basis in rationality rather than foolish bias.
you're obviousyl just pushing a narrative regardless of evidence as if it were the pure unavoidable truth, which it quite plainly isn't.
and you're citing a survey that occurred after the war was over; fog of war is a thing oyu know.
that some people had some opinions doesn't mean that much, others had other opinions. that's the whole pont of things being UNCLEAR.
yes, you are a truther, you're pushing a narrative regardless of the actual facts because it's whta you want to believe to make yourself feel better. calling us nutjobs? you're just being a jerk for no valid raeson.
Just like Taxion or whatever and his perception of Thanksgiving -- he didn't know GreenHorizon's perspective existed at all. He thought it was unique somehow, rather than an accurate, realistic, and common perception of the celebration of the murder of thousands of natives.
Whoa now, that was all Danglars. I'm just here to make quips from the peanut gallery.
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On November 25 2017 11:47 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:26 a_flayer wrote:On November 25 2017 11:12 zlefin wrote:
spouting the term hordes like that pretty much discredits you as having any basis in rationality rather than foolish bias.
you're obviousyl just pushing a narrative regardless of evidence as if it were the pure unavoidable truth, which it quite plainly isn't.
and you're citing a survey that occurred after the war was over; fog of war is a thing oyu know.
that some people had some opinions doesn't mean that much, others had other opinions. that's the whole pont of things being UNCLEAR.
yes, you are a truther, you're pushing a narrative regardless of the actual facts because it's whta you want to believe to make yourself feel better. calling us nutjobs? you're just being a jerk for no valid raeson.
Just like Taxion or whatever and his perception of Thanksgiving -- he didn't know GreenHorizon's perspective existed at all. He thought it was unique somehow, rather than an accurate, realistic, and common perception of the celebration of the murder of thousands of natives. Whoa now, that was all Danglars. I'm just here to make quips from the peanut gallery.
We’re all interchangeable.
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On November 25 2017 11:34 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:16 Nevuk wrote:
I thought the current semi consensus was that it was mostly about keeping Russia from claiming all of Europe by scaring them? Gar Alperovitz makes a pretty convincing argument that this was the main reason for dropping the bombs. Especially the second one. IIRC among other things, we intercepted Japanese comms that they were getting ready to unconditionally surrender, etc., and we still dropped them. Here's the abridged version: https://www.thenation.com/article/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/
Although I agree that there were signs part of the Japanese leadership wanted to unconditionally surrender, that was set against a backdrop of the public vowing to fight forever. Even after the first bomb was dropped. It was never clear that unconditional surrender was coming.
Even if we had not used it, they would have been used in the Korean War 5 years later.
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Trump has apparently tried to bypass the letter of the law by announcing his own interim director. Lawsuits likely.
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On November 25 2017 11:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:34 darthfoley wrote:On November 25 2017 11:16 Nevuk wrote:
I thought the current semi consensus was that it was mostly about keeping Russia from claiming all of Europe by scaring them? Gar Alperovitz makes a pretty convincing argument that this was the main reason for dropping the bombs. Especially the second one. IIRC among other things, we intercepted Japanese comms that they were getting ready to unconditionally surrender, etc., and we still dropped them. Here's the abridged version: https://www.thenation.com/article/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/ Although I agree that there were signs part of the Japanese leadership wanted to unconditionally surrender, that was set against a backdrop of the public vowing to fight forever. Even after the first bomb was dropped. It was never clear that unconditional surrender was coming. Even if we had not used it, they would have been used in the Korean War 5 years later.
Might as well have, considering the way your country handled that one. Bombing rice fields and damns to try and starve the population. That must be why your country supports the way the Saudis are bombing Yemen.
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On November 25 2017 12:39 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:54 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2017 11:34 darthfoley wrote:On November 25 2017 11:16 Nevuk wrote:
I thought the current semi consensus was that it was mostly about keeping Russia from claiming all of Europe by scaring them? Gar Alperovitz makes a pretty convincing argument that this was the main reason for dropping the bombs. Especially the second one. IIRC among other things, we intercepted Japanese comms that they were getting ready to unconditionally surrender, etc., and we still dropped them. Here's the abridged version: https://www.thenation.com/article/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/ Although I agree that there were signs part of the Japanese leadership wanted to unconditionally surrender, that was set against a backdrop of the public vowing to fight forever. Even after the first bomb was dropped. It was never clear that unconditional surrender was coming. Even if we had not used it, they would have been used in the Korean War 5 years later. Might as well have, considering the way your country handled that one. Bombing rice fields and damns to try and starve the population. That must be why your country supports the way the Saudis are bombing Yemen.
Its imperial Japan, they spent a good chunk of time abusing china and raping the women of child to keep their soldiers happy. They had a whole handbook about it and everything. There isn't a lot of moral high ground for the treatment of civilians in WW2 on any side.
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Canada11272 Posts
On November 25 2017 11:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:34 bo1b wrote:
I don't think murdering thousands of natives is what people celebrate thanksgiving for. Mostly nope. We are aware of it has a troubled history. But to many it's a tradition about families gathering once a year.
I would say all the way nope. Where was there a time where Thanksgiving was used to celebrate indigenous death? Washington used it to celebrate the conclusion of the Revolution, true. Lincoln used it towards the end of the Civil War to "“commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife” and to “heal the wounds of the nation.”" And very rarely were relations between indigenous and settlers as amicable as Tisquantum's contribution to the survival of the pilgrims and the following reciprocal feast. Nonetheless, it seems to me it has always been used an opportunity for thankfulness, rather than a celebration of death.
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On November 25 2017 13:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:37 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2017 11:34 bo1b wrote:
I don't think murdering thousands of natives is what people celebrate thanksgiving for. Mostly nope. We are aware of it has a troubled history. But to many it's a tradition about families gathering once a year. I would say all the way nope. Where was there a time where Thanksgiving was used to celebrate indigenous death? Washington used it to celebrate the conclusion of the Revolution, true. Lincoln used it towards the end of the Civil War to "“commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife” and to “heal the wounds of the nation.”" And very rarely were relations between indigenous and settlers as amicable as Tisquantum's contribution to the survival of the pilgrims and the following reciprocal feast. Nonetheless, it seems to me it has always been used an opportunity for thankfulness, rather than a celebration of death.
The most charitable interpretation is that it isn't a reference to a specific "thanksgiving" event but to an event (the populating of the US by Europeans) that led to all those horrible things he mentioned. Because you are right, that isn't what the holiday is about.
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On November 25 2017 09:59 Doodsmack wrote:It is totally innocent that Trump said "Man (Person)" here.
Update:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8Vu8dkX.jpg)
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Are magazines really still a thing? I honestly havent seen one in years. I imagine that people that buy them are climate change deniers that love felling trees and increasing co2 emissions.
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EPT
