US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9319

On November 25 2017 14:57 urmomdresslikafloozy wrote:
Are magazines really still a thing? I honestly havent seen one in years. I imagine that people that buy them are climate change deniers that love felling trees and increasing co2 emissions.

On November 25 2017 12:49 Plansix wrote:

Its imperial Japan, they spent a good chunk of time abusing china and raping the women of child to keep their soldiers happy. They had a whole handbook about it and everything. There isn't a lot of moral high ground for the treatment of civilians in WW2 on any side.

On November 25 2017 16:57 Furikawari wrote:


And here gentlemen is a typical occurence of history (re)writing by the winners.

On November 25 2017 16:59 Aquanim wrote:

Uh... are you saying the Rape of Nanking is not a real thing that happened?

On November 25 2017 17:22 a_flayer wrote:

I'm sure it happened and was an awful event.

I'm also sure it is no coincidence that US media dominates the world and that every US enemy are a bunch of rapists.

On November 25 2017 13:04 Falling wrote:

I would say all the way nope. Where was there a time where Thanksgiving was used to celebrate indigenous death? Washington used it to celebrate the conclusion of the Revolution, true. Lincoln used it towards the end of the Civil War to "“commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife” and to “heal the wounds of the nation.”" And very rarely were relations between indigenous and settlers as amicable as Tisquantum's contribution to the survival of the pilgrims and the following reciprocal feast. Nonetheless, it seems to me it has always been used an opportunity for thankfulness, rather than a celebration of death.

Additionally, English Major John Mason rallied his troops to further burn Pequot wigwams and then attacked and killed hundreds more men, women and children. According to Mason’s reports of the massacre, “We must burn them! Such a dreadful terror let the Almighty fall upon their spirits that they would flee from us and run into the very flames. Thus did the Lord judge the heathen, filling the place with dead bodies.”

The Governor of Plymouth William Bradford wrote: “Those that escaped the fire were slain with the sword; some hewed to pieces, others run through with their rapiers, so that they were quickly dispatched and very few escaped. It was conceived they thus destroyed about 400 at this time. It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying in the fire…horrible was the stink and scent thereof, but the victory seemed a sweet sacrifice, and they gave the prayers thereof to God, who had wrought so wonderfully for them.”

The day after the massacre, William Bradford who was also the Governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony, wrote that from that day forth shall be a day of celebration and thanks giving for subduing the Pequots and “For the next 100 years, every Thanksgiving Day ordained by a Governor was in honor of the bloody victory, thanking God that the battle had been won.”

On November 25 2017 17:30 Aquanim wrote:

I don't doubt that US media shades things, but I don't think that's a controversial statement either. If you're claiming they are making shit up from whole cloth that's a different statement, and I think you need to be exceptionally clear which of those you mean.

That being said: your statement is nearly entirely empty without concrete examples.

To return to our central point, are you saying you believe that in terms of moral high ground, the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan (plus the US imprisoning citizens of Japanese descent, plus all else the West did) outweigh the actions of the Japanese with respect to occupying China, prisoners of war, etc.?

On November 25 2017 17:46 mahrgell wrote:


Ah, so we are back to: "our only goal is to be slightly less shit than the others, let's discuss if we reached that or if we overshot".

Not sure why anybody would want to join that discussion.

On November 25 2017 17:32 GreenHorizons wrote:


Uh...



Source

Then after the civil war they white washed Thanksgiving and told the lie about how the separatists and Wampanoags got along so well.

It's nice that people use the holiday to celebrate other things too. But almost all of the pilgrim and indigenous people story is propaganda.

On November 25 2017 17:22 a_flayer wrote:

I'm sure it happened and was an awful event.

I'm also sure it is no coincidence that US media dominates the world and that every US enemy are a bunch of rapists.

I'm sure the northern barbarians raped plenty of women between 50 BC and 400 AD.

I'm also sure that it is no coincidence that Imperial Rome dominated the media of the era.

On November 25 2017 17:55 Introvert wrote:


You are doing that thing again where you take a few lines from a... strange source and use it to say something equally strange.

First and most obviously, none of that shows why the mentioned event is the one that spawns the national holiday. It was even acknowledged that a feast is held in 1621! I've never seen any evidence that the celebration in winning a fight was ever the impetus for TG.

I hate to refer to wikipedia, but one could look there and see the origins of the holiday laid out in a fairly clear way. The thanksgiving holiday has nothing to do with this fight or a slaughter.

I haven't seen that from any of my books written by left-wing historians, either. That I can remember.

On November 25 2017 18:06 Blisse wrote:


Fuck right off with this pretentious facetious bullshit.

China gives no shit about your shitty western media winners rewriting history conspiracy and every Chinese person you'll meet will have some stories of ancestral racism vs Japan because of this event. Take your shitty denial somewhere else.

Pyongyang, which saw 75 percent of its area destroyed, was so devastated that bombing was halted as there were no longer any worthy targets. On 28 November, Bomber Command reported on the campaign's progress: 95 percent of Manpojin was destroyed, along with 90 percent of Hoeryong, Namsi and Koindong, 85 percent of Chosan, 75 percent of both Sakchu and Huichon, and 20 percent of Uiju. According to USAF damage assessments, "eighteen of twenty-two major cities in North Korea had been at least half obliterated." By the end of the campaign, US bombers had difficulty in finding targets and were reduced to bombing footbridges or jettisoning their bombs into the sea.

On November 25 2017 17:30 Aquanim wrote:

I don't doubt that US media shades things, but I don't think that's a controversial statement either. If you're claiming they are making shit up (edit: on the scale of war crimes) from whole cloth that's a different statement, and I think you need to be exceptionally clear which of those you mean.

That being said: your statement is nearly entirely empty without concrete examples.

To return to our central point, are you saying you believe that in terms of moral high ground, the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan (plus the US imprisoning citizens of Japanese descent, plus all else the West did) outweigh the actions of the Japanese with respect to occupying China, prisoners of war, etc.?

On November 25 2017 18:17 GreenHorizons wrote:


You'd be amazed at how much you haven't heard of. Can't imagine why white history would have a very different version of events propagated than indigenous people...

There is absolutely no evidence the indigenous people that showed up to the feast in 1621 were invited. More that the separatists were terrified and wanted deer.

The national holiday was born out of tradition, the tradition was born out of slaughter (there were no more of the propaganda version of the 1621 feasts that was pretty much a one-off deal)

Part of the "peace" they are always referring to is the lack of indigenous people fighting them off.

Your first clue should be that no one called pilgrims, pilgrims when they were alive.

On November 25 2017 18:33 Introvert wrote:


I'm focused on the origin of the event, not if the nearby tribe showed up by accident or not. Either way it clearly didn't end with them all shooting each other. What is weird is why you think the 1636 event is the origin of the American Thanksgiving. The story people know, that the separatists were giving thanks for surviving a horrid winter, makes no mention of whether the event is recurring one or not. Perhaps someone has that impression. So what?

It doesn't matter if the indigenous were invited.
It doesn't matter if it was a one off event.
It doesn't matter if Squanto was a formerly captured native or not.
Yes, if no one is there to fight you, or chooses not to, then that certainly could be described as a "peace."

Those latter three are things people know, anyways. I have to conclude this is just Greenhorizons being Greenhorizons, where you draw together some loose "facts" or stories and assemble them in the way that makes the least sense but is best for the narrative. You must admit that you are asking that 3 paragraphs from "one of the premier indigenous peoples news publications" to do a LOT of leg work it hasn't offered to do. Though that doesn't stop it from leading with The Thanksgiving Day Celebration Originated From a Massacre and then doing virtually nothing to help it.

Not only do you have to show that there is any link between the two, but you have to show that it's stronger than the "propaganda" that is apparently being shoveled by all those apparently right-wing historians and professors. I know what debating you can be like (I learned it far before everyone else did in 2016), but thread readers should know that this perspective is not mainstream, to put it mildly.

William Bradford who was also the Governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony, wrote that from that day forth shall be a day of celebration and thanks giving for subduing the Pequots and “For the next 100 years, every Thanksgiving Day ordained by a Governor was in honor of the bloody victory

On November 25 2017 18:42 GreenHorizons wrote:




It kinda does matter if they were invited because it changes the story, along with the other information. As opposed to the whitewashed and misleading version you're familiar with.

The whole dinner was a one-off thing (that happened very differently) that was romanticized and lied about until people forgot that it was a one off thing and all the savagery those same (along with new) separatists were celebrating afterwords.

But yeah so what if we neglect to mention the slavery part of Squanto or anything else that would spoil the commercial propaganda that still references that dinner as something it never was.

On November 25 2017 18:50 Introvert wrote:


I'm not disputing that certain parts of the story as many people know can be wrong (although in my estimation you are overplaying that part)-- but that's true for lots of events, and events are retold from every side (this happened a crapton in the Revolutionary War). However, it remains true that the basis of the Thanksgiving Holiday is not a massacre. It is in fact the feast of 1621.

Edit: I see now that you re upped that Bradford quote. Still no connection to the thanksgiving we know has been provided. Some would argue that there is, but it's weak and from what I can tell most historians know it.

On November 25 2017 17:32 GreenHorizons wrote:


Uh...



Source

Then after the civil war they white washed Thanksgiving and told the lie about how the separatists and Wampanoags got along so well.

It's nice that people use the holiday to celebrate other things too. But almost all of the pilgrim and indigenous people story is propaganda.

On November 25 2017 19:33 Wegandi wrote:


Let's not whitewash the Native American tribes either. Conflict was rampant and there were killings and slayings and aggressive violence on both sides in relation to the fur trade. This narrative that Native Americans were peaceful people and didn't do anything to suggest the acts on colonists behalves is as much propaganda. When two sides are awful, picking one or the other is generally not a good proposition for moral high-ground (unless of course, you're a moral relativist and just hate white people, or vice versa).