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On November 17 2017 02:44 IgnE wrote: theres no way, barring further disclosures by more women, that franken resigns.
Yeah if it's just one woman telling one story then people can come up with all types of justifications 'shes exaggerating' 'he fucked up once 20 years ago' etc and then people are like, meh. The thing is that it seems like it's virtually always a pattern once someone is implicated in one of these.
The kissing story as portrayed by her sounds pretty damn pathetic on his behalf, but that grope picture doesn't look like he's actually grabbing anything, just posing, and in a way that was 'kinda socially acceptable as a joke' back then. As long as it's just this one happening then I don't really care tbh, but I'm also somewhat expecting more women to come forward.
Yeah, the picture is totally benign imo. If anyone else comes out about sexual stuff, he's definitely toast. But if it stays as just 1, I imagine he sticks around.
i have friends with... odd senses of humor. there are a lot of pictures of me asleep with funny things being done to me. for example, i've woken up with a dildo in one hand, my nails painted, etc.
there's a difference because i'm a guy and the people messing with me are friends, but i'd say messing/ posing with people while sleeping is largely benign.
Same. This is my thinking as well. The dude clearly did not pose for a picture with a thumbs up to celebrate sexual assault. But there may be two totally separate issues. Pretending your sleeping friend is blowing you is not the same as actually groping someone. If he's actually being a creeper to people, he's gotta go. But if he just takes silly pictures like millions of other Americans do with their friends, he has done nothing wrong.
Id say that her account puts them solidly in the 'not friends' department
On November 17 2017 02:44 IgnE wrote: theres no way, barring further disclosures by more women, that franken resigns.
Yeah if it's just one woman telling one story then people can come up with all types of justifications 'shes exaggerating' 'he fucked up once 20 years ago' etc and then people are like, meh. The thing is that it seems like it's virtually always a pattern once someone is implicated in one of these.
The kissing story as portrayed by her sounds pretty damn pathetic on his behalf, but that grope picture doesn't look like he's actually grabbing anything, just posing, and in a way that was 'kinda socially acceptable as a joke' back then. As long as it's just this one happening then I don't really care tbh, but I'm also somewhat expecting more women to come forward.
Yeah, the picture is totally benign imo. If anyone else comes out about sexual stuff, he's definitely toast. But if it stays as just 1, I imagine he sticks around.
I don't think I agree with the overall sentiment (that it is benign), but one thing that makes a big different from other allegations is that there appears to have been no attempt to cover it up, intimidate the woman, or otherwise bury the allegation/story. It makes a big difference, especially in regards to the sincerity of his apology (which is probably still not 'good enough').
EDIT: This was written without seeing Plansix's post
in isolation, i would say the picture is nothing. maybe like a 4/10 in terms of inappropriateness. far as evidence of a pattern of sexual assault, it's pretty weak.
so it goes back to her account vs. his account. i lean heavily towards believe the victim, but the entire situation strikes me as just a little odd. at least i will hold off judgement until we can hear from other people on the trip.
On November 17 2017 02:44 IgnE wrote: theres no way, barring further disclosures by more women, that franken resigns.
Yeah if it's just one woman telling one story then people can come up with all types of justifications 'shes exaggerating' 'he fucked up once 20 years ago' etc and then people are like, meh. The thing is that it seems like it's virtually always a pattern once someone is implicated in one of these.
The kissing story as portrayed by her sounds pretty damn pathetic on his behalf, but that grope picture doesn't look like he's actually grabbing anything, just posing, and in a way that was 'kinda socially acceptable as a joke' back then. As long as it's just this one happening then I don't really care tbh, but I'm also somewhat expecting more women to come forward.
Yeah, the picture is totally benign imo. If anyone else comes out about sexual stuff, he's definitely toast. But if it stays as just 1, I imagine he sticks around.
i have friends with... odd senses of humor. there are a lot of pictures of me asleep with funny things being done to me. for example, i've woken up with a dildo in one hand, my nails painted, etc.
there's a difference because i'm a guy and the people messing with me are friends, but i'd say messing/ posing with people while sleeping is largely benign.
Same. This is my thinking as well. The dude clearly did not pose for a picture with a thumbs up to celebrate sexual assault. But there may be two totally separate issues. Pretending your sleeping friend is blowing you is not the same as actually groping someone. If he's actually being a creeper to people, he's gotta go. But if he just takes silly pictures like millions of other Americans do with their friends, he has done nothing wrong.
Id say that her account puts them solidly in the 'not friends' department
I think her account paints the picture that Franken thought they were friends and that Franken was mistaken. Which, BTW, is probably the case with a lot of sexual harassment.
Franken is going to cooperate with the ethics investigation, I say let that happen and see what shakes out. They should turn up if it was a pattern.
This is probably the best way he could have handled it. It would be nice to get a women's perspective on it though. Do we have any women on this thread? Or is there twitter accounts of women's reaction to the statement?
On November 17 2017 02:44 IgnE wrote: theres no way, barring further disclosures by more women, that franken resigns.
Yeah if it's just one woman telling one story then people can come up with all types of justifications 'shes exaggerating' 'he fucked up once 20 years ago' etc and then people are like, meh. The thing is that it seems like it's virtually always a pattern once someone is implicated in one of these.
The kissing story as portrayed by her sounds pretty damn pathetic on his behalf, but that grope picture doesn't look like he's actually grabbing anything, just posing, and in a way that was 'kinda socially acceptable as a joke' back then. As long as it's just this one happening then I don't really care tbh, but I'm also somewhat expecting more women to come forward.
Yeah, the picture is totally benign imo. If anyone else comes out about sexual stuff, he's definitely toast. But if it stays as just 1, I imagine he sticks around.
i have friends with... odd senses of humor. there are a lot of pictures of me asleep with funny things being done to me. for example, i've woken up with a dildo in one hand, my nails painted, etc.
there's a difference because i'm a guy and the people messing with me are friends, but i'd say messing/ posing with people while sleeping is largely benign.
Same. This is my thinking as well. The dude clearly did not pose for a picture with a thumbs up to celebrate sexual assault. But there may be two totally separate issues. Pretending your sleeping friend is blowing you is not the same as actually groping someone. If he's actually being a creeper to people, he's gotta go. But if he just takes silly pictures like millions of other Americans do with their friends, he has done nothing wrong.
Id say that her account puts them solidly in the 'not friends' department
So let's say worst case scenario he made a really distasteful joke with someone he shouldn't have. That sucks, but I'd never ask him to resign over it. There is an enormous difference between someone victimizing someone else for sexual gratification vs for a few laughs for some other people. If this sort of thing upset the woman, I think Franken done goofed. But the dude is a comedian. It all comes down to intent. If he made what he thought to be a harmless joke that she was totally not ok with, that makes him an ass rather than a predator. If he has a pattern of doing this often, it is more than being an ass. But a single instance of the dude playing a dorm room prank and having someone take a picture of it, clearly for fun, plain and simply doesn't have the same deviancy as other big sexual assault stories we're seeing.
If there's anything more to this, I hope he is ejected. But the picture alone, for me, is not enough to remove him.
I really do hate the intent defense. Outcomes matter, intent doesn’t. If that woman felt violated due to the photo, then it’s gross and terrible. Even Frankin says he is embarrassed by it. Intent is the most minor of mitigating factors.
On November 17 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote: I really do hate the intent defense. Outcomes matter, intent doesn’t. If that woman felt violated due to the photo, then it’s gross and terrible. Even Frankin says he is embarrassed by it. Intent is the most minor of mitigating factors.
I can agree with this, but I suppose it depends on what we are saying should happen. Let's say Franken has no other people come out saying he took pictures like this. It's just this woman. He's an ass and he should not have done it. But should he remain a senator? That's the question I'm asking, I guess. The reason intent matters to me in this case is the fact that it is a single case. Being an ass at some point is totally fine to me. So long as it is very rare, with no pattern etc. Once there is a pattern, it is a part of who that person is, rather than a 1-off.
On November 17 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote: I really do hate the intent defense. Outcomes matter, intent doesn’t. If that woman felt violated due to the photo, then it’s gross and terrible. Even Frankin says he is embarrassed by it. Intent is the most minor of mitigating factors.
It's kind of weird how the comedians(past or present) are the ones responding to allegations against them the most properly.
Because they probably deal with it more? Often in the form of people who think their jokes are offensive in some way I imagine.
My favorite phrase: “If no one laughs at an offensive joke, it’s just offensive” is from a comedian talking about work shopping jokes.
Intent makes a world of difference because ignorance can be fixed. If someone makes an offensive joke intending it to be funny, then he will stop making them when he learns they're not funny. If someone acts like an asshole because his intention is making people suffer and be upst, then people being hurt and upset is going to make him want to do it more.
On November 17 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote: I really do hate the intent defense. Outcomes matter, intent doesn’t. If that woman felt violated due to the photo, then it’s gross and terrible. Even Frankin says he is embarrassed by it. Intent is the most minor of mitigating factors.
I can agree with this, but I suppose it depends on what we are saying should happen. Let's say Franken has no other people come out saying he took pictures like this. It's just this woman. He's an ass and he should not have done it. But should he remain a senator? That's the question I'm asking, I guess. The reason intent matters to me in this case is the fact that it is a single case. Being an ass at some point is totally fine to me. So long as it is very rare, with no pattern etc. Once there is a pattern, it is a part of who that person is, rather than a 1-off.
It isn't just this photo, FYI. And that is for an ethics investigation to resolve and the senate to figure out. I can’t say I am comfortable with him in the senate given the current allegations.
Can we not do better in congress than "he's an ass and should not have done it"? I don't require criminal convictions for my public servants to resign, if they're not capable of respectfully representing their constituents then get rid of them and get someone who can. Most jobs don't require criminality to get fired, just incompetence.
On November 17 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote: Can we not do better in congress than "he's an ass and should not have done it"? I don't require criminal convictions for my public servants to resign, if they're not capable of respectfully representing their constituents then get rid of them and get someone who can. Most jobs don't require criminality to get fired, just incompetence.
I think every position in society must allow for 'he was an ass and shouldn't have done it' when dealing with singular instances and events that happened 20 years back in time.
I love how this is a 'big' thing and when they just had a hearing where it was said that 2 sitting members of congress exposed themselves to Capital Hill staff and almost no one gave a shit.
On November 17 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote: Can we not do better in congress than "he's an ass and should not have done it"? I don't require criminal convictions for my public servants to resign, if they're not capable of respectfully representing their constituents then get rid of them and get someone who can. Most jobs don't require criminality to get fired, just incompetence.
I think every position in society must allow for 'he was an ass and shouldn't have done it' when dealing with singular instances and events that happened 20 years back in time.
2006 was only 11 years ago, and only 2.5 years before he became a senator. i only mention it since it’s not the first time you’ve said so.
Ah, my bad, I thought it was from his SNL days. 11 years ago is worse, but it's still plausible to me that someone could do this back then and genuinely realize that it's wrong today.
EPT
