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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On October 14 2017 16:38 KwarK wrote:
I think it's absurd that the rational response to the lunatic in the Oval Office is being treated as journalistic bias. This is the fallacy of the middle ground. If one person says the earth is 6000 years old and the other says 4 billion then the neutral position is not that it is 2 billion.
There is simply no way to report on Trump without reporting negatively. The man is irredeemable. The fault is with the subject matter.
And the one person likes to think himself as the most accomplished president ever so the opinion of the other person will always look harsh in comparison, no matter how truthful.
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On October 14 2017 18:35 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 16:38 KwarK wrote:
I think it's absurd that the rational response to the lunatic in the Oval Office is being treated as journalistic bias. This is the fallacy of the middle ground. If one person says the earth is 6000 years old and the other says 4 billion then the neutral position is not that it is 2 billion.
There is simply no way to report on Trump without reporting negatively. The man is irredeemable. The fault is with the subject matter. And the one person likes to think himself as the most accomplished president ever so the opinion of the other person will always look harsh in comparison, no matter how truthful. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/919012714827145216
What. The. Hell...
I'm reading a biography of Washington and I just can't help thinking how badly Trump voters spat in the face of the founding fathers by putting such a ridiculous and pompous clown in their office. This guy is an insult to american history.
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On October 14 2017 18:35 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 16:38 KwarK wrote:
I think it's absurd that the rational response to the lunatic in the Oval Office is being treated as journalistic bias. This is the fallacy of the middle ground. If one person says the earth is 6000 years old and the other says 4 billion then the neutral position is not that it is 2 billion.
There is simply no way to report on Trump without reporting negatively. The man is irredeemable. The fault is with the subject matter. And the one person likes to think himself as the most accomplished president ever so the opinion of the other person will always look harsh in comparison, no matter how truthful. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/919012714827145216
What? No, he can't have tweeted that. I didn't think he could still surprise me, but that's so obviously and dangerously deranged, it's really shaking me up.
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Mississippi continues to impress.
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On October 14 2017 13:54 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 13:24 Danglars wrote:On October 14 2017 13:05 Plansix wrote:
I expect to see more of these. I want to see a first amendment case if they try it at a public college. It could get interesting. That depends largely on whether there is any distinction between public schools and post-secondary institutions. I wouldn't see a logical basis for it. Show nested quote +The Court held, in a 6-to-3 decision delivered by Justice Jackson, that it was unconstitutional for public schools to compel students to salute the flag. It thus overruled its decision in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, finding that the flag salute was "a form of utterance" and "a primitive but effective means of communicating ideas." "Compulsory unification of opinion," the Court wrote, was doomed to failure and was antithetical to the values set forth in the First Amendment. The Court eloquently stated: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._BarnetteMoreover, this underscores the sheer audacity Trump displays by trying to do the same to NFL players.
I've posted this same exact thing a few pages back, and no one said anything. Trumpsters swear the courts are going to force people to stand for the pledge...
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But black people should toooootally suck it up when it comes to Confederate statues in public, amirite?
The hypocrisy is terrible.
Also, fun random mistake that made me chuckle/ facepalm: Donald Trump said he met with the president of The Virgin Islands.
Donald Trump *is* the president of The Virgin Islands.
Although we really should just rename them The Islands at this point, considering Trump has pretty much fucked over everyone.
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On October 14 2017 21:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:But black people should toooootally suck it up when it comes to Confederate statues in public, amirite? The hypocrisy is terrible. Also, fun random mistake that made me chuckle/ facepalm: Donald Trump said he met with the president of The Virgin Islands. Donald Trump *is* the president of The Virgin Islands. Although we really should just rename them The Islands at this point, considering Trump has pretty much fucked over everyone.
I think you are jumping to conclusions here. As far as I can tell the source doesn't mention who were made to feel "uncomfortable"?
For all we know there might very well be an overlap between those who want the book pulled and those who want to destroy the statues. Considering who usually acts outraged over the book and who starts the ever-repeating discussion of whether or not "nigger" should be censored when reading it, that seems more than likely.
I'm also unsure whether or not Plansix is actually impressed or not (I'm guessing the latter?). His prior positions on literature, free speech, and censorship makes it somewhat difficult to figure out though.
EDIT: My bad, there was a secondary link in the first:
http://www.sunherald.com/news/local/counties/harrison-county/article178572326.html
The book was allegedly pulled because of the word "nigger".
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If you wanna nitpick be sure to remember that you can be impressed by the stupidity and the amount of hyporcrisy as well.
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If you want to allege nitpicking in an attempt to deflect you should probably double-check your spelling. The irony is de_licious.
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On October 14 2017 21:45 Ghostcom wrote:
If you want to allege nitpicking in an attempt to deflect you should probably double-check your spelling. The irony is de_licious.
you sure are hot at it today
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As always nice to see you address the substance.
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Norway28675 Posts
Same thing has been happening with the adventures of huckleberry finn. I think it's unfortunate, but I can also sympathize with teachers who find it difficult to have like, loud reading from a book where the word 'nigger' is repeated with high frequency and where the pupils/students are all pausing and kinda thinking 'can I say this?' whenever they get to that word. And then when they do say it it ends up with this Randy Marsh southpark-esque enunciation. A skilled teacher should be able to handle this, though.
Funny how the article from ghostcom led me to this though : http://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/top10
The books that are by far most frequently subject to complains deal with sexuality, and for the last couple years, LGBT issues. Looks like the prudes are still the biggest snowflakes. 
How a wonderful book like the curious incident of the dog in the night-time can make a such list, that is beyond me.
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On October 14 2017 21:51 Ghostcom wrote:
As always nice to see you address the substance.
Relax, fellow forum member.
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I really can't sympathize with the teacher. It is a golden opportunity for the teacher to address the importance of historical context and to address some of the racial issues splitting the US.
It's a shame any time a book is censored - but maybe some small consolation can be gained from the trend towards a decreasing number of annual challenges based on Liquid'Drones link.
EDIT: I'm completely calm. Stop trolling. You are at best a C-tier shitposter - you lack the wit and panache of someone like baller.
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On October 14 2017 22:22 Ghostcom wrote:
I really can't sympathize with the teacher. It is a golden opportunity for the teacher to address the importance of historical context and to address some of the racial issues splitting the US.
It's a shame any time a book is censored - but maybe some small consolation can be gained from the trend towards a decreasing number of annual challenges based on Liquid'Drones link.
EDIT: I'm completely calm. Stop trolling. You are at best a C-tier shitposter - you lack the wit and panache of someone like baller.
One should mention that "not on school reading list" is not the same as "censored". You can still read the book whenever you want to, you are just not forced to do so in school.
And books in school is hard in my opinion. I think that very often, the books are just to "educational" or "valuable". To children and teenagers, that usually also means "boring". And one of the main objectives of reading books in school should be to make children enjoy reading. Those of us who come from a family where reading is just a normal pasttime are lucky in this regard. But those who are only exposed to reading in school will probably not see that as something they would do for fun, simply because all of the books are so carefully selected for educational value rather than reading fun.
And that leads to situations where children are simply unable to understand simple sentences when reading them, because they are not used to reading. This is a phenomenon that i often notice when teaching maths to children. Many can solve the problem after i tell them what the question is, but not after reading the same question. Because they are so unused to reading that reading the question is a task they must concentrate on, meaning that they don't have any cognitive capacity left to actually understand what is written.
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On October 14 2017 22:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:Same thing has been happening with the adventures of huckleberry finn. I think it's unfortunate, but I can also sympathize with teachers who find it difficult to have like, loud reading from a book where the word 'nigger' is repeated with high frequency and where the pupils/students are all pausing and kinda thinking 'can I say this?' whenever they get to that word. And then when they do say it it ends up with this Randy Marsh southpark-esque enunciation. A skilled teacher should be able to handle this, though. Funny how the article from ghostcom led me to this though : http://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/top10The books that are by far most frequently subject to complains deal with sexuality, and for the last couple years, LGBT issues. Looks like the prudes are still the biggest snowflakes. How a wonderful book like the curious incident of the dog in the night-time can make a such list, that is beyond me.
So you are ok with classic books being censored because of "bad words" and incompetent teachers? Sorry there is nothing to simpathize with that.
At what age are school kids allowed to read books for class with "sexually explicit (LGBT content or not)"? I don't think anyone under 14 should, guess I'm a prude.
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On October 14 2017 22:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:Same thing has been happening with the adventures of huckleberry finn. I think it's unfortunate, but I can also sympathize with teachers who find it difficult to have like, loud reading from a book where the word 'nigger' is repeated with high frequency and where the pupils/students are all pausing and kinda thinking 'can I say this?' whenever they get to that word. And then when they do say it it ends up with this Randy Marsh southpark-esque enunciation. A skilled teacher should be able to handle this, though. Funny how the article from ghostcom led me to this though : http://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/top10The books that are by far most frequently subject to complains deal with sexuality, and for the last couple years, LGBT issues. Looks like the prudes are still the biggest snowflakes. How a wonderful book like the curious incident of the dog in the night-time can make a such list, that is beyond me.
Book cowardice is only the tip of the iceberg; charter school policies pushed by DeVos and her ilk render most private institutions totally immune to state mandated curriculum standards. Here in Michigan, for example, charter schools can do pretty much anything they want so long as shareholders approve.
The crisis at Carver Academy was not unfolding in isolation. Michigan’s aggressively free-market approach to schools has resulted in one of the most deregulated educational environments in the country, a laboratory in which consumer choice and a shifting landscape of supply and demand (and profit motive, in the case of many charters) were pitched as ways to improve life in the classroom for the state’s 1.5 million public-school students. But a Brookings Institution analysis done this year of national test scores ranked Michigan last among all states when it came to improvements in student proficiency. And a 2016 analysis by the Education Trust-Midwest, a nonpartisan education policy and research organization, found that 70 percent of Michigan charters were in the bottom half of the state’s rankings. Michigan has the most for-profit charter schools in the country and some of the least state oversight. Even staunch charter advocates have blanched at the Michigan model.
The story of Carver is the story of Michigan’s grand educational experiment writ small. It spans more than two decades, three governors and, now, the United States Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos, whose relentless advocacy for unchecked “school choice” in her home state might soon, her critics fear, be going national. But it’s important to understand that what happened to Michigan’s schools isn’t solely, or even primarily, an education story: It’s a business story. Today in Michigan, hundreds of nonprofit public charters have become potential financial assets to outside entities, inevitably complicating their broader social missions. In the case of Carver, interested parties have included a for-profit educational management organization, or E.M.O., in Georgia; an Indian tribe in a remote section of Michigan’s Upper Peninsula; and a financial firm in Minnesota. “That’s all it is now — it’s moneymaking,” Darrel Redrick, a charter-school proponent and an administrator at Carver at the time I visited, told me.
Redrick can pinpoint the precise moment he experienced this revelation: “One of my former principals — this is like 10 years ago, at another school — he said: ‘Redrick, I can tell you why we don’t kick kids out. This child right here represents $6,700.’ ” The principal was referring to the per-pupil state funding at the time. “And if you put out 10 kids, Red,” the principal went on, “that’s about $70,000. And where are we going to get that money?”
To understand Michigan’s educational system, it’s crucial to consider the decades-long ideological battle waged by groups like the Mackinac Center for Public Policy. In 2013, the Michigan-based conservative think tank released a celebratory analysis of the privatization of the Highland Park school system, noting that charterizing an entire district was “unprecedented at the time.” A 13-minute video released with the report, titled “The Highland Park Transformation,” opened with slow-panning, verité-horror-film footage of derelict public school buildings, including a shot of a filthy toilet. Bill Coats, chief executive of Leona Group, the for-profit charter operator that took over the district, told the filmmakers that Highland Park’s public schools “had the resources, all right? They just blew them.”
Michigan Gambled on Charter Schools.Its Children Lost.
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On October 14 2017 22:22 Ghostcom wrote:
I really can't sympathize with the teacher. It is a golden opportunity for the teacher to address the importance of historical context and to address some of the racial issues splitting the US.
It's a shame any time a book is censored - but maybe some small consolation can be gained from the trend towards a decreasing number of annual challenges based on Liquid'Drones link.
EDIT: I'm completely calm. Stop trolling. You are at best a C-tier shitposter - you lack the wit and panache of someone like baller.
I'm sorry, but that only sounds sensible to someone unfamiliar with Mississippi.
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Norway28675 Posts
I can sympathize in the same sense I sympathize with parents who are uncomfortable with sexual education. Lack of comfort isn't a valid excuse to not do it (a less comfortable learning setting might well lead to a more meaningful learning experience), but I still understand why many want an easier way out. I also think that if there are 5 black students who express being offended by the white students who kinda giggle before saying 'nigger', then I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that I should tell them to deal with it, or any version thereof.. There can be a multitude of reasons why they've chosen to do this. And like I said, I'm not a fan, but I think there are somewhat valid reasons - even if I also think the reasons why they should be conscious to teach controversial books with controversial language are more valid.
For the adventures of huckleberry finn, you can see that it was #5 in 2007, and I suspect that the reason why it doesn't feature on later lists is a) many schools stopped using it and b) some started using an alternate version where the word nigger was swapped for the word slave. I used this subject while teaching a class like 7 years ago, and if I remember correctly, black students being uncomfortable with white people saying nigger (and them continuing to do so after the book-reading session was over, as if the experience of reading the book together had rehabilitated use of the word after class was over) was the primary reason why they pulled it/ started with the alternate version. In a way, I'm more comfortable with this, than I am with parents challenging books on behalf of their children.
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On October 14 2017 22:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 22:22 Ghostcom wrote:
I really can't sympathize with the teacher. It is a golden opportunity for the teacher to address the importance of historical context and to address some of the racial issues splitting the US.
It's a shame any time a book is censored - but maybe some small consolation can be gained from the trend towards a decreasing number of annual challenges based on Liquid'Drones link.
EDIT: I'm completely calm. Stop trolling. You are at best a C-tier shitposter - you lack the wit and panache of someone like baller. I'm sorry, but that only sounds sensible to someone unfamiliar with Mississippi.
Try again - preferably with something resembling substance as an argument the next time around.
EDIT: Oh wait it's you. Nevermind - I'm not up for spending the afternoon getting repeatedly strawmanned and insulted.
EDIT2:
This:
I can sympathize in the same sense I sympathize with parents who are uncomfortable with sexual education. Lack of comfort isn't a valid excuse to not do it (a less comfortable learning setting might well lead to a more meaningful learning experience), but I still understand why many want an easier way out.
I can agree with.
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EPT
