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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-13 23:40:50
October 13 2017 23:39 GMT
#179841
On October 14 2017 08:22 Howie_Dewitt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 08:19 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:

Manafort is so boned lmao


Yep.

The hole he dug is collapsing, and there's a hell of a lot of dirt there.

It'll be interesting to see who else in the Trump circles gets swallowed up with Manafort over the next few months.

Edit::

Found the related article:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/manafort-had-60m-relationship-russian-oligarch-n810541
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4858 Posts
October 13 2017 23:45 GMT
#179842
On October 14 2017 08:11 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:
On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote:
the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still.
but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs


If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president.

edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified."

I'm not surprised you need to dissemble to cover for the misconduct of the republicans, and are unable to own up to their gross failure to do their job.
It coudln't get 67 votes because, exactly as I had already stated, the rpeublicans chose ot play cheap politics at the expense of america's national security.
so it remains entirely the fault of the republicans. If they weren't damaging the country for petty partisanship, then it would've been submitted as a treaty, and approved as one.
so do try to keep up, instead of pretending with nonsense points like you just did wherein you falsely try to put the onus on obama rather than the actual guilty party.


Trump's actions are enabled because this deal is a "executive agreement" and thus subject to the will of the executive. It's an executive agreement because that was the logic Obama used because he wanted it hell or high water.He also then signed the Corker-Cardin bill.

On October 14 2017 08:15 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:
On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote:
the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still.
but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs


If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president.

edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified."

Yeah, you can never have the full win with Trump.

And that would be "Congress Corker did some gymnastics, came up with the Corker bill that ceded Senatorial treaty power, and convinced enough pussyfooting senators to wuss out with him. Naturally, they all can come together with tough words condemning the deal later!


Don't forget Ben Sasse. Someone I want to like but it seems like twitter is his primary mode of activism, while not really doing a whole lot and of course passing off on this deal.

On October 14 2017 08:22 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 07:34 Introvert wrote:
Good thing we have a constitution so that Trump can't violate treaties. Unfortunately for Obama and those in favor of the deal, this was an "executive agreement" not a treaty. The legislation passed by Congress with the intent of doing an end run around the treaty clause enables Trump' s actions today.

That is because congressional republicans didn't want to approve Obamas deal, but also didn't want to be the ones to kill it. They don't have a problem with the deal except that Obama made it. A few have objections, but not strong enough to be the ones who kill the deal with Iran. So they punted and put the burden on the executive branch. So now they have to deal with it now because Trump is a child.


You are free to continue looking at this entirely through the lens of Obama hatred, it works for me because if one doesn't know the problems he/she has they make wrong diagnoses and let the other side in the door.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6215 Posts
October 13 2017 23:45 GMT
#179843
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/355360-15-states-sue-over-trump-halted-obamacare-payments

15 states suing over the obamacare payments thing already. We'll probably see another large group sign on over the next few weeks.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 13 2017 23:49 GMT
#179844
intro, you did not counter the arguments and points I posted, so way to prove you're a partisan hack engaging in disingenuous posting and gymnastics to pretend it's not the republicans fault. reposting your point, while ignoring that your point was already countered, sad.
whatever it takes to let you sleep at night.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 13 2017 23:52 GMT
#179845
On October 14 2017 08:45 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 08:11 zlefin wrote:
On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:
On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote:
the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still.
but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs


If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president.

edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified."

I'm not surprised you need to dissemble to cover for the misconduct of the republicans, and are unable to own up to their gross failure to do their job.
It coudln't get 67 votes because, exactly as I had already stated, the rpeublicans chose ot play cheap politics at the expense of america's national security.
so it remains entirely the fault of the republicans. If they weren't damaging the country for petty partisanship, then it would've been submitted as a treaty, and approved as one.
so do try to keep up, instead of pretending with nonsense points like you just did wherein you falsely try to put the onus on obama rather than the actual guilty party.


Trump's actions are enabled because this deal is a "executive agreement" and thus subject to the will of the executive. It's an executive agreement because that was the logic Obama used because he wanted it hell or high water.He also then signed the Corker-Cardin bill.

Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 08:15 Danglars wrote:
On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:
On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote:
the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still.
but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs


If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president.

edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified."

Yeah, you can never have the full win with Trump.

And that would be "Congress Corker did some gymnastics, came up with the Corker bill that ceded Senatorial treaty power, and convinced enough pussyfooting senators to wuss out with him. Naturally, they all can come together with tough words condemning the deal later!


Don't forget Ben Sasse. Someone I want to like but it seems like twitter is his primary mode of activism, while not really doing a whole lot and of course passing off on this deal.

Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 08:22 Plansix wrote:
On October 14 2017 07:34 Introvert wrote:
Good thing we have a constitution so that Trump can't violate treaties. Unfortunately for Obama and those in favor of the deal, this was an "executive agreement" not a treaty. The legislation passed by Congress with the intent of doing an end run around the treaty clause enables Trump' s actions today.

That is because congressional republicans didn't want to approve Obamas deal, but also didn't want to be the ones to kill it. They don't have a problem with the deal except that Obama made it. A few have objections, but not strong enough to be the ones who kill the deal with Iran. So they punted and put the burden on the executive branch. So now they have to deal with it now because Trump is a child.


You are free to continue looking at this entirely through the lens of Obama hatred, it works for me because if one doesn't know the problems he/she has they make wrong diagnoses and let the other side in the door.

That is the same congress that denied Obama a Supreme Court appointment, so my assessment is on point.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-14 00:22:09
October 13 2017 23:58 GMT
#179846
On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 08:15 Danglars wrote:
On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:
On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote:
the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still.
but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs


If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president.

edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified."

Yeah, you can never have the full win with Trump.

And that would be "Congress Corker did some gymnastics, came up with the Corker bill that ceded Senatorial treaty power, and convinced enough pussyfooting senators to wuss out with him. Naturally, they all can come together with tough words condemning the deal later!


Don't forget Ben Sasse. Someone I want to like but it seems like twitter is his primary mode of activism, while not really doing a whole lot and of course passing off on this deal.

Yeah, Sasse has been a dissapointment. He could have a lot of credibility right now if he acted consistently in the past years.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 14 2017 01:53 GMT
#179847
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 14 2017 01:56 GMT
#179848
On October 14 2017 06:02 fish_radio wrote:
==

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/trump-says-he-met-with-the-president-of-the-virgin-islands/2017/10/13/7d3d9362-b024-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_video.html

Stuff like this is just a standard gaffe for pretty much any politician. It's no more important than "57 states" or any of the various Bushisms ("fool me twice... don't get fooled again")
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 14 2017 02:22 GMT
#179849
To the newsroom:

The New York Times has been a dominant force on social media for years. Our newsroom accounts have tens of millions of followers. Many of our journalists are influential voices on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and other platforms. The voices of our readers, listeners and viewers inform and improve our reporting.

Continue reading the main story
RECENT COMMENTS

LWF 3 hours ago
There are many comments here saying this policy is a waste of time because everyone already knows that Times reporters are terribly biased...
D10S 3 hours ago
Just report and I mean report (state facts not opinions) and everything will fall in place. Why will anyone trust you if 90% of your...
Shelley 3 hours ago
You're wrong on this. A professional can cover a story dispassionately and still have strong personal opinions. More importantly, you're...
SEE ALL COMMENTS WRITE A COMMENT
We believe that to remain the world’s best news organization, we have to maintain a vibrant presence on social media.

But we also need to make sure that we are engaging responsibly on social media, in line with the values of our newsroom.

That’s why we’re issuing updated and expanded social media guidelines.

The guidelines were developed in a collaborative way by Cliff Levy, Phil Corbett and Cynthia Collins, and are rooted in the very experiences of our journalists.

Please read them closely, and take them to heart.

— Dean Baquet, Executive Editor

• In social media posts, our journalists must not express partisan opinions, promote political views, endorse candidates, make offensive comments or do anything else that undercuts The Times’s journalistic reputation.

• Our journalists should be especially mindful of appearing to take sides on issues that The Times is seeking to cover objectively.

• These guidelines apply to everyone in every department of the newsroom, including those not involved in coverage of government and politics.

• If you are linking to other sources, aim to reflect a diverse collection of viewpoints. Sharing a range of news, opinions or satire from others is usually appropriate. But consistently linking to only one side of a debate can leave the impression that you, too, are taking sides.


New York Times

Interesting that the NYT is the first to do this publically.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 14 2017 02:31 GMT
#179850
sounds like pretty typical standards already in use; I'm not seeing much of a difference from standard operating procedures everywhere already.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 14 2017 04:05 GMT
#179851


I expect to see more of these.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 14 2017 04:24 GMT
#179852
On October 14 2017 13:05 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/918644789645635584

I expect to see more of these.

I want to see a first amendment case if they try it at a public college. It could get interesting.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 14 2017 04:26 GMT
#179853
On October 14 2017 11:31 zlefin wrote:
sounds like pretty typical standards already in use; I'm not seeing much of a difference from standard operating procedures everywhere already.

Pretty funny, zlefin. But we’ll see if they’ll change from this. Trump obsession and paranoia is very much in vogue.

Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 14 2017 04:41 GMT
#179854
NYT is nowhere near as absurdly grudge-loving as Washington Post or CNN. They have their bias but they still do have journalistic standards. The latter just spend every waking moment spreading piss fires because they find yellow press journalism and grandstanding to be profitable, or something.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23451 Posts
October 14 2017 04:43 GMT
#179855
On October 14 2017 13:24 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 13:05 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/918644789645635584

I expect to see more of these.

I want to see a first amendment case if they try it at a public college. It could get interesting.


Why and why?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 14 2017 04:47 GMT
#179856
I'm pretty sure the court has ruled in the past that high schoolers don't have constitutional rights so it would be a very boring case.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-14 04:55:41
October 14 2017 04:54 GMT
#179857
On October 14 2017 13:24 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 13:05 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/918644789645635584

I expect to see more of these.

I want to see a first amendment case if they try it at a public college. It could get interesting.

That depends largely on whether there is any distinction between public schools and post-secondary institutions. I wouldn't see a logical basis for it.

The Court held, in a 6-to-3 decision delivered by Justice Jackson, that it was unconstitutional for public schools to compel students to salute the flag. It thus overruled its decision in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, finding that the flag salute was "a form of utterance" and "a primitive but effective means of communicating ideas." "Compulsory unification of opinion," the Court wrote, was doomed to failure and was antithetical to the values set forth in the First Amendment. The Court eloquently stated: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

Moreover, this underscores the sheer audacity Trump displays by trying to do the same to NFL players.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23451 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-14 05:02:25
October 14 2017 04:59 GMT
#179858
On October 14 2017 13:47 Nevuk wrote:
I'm pretty sure the court has ruled in the past that high schoolers don't have constitutional rights so it would be a very boring case.


They have some and not others and the legal grounds are basically "yeah shut the kids up". Essentially the schools responsibility for safety trumps kids constitutional rights because some old assholes said so.

Though Sunshine points out that they aren't (supposed) to be able to compel you.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7917 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-14 07:35:21
October 14 2017 07:34 GMT
#179859
On October 14 2017 13:26 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 11:31 zlefin wrote:
sounds like pretty typical standards already in use; I'm not seeing much of a difference from standard operating procedures everywhere already.

Pretty funny, zlefin. But we’ll see if they’ll change from this. Trump obsession and paranoia is very much in vogue.

https://twitter.com/jpodhoretz/status/918800458013138946

No it doesn't. It means they don't want the private opinions of their journalists all over. A good journalist may have a very strong opinion in private, he has to be neutral when he comes to facts at work.

Which NYT personnel does actually remarkably well. I completely agree that having their staff personally and privately tweeting political stuff is pretty stupid and undermined the otherwise fantastic job they do.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43201 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-14 07:38:56
October 14 2017 07:38 GMT
#179860
I think it's absurd that the rational response to the lunatic in the Oval Office is being treated as journalistic bias. This is the fallacy of the middle ground. If one person says the earth is 6000 years old and the other says 4 billion then the neutral position is not that it is 2 billion.

There is simply no way to report on Trump without reporting negatively. The man is irredeemable. The fault is with the subject matter.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
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