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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
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On October 14 2017 08:11 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote: the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still. but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president. edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified." I'm not surprised you need to dissemble to cover for the misconduct of the republicans, and are unable to own up to their gross failure to do their job. It coudln't get 67 votes because, exactly as I had already stated, the rpeublicans chose ot play cheap politics at the expense of america's national security. so it remains entirely the fault of the republicans. If they weren't damaging the country for petty partisanship, then it would've been submitted as a treaty, and approved as one. so do try to keep up, instead of pretending with nonsense points like you just did wherein you falsely try to put the onus on obama rather than the actual guilty party.
Trump's actions are enabled because this deal is a "executive agreement" and thus subject to the will of the executive. It's an executive agreement because that was the logic Obama used because he wanted it hell or high water.He also then signed the Corker-Cardin bill.
On October 14 2017 08:15 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote: the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still. but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president. edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified." Yeah, you can never have the full win with Trump. And that would be " Congress Corker did some gymnastics, came up with the Corker bill that ceded Senatorial treaty power, and convinced enough pussyfooting senators to wuss out with him. Naturally, they all can come together with tough words condemning the deal later!
Don't forget Ben Sasse. Someone I want to like but it seems like twitter is his primary mode of activism, while not really doing a whole lot and of course passing off on this deal.
On October 14 2017 08:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 07:34 Introvert wrote: Good thing we have a constitution so that Trump can't violate treaties. Unfortunately for Obama and those in favor of the deal, this was an "executive agreement" not a treaty. The legislation passed by Congress with the intent of doing an end run around the treaty clause enables Trump' s actions today. That is because congressional republicans didn't want to approve Obamas deal, but also didn't want to be the ones to kill it. They don't have a problem with the deal except that Obama made it. A few have objections, but not strong enough to be the ones who kill the deal with Iran. So they punted and put the burden on the executive branch. So now they have to deal with it now because Trump is a child.
You are free to continue looking at this entirely through the lens of Obama hatred, it works for me because if one doesn't know the problems he/she has they make wrong diagnoses and let the other side in the door.
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intro, you did not counter the arguments and points I posted, so way to prove you're a partisan hack engaging in disingenuous posting and gymnastics to pretend it's not the republicans fault. reposting your point, while ignoring that your point was already countered, sad. whatever it takes to let you sleep at night.
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On October 14 2017 08:45 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 08:11 zlefin wrote:On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote: the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still. but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president. edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified." I'm not surprised you need to dissemble to cover for the misconduct of the republicans, and are unable to own up to their gross failure to do their job. It coudln't get 67 votes because, exactly as I had already stated, the rpeublicans chose ot play cheap politics at the expense of america's national security. so it remains entirely the fault of the republicans. If they weren't damaging the country for petty partisanship, then it would've been submitted as a treaty, and approved as one. so do try to keep up, instead of pretending with nonsense points like you just did wherein you falsely try to put the onus on obama rather than the actual guilty party. Trump's actions are enabled because this deal is a "executive agreement" and thus subject to the will of the executive. It's an executive agreement because that was the logic Obama used because he wanted it hell or high water.He also then signed the Corker-Cardin bill. Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 08:15 Danglars wrote:On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote: the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still. but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president. edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified." Yeah, you can never have the full win with Trump. And that would be " Congress Corker did some gymnastics, came up with the Corker bill that ceded Senatorial treaty power, and convinced enough pussyfooting senators to wuss out with him. Naturally, they all can come together with tough words condemning the deal later! Don't forget Ben Sasse. Someone I want to like but it seems like twitter is his primary mode of activism, while not really doing a whole lot and of course passing off on this deal. Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 08:22 Plansix wrote:On October 14 2017 07:34 Introvert wrote: Good thing we have a constitution so that Trump can't violate treaties. Unfortunately for Obama and those in favor of the deal, this was an "executive agreement" not a treaty. The legislation passed by Congress with the intent of doing an end run around the treaty clause enables Trump' s actions today. That is because congressional republicans didn't want to approve Obamas deal, but also didn't want to be the ones to kill it. They don't have a problem with the deal except that Obama made it. A few have objections, but not strong enough to be the ones who kill the deal with Iran. So they punted and put the burden on the executive branch. So now they have to deal with it now because Trump is a child. You are free to continue looking at this entirely through the lens of Obama hatred, it works for me because if one doesn't know the problems he/she has they make wrong diagnoses and let the other side in the door. That is the same congress that denied Obama a Supreme Court appointment, so my assessment is on point.
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On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 08:15 Danglars wrote:On October 14 2017 07:57 Introvert wrote:On October 14 2017 07:45 zlefin wrote: the unwilingness of congressal republicans to do the right thing and approve it as a treaty enabled trump's actions today (wherein they instead score political points by lying about the deal at the expense of america's national security). So pretty clear which side is to blame still. but you gotta blame obama rather than put the blame where it belongs If memory serves it was never even submitted as a treaty (if Obama did that and it failed then that would have A) been the end of the deal, and B) recognized Congress's authority on the matter). But for your constant talk of logic this post doesn't contain any. Obama knew it couldn't get 67 votes, so he didn't bother. Congress did some gymnastics and came up with a plan where it would take 67 Senators to disapprove, a deal Obama happily took. That cockamamie bill (or more than one bill, I don't remember) contains the language Trump used today. Only one person is at fault for being so devoted to this deal that he ignored the treaty clause: the president. edit: btw, Trump didn't even throw the deal out. in typical Trump fashion, he only went part of the way. he only "Decertified." Yeah, you can never have the full win with Trump. And that would be " Congress Corker did some gymnastics, came up with the Corker bill that ceded Senatorial treaty power, and convinced enough pussyfooting senators to wuss out with him. Naturally, they all can come together with tough words condemning the deal later! Don't forget Ben Sasse. Someone I want to like but it seems like twitter is his primary mode of activism, while not really doing a whole lot and of course passing off on this deal. Yeah, Sasse has been a dissapointment. He could have a lot of credibility right now if he acted consistently in the past years.
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Stuff like this is just a standard gaffe for pretty much any politician. It's no more important than "57 states" or any of the various Bushisms ("fool me twice... don't get fooled again")
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Interesting that the NYT is the first to do this publically.
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sounds like pretty typical standards already in use; I'm not seeing much of a difference from standard operating procedures everywhere already.
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I expect to see more of these.
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I want to see a first amendment case if they try it at a public college. It could get interesting.
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On October 14 2017 11:31 zlefin wrote: sounds like pretty typical standards already in use; I'm not seeing much of a difference from standard operating procedures everywhere already. Pretty funny, zlefin. But we’ll see if they’ll change from this. Trump obsession and paranoia is very much in vogue.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
NYT is nowhere near as absurdly grudge-loving as Washington Post or CNN. They have their bias but they still do have journalistic standards. The latter just spend every waking moment spreading piss fires because they find yellow press journalism and grandstanding to be profitable, or something.
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On October 14 2017 13:24 Danglars wrote:I want to see a first amendment case if they try it at a public college. It could get interesting.
Why and why?
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I'm pretty sure the court has ruled in the past that high schoolers don't have constitutional rights so it would be a very boring case.
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On October 14 2017 13:24 Danglars wrote:I want to see a first amendment case if they try it at a public college. It could get interesting. That depends largely on whether there is any distinction between public schools and post-secondary institutions. I wouldn't see a logical basis for it.
The Court held, in a 6-to-3 decision delivered by Justice Jackson, that it was unconstitutional for public schools to compel students to salute the flag. It thus overruled its decision in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, finding that the flag salute was "a form of utterance" and "a primitive but effective means of communicating ideas." "Compulsory unification of opinion," the Court wrote, was doomed to failure and was antithetical to the values set forth in the First Amendment. The Court eloquently stated: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette
Moreover, this underscores the sheer audacity Trump displays by trying to do the same to NFL players.
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On October 14 2017 13:47 Nevuk wrote: I'm pretty sure the court has ruled in the past that high schoolers don't have constitutional rights so it would be a very boring case.
They have some and not others and the legal grounds are basically "yeah shut the kids up". Essentially the schools responsibility for safety trumps kids constitutional rights because some old assholes said so.
Though Sunshine points out that they aren't (supposed) to be able to compel you.
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On October 14 2017 13:26 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2017 11:31 zlefin wrote: sounds like pretty typical standards already in use; I'm not seeing much of a difference from standard operating procedures everywhere already. Pretty funny, zlefin. But we’ll see if they’ll change from this. Trump obsession and paranoia is very much in vogue. https://twitter.com/jpodhoretz/status/918800458013138946 No it doesn't. It means they don't want the private opinions of their journalists all over. A good journalist may have a very strong opinion in private, he has to be neutral when he comes to facts at work.
Which NYT personnel does actually remarkably well. I completely agree that having their staff personally and privately tweeting political stuff is pretty stupid and undermined the otherwise fantastic job they do.
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United States42803 Posts
I think it's absurd that the rational response to the lunatic in the Oval Office is being treated as journalistic bias. This is the fallacy of the middle ground. If one person says the earth is 6000 years old and the other says 4 billion then the neutral position is not that it is 2 billion.
There is simply no way to report on Trump without reporting negatively. The man is irredeemable. The fault is with the subject matter.
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