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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8981

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Post a Reply
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-12 18:32:50
October 12 2017 18:30 GMT
#179601
On October 13 2017 03:24 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:11 ShoCkeyy wrote:
So I had a friend tell me this, and while I don't care enough to disprove him since I'm a centrist and see both sides are total shit. Would any of you have something?

+ Show Spoiler +

"All the liberal media outlets practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any conservative outlet out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."

what sites/sources would he accep tas truth?
with someone spouting such utter garbage as that, I'd expect they both have no concept of what fake news is, and would dismiss any evidence as having come from a fake site.


Definitely InfoWars. And this is his take on "fake news".

+ Show Spoiler +
"Fake News does t necessarily mean fake facts, it's referring to the bias exhibited by anchors and networks that should be more neutral."


On October 13 2017 03:29 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:11 ShoCkeyy wrote:
So I had a friend tell me this, and while I don't care enough to disprove him since I'm a centrist and see both sides are total shit. Would any of you have something?

+ Show Spoiler +

"All the liberal media outlets practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any conservative outlet out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."

Folks are right, it’s a trap. There is no way to quantify the amount of fake news, or establish what is a liberal outlet. Also it comes dangerously close to proving a negative, since you need to prove an excessive amount of false stories does not exist.

But the real response to him is: Please show your work.

He is making the claim, not you.



He's going to end up posting a Youtube video like this one:

+ Show Spoiler +
Life?
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
October 12 2017 18:33 GMT
#179602
On October 13 2017 03:30 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:24 zlefin wrote:
On October 13 2017 03:11 ShoCkeyy wrote:
So I had a friend tell me this, and while I don't care enough to disprove him since I'm a centrist and see both sides are total shit. Would any of you have something?

+ Show Spoiler +

"All the liberal media outlets practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any conservative outlet out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."

what sites/sources would he accep tas truth?
with someone spouting such utter garbage as that, I'd expect they both have no concept of what fake news is, and would dismiss any evidence as having come from a fake site.


Definitely InfoWars. And this is his take on "fake news".

+ Show Spoiler +
"Fake News does t necessarily mean fake facts, it's referring to the bias exhibited by anchors and networks that should be more neutral."


then you can never win because he will always say something is biased. Trap
Something witty
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
October 12 2017 18:35 GMT
#179603
On October 13 2017 03:30 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:24 zlefin wrote:
On October 13 2017 03:11 ShoCkeyy wrote:
So I had a friend tell me this, and while I don't care enough to disprove him since I'm a centrist and see both sides are total shit. Would any of you have something?

+ Show Spoiler +

"All the liberal media outlets practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any conservative outlet out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."

what sites/sources would he accep tas truth?
with someone spouting such utter garbage as that, I'd expect they both have no concept of what fake news is, and would dismiss any evidence as having come from a fake site.


Definitely InfoWars. And this is his take on "fake news".

+ Show Spoiler +
"Fake News does t necessarily mean fake facts, it's referring to the bias exhibited by anchors and networks that should be more neutral."


Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:29 Plansix wrote:
On October 13 2017 03:11 ShoCkeyy wrote:
So I had a friend tell me this, and while I don't care enough to disprove him since I'm a centrist and see both sides are total shit. Would any of you have something?

+ Show Spoiler +

"All the liberal media outlets practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any conservative outlet out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."

Folks are right, it’s a trap. There is no way to quantify the amount of fake news, or establish what is a liberal outlet. Also it comes dangerously close to proving a negative, since you need to prove an excessive amount of false stories does not exist.

But the real response to him is: Please show your work.

He is making the claim, not you.



He's going to end up posting a Youtube video like this one:

+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=CMMJlXZFn84

Fake news is not biased news.
Biased news is biased news

Fake news is fake news.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 12 2017 18:45 GMT
#179604
The response is he doesn’t understand journalism and needs to take some classes. Biased news is still just news with bias. Bias isn’t bad. Reporters report on what they feel is important. News anchors are not reporters and are not journalist. If he thinks that news anchors are journalists, he is wrong.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32761 Posts
October 12 2017 18:46 GMT
#179605
On October 13 2017 03:30 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:24 zlefin wrote:
On October 13 2017 03:11 ShoCkeyy wrote:
So I had a friend tell me this, and while I don't care enough to disprove him since I'm a centrist and see both sides are total shit. Would any of you have something?

+ Show Spoiler +

"All the liberal media outlets practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any conservative outlet out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."

what sites/sources would he accep tas truth?
with someone spouting such utter garbage as that, I'd expect they both have no concept of what fake news is, and would dismiss any evidence as having come from a fake site.


Definitely InfoWars. And this is his take on "fake news".

+ Show Spoiler +
"Fake News does t necessarily mean fake facts, it's referring to the bias exhibited by anchors and networks that should be more neutral."


Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:29 Plansix wrote:
On October 13 2017 03:11 ShoCkeyy wrote:
So I had a friend tell me this, and while I don't care enough to disprove him since I'm a centrist and see both sides are total shit. Would any of you have something?

+ Show Spoiler +

"All the liberal media outlets practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any conservative outlet out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."

Folks are right, it’s a trap. There is no way to quantify the amount of fake news, or establish what is a liberal outlet. Also it comes dangerously close to proving a negative, since you need to prove an excessive amount of false stories does not exist.

But the real response to him is: Please show your work.

He is making the claim, not you.



He's going to end up posting a Youtube video like this one:

+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=CMMJlXZFn84

If his definition of fake news is news with an angle he doesn't understand the concept. News has been always biased, but no one called it fake news until Trump co-oped the term to refer to outlets that gave him unfavourable coverage. Frankly I believe it's a pointless game and trap you would be walking into, because the burden of proof on you is immense, but the likely result will be him waving off your sources as untruthful and biased.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-12 18:50:54
October 12 2017 18:50 GMT
#179606
On October 13 2017 03:11 ShoCkeyy wrote:
So I had a friend tell me this, and while I don't care enough to disprove him since I'm a centrist and see both sides are total shit. Would any of you have something?

+ Show Spoiler +

"All the liberal media outlets practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any conservative outlet out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."



"All the conservative media outlets practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any other liberal out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."

In this case reverse the media outlets and if he doesn't recognise the hypocrisy, then he really isn't worth talking to.

"Trump twitter practice a way more excessive amount of fake news than any outlet out there, if you have proof that says otherwise, please show me."

Though in the Trump case it should be somewhat easy to prove/disprove unless your friend is basically xdaunt.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 12 2017 18:51 GMT
#179607
Or just have him read up on the use of newspapers in the Jefferson vs Adam election. You want to see some amazing fake news, dig into that.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 12 2017 19:23 GMT
#179608
Death tolls are the primary way we understand the impact of a disaster. And for nearly two weeks after Hurricane Maria hit Puerto Rico, as a humanitarian crisis was intensifying, the death toll was frozen at 16.

“Sixteen people certified,” Trump said on October 3 during his visit to the island, repeating a figure confirmed by the territory’s governor. "Everybody watching can really be very proud of what's taken place in Puerto Rico."

It was a moment that crystallized two conflicting narratives about the Puerto Rico disaster. The first one, from the federal government and Puerto Rico’s governor, is of a disaster that’s been managed well, with lives being saved and hospitals getting back up and running.

Lives surely have been saved in the response. But images and reports from the ground tell a story of people, cut off from basic supplies and health care, dying. They tell of hospitals running out of medication and fuel for their generators and struggling to keep up with the “avalanche of patients that came after the hurricane,” as one journalist put it.

The death toll from the hurricane is now up to 45, according to Gov. Ricardo Rosselló. But 90 percent of the 3.4 million American citizens on the island still don’t have power, and 35 percent still don’t have water to drink or bathe in. And given how deadly power outages can be, 45 deaths seems low, according to disaster experts.

At Vox, we decided to compare what the government has been saying with other reports of deaths from the ground. We searched Google News for reports of deaths in English and Spanish media from Puerto Rico since Hurricane Maria. We found reports of a total of 81 deaths linked directly or indirectly to the hurricane. Of those, 45 were the deaths certified by the government. The remaining 36 deaths were confirmed by local public officials or funeral directors, according to the reports. We also found another 450 reported deaths, most of causes still unknown, and reports of at least 69 people still missing.

The broader issue here relates to how storm deaths are counted. There are clear deaths from the storm, clear deaths indirectly from the storm, and then deaths that are harder to determine — for instance, a sick patient who died in a hospital experiencing frequent power outages. And then there’s the issue of how effective authorities are at finding and investigating the deaths to make sure they’re included in the count. The breakdown of these categories suggests that the government is being much more cautious in designating deaths as directly or indirectly hurricane-related, given the public information available.

At a Sunday news conference, Karixia Ortiz, press officer for the Department of Public Safety, said that “every death must be confirmed by the Institute of Forensic Science, which means either the bodies have to be brought to San Juan to do an autopsy or a medical examiner must be dispatched to the local municipality to verify the death,” according to an audio recording obtained by Huffington Post.

John Mutter, a disaster researcher at Columbia University who studied the death toll in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, says he’s skeptical of this methodology. “This is the way to go about it if you want to come up with smallest number possible,” he said, adding he suspects the death toll in Puerto Rico from Maria should already be in the hundreds based on what’s known about the conditions on the ground.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8223 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-12 19:25:22
October 12 2017 19:23 GMT
#179609
On October 13 2017 03:05 LegalLord wrote:
It's unfortunate that Israel was founded where it was, though I don't know if there was any other place it could have been formed. But it is where it is, and there's certainly no changing that now. And if you want to ignore an officially-not-nuclear power, then that's your choice.

Herzl considered Argentina, but decided the symbolic appeal if Israel was too much of an asset. Oh and they all considered Palestine to be "empty". Talk of fuck ups...
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
October 12 2017 19:28 GMT
#179610
On October 13 2017 04:23 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:05 LegalLord wrote:
It's unfortunate that Israel was founded where it was, though I don't know if there was any other place it could have been formed. But it is where it is, and there's certainly no changing that now. And if you want to ignore an officially-not-nuclear power, then that's your choice.

Herzl considered Argentina, but decided the symbolic appeal if Israel was too much of an asset. Oh and they all considered Palestine to be "empty". Talk of fuck ups...

What was going on in Argentina at the time that made it a good option?
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-12 19:31:57
October 12 2017 19:30 GMT
#179611
On October 13 2017 04:28 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 04:23 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 13 2017 03:05 LegalLord wrote:
It's unfortunate that Israel was founded where it was, though I don't know if there was any other place it could have been formed. But it is where it is, and there's certainly no changing that now. And if you want to ignore an officially-not-nuclear power, then that's your choice.

Herzl considered Argentina, but decided the symbolic appeal if Israel was too much of an asset. Oh and they all considered Palestine to be "empty". Talk of fuck ups...

What was going on in Argentina at the time that made it a good option?

A military coup had taken place in 1943 and the country was a mess, a state of affairs that would end up capitalized on by Juan Peron.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12080 Posts
October 12 2017 19:32 GMT
#179612
On October 13 2017 04:23 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:05 LegalLord wrote:
It's unfortunate that Israel was founded where it was, though I don't know if there was any other place it could have been formed. But it is where it is, and there's certainly no changing that now. And if you want to ignore an officially-not-nuclear power, then that's your choice.

Herzl considered Argentina, but decided the symbolic appeal if Israel was too much of an asset. Oh and they all considered Palestine to be "empty". Talk of fuck ups...


Well there are only brown people there, and everyone knows that they don't count. The same way america was empty land when the europeans arrived, australia was empty, ...


Regarding the fake news friend topic, there is no way that that debate is going to work out (If what was given as quotes are actual quotes and not just your take on it)

The definition given amounts to the Trump definition: "fake news is any news that i dislike", and he wants you to prove a negative with that shitty definition. You are not going to be able to prove that on undefined liberal news outlets there is less news that he dislikes than on undefined conservative news outlets.

Whenever you find something he simply can not disregard on a conservative outlet, he will just say that that outlet does not count. And then produce some utter crackpot bullshit and claim it is a "liberal news outlet".

The only thing to do is tell him that he needs to learn both how journalism works and how discussions work. He is going to ignore that and think that he won the discussion, of course, but the discussion he wants to have is not an actual discussion anyways.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 12 2017 19:39 GMT
#179613
On October 13 2017 04:23 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 03:05 LegalLord wrote:
It's unfortunate that Israel was founded where it was, though I don't know if there was any other place it could have been formed. But it is where it is, and there's certainly no changing that now. And if you want to ignore an officially-not-nuclear power, then that's your choice.

Herzl considered Argentina, but decided the symbolic appeal if Israel was too much of an asset. Oh and they all considered Palestine to be "empty". Talk of fuck ups...

He probably made the right choice. Israel may be a pariah but Argentina probably simply would not have been a genuine nation of Israel. And significantly fewer people would have tagged along, that's another issue.

It was essentially the place all of them could agree on. Sure the locale is unfortunate but that was what worked. And even if it was a mistake back then it's a reality now.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 12 2017 19:44 GMT
#179614
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 12 2017 19:49 GMT
#179615
No one told Trump that being president meant he was going to be criticized endlessly for 4 years and beyond. Not a job for the thin skinned.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
October 12 2017 19:50 GMT
#179616
Or the thick headed...
passive quaranstream fan
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3890 Posts
October 12 2017 19:55 GMT
#179617
Honestly could have given Israel a decent chunk of western United States but I doubt anyone wanted that.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
October 12 2017 19:57 GMT
#179618
On October 13 2017 04:32 Simberto wrote:
Regarding the fake news friend topic, there is no way that that debate is going to work out (If what was given as quotes are actual quotes and not just your take on it)

The definition given amounts to the Trump definition: "fake news is any news that i dislike", and he wants you to prove a negative with that shitty definition. You are not going to be able to prove that on undefined liberal news outlets there is less news that he dislikes than on undefined conservative news outlets.


If the 'fake news' discussion is left to Trump this will probably be the biggest and most consequential thing of his presidency. Fact and fiction are two distinct thing, the former doesn't go away even if you don't believe in it. To say that any definition of fake news amounts to Trump's definition is to say that reality has left the realm of politics. That would be a really big mistake.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
October 12 2017 20:11 GMT
#179619
On October 13 2017 04:49 Plansix wrote:
No one told Trump that being president meant he was going to be criticized endlessly for 4 years and beyond. Not a job for the thin skinned.

Howard Stern (who is a friend of him apparently) warned him. I'm sure others did aswell.

He simply didn't listen to them.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
October 12 2017 20:15 GMT
#179620
On October 13 2017 05:11 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2017 04:49 Plansix wrote:
No one told Trump that being president meant he was going to be criticized endlessly for 4 years and beyond. Not a job for the thin skinned.

Howard Stern (who is a friend of him apparently) warned him. I'm sure others did aswell.

He simply didn't listen to them.

I have thickest of skin and thinnest of skull. Everybody knows that! You ask somebody and they'll agree.
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