|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On October 12 2017 05:54 sertas wrote:
as a non american i dont get it. Isnt america supposed to be super patriotic? Why kneel during ur anthem? Thats like saying fu america, at least thats how i would see it.
People protesting consider protest one of the highest forms of patriotism. Pushing for difficult improvements is a lot harder than accepting a sub-optimal situation. It is the reason we fought for independence.
|
I would argue that these athletes, who are some of the most privileged people in the world, don't have a right but a responsibility to protest what they consider injustices, real or imagined ones.
|
On October 12 2017 05:55 Plansix wrote:I don’t think it is a sympathy play. The NFL commission and team owners know they can’t make all players stand and any effort will fail. The discussion shifted from protest to obeying Trump when Trump weighed in. Some of our conservative posters have failed to grasp that the discussion changes when leader of the country demands citizens stand. Show nested quote +On October 12 2017 05:54 sertas wrote:
as a non american i dont get it. Isnt america supposed to be super patriotic? Why kneel during ur anthem? Thats like saying fu america, at least thats how i would see it. Its protesting police violence against minorities, which is a big issue in the country. Kneeling is a sign of respect. Players how kneel want to protest respectfully, in silence.
But i thought statistically it adds up this so called unfair treatment? At least Ben shapiro said this on some youtube video.
|
I'm not American, but I agree with Eminem about Trump and that Trump is trying to change the topic. NFL is not important. What's actually more important is to discuss healthcare, Puerto Rico, global warming, etc. So many more important topics.
|
United States43232 Posts
On October 12 2017 06:00 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:
I would argue that these athletes, who are some of the most privileged people in the world, don't have a right but a responsibility to protest what they consider injustices, real or imagined ones.
My bad, misread "but a" as "or".
|
On October 12 2017 06:00 sertas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2017 05:55 Plansix wrote:I don’t think it is a sympathy play. The NFL commission and team owners know they can’t make all players stand and any effort will fail. The discussion shifted from protest to obeying Trump when Trump weighed in. Some of our conservative posters have failed to grasp that the discussion changes when leader of the country demands citizens stand. On October 12 2017 05:54 sertas wrote:
as a non american i dont get it. Isnt america supposed to be super patriotic? Why kneel during ur anthem? Thats like saying fu america, at least thats how i would see it. Its protesting police violence against minorities, which is a big issue in the country. Kneeling is a sign of respect. Players how kneel want to protest respectfully, in silence. But i thought statistically it adds up this so called unfair treatment? At least Ben shapiro said this on some youtube video.
That isn’t how justice works. If I get shot by a cop here in my state and can’t get him convicted of a crime, I don’t really care if cops are on average totally fine and don’t unarmed shoot people. And I’m white.
And the argument that it is statistically equally sort of leaves out the fact that police departments do not report the use of lethal force to any national data base. Many departments don’t track it at all. So the data is bad.
Edit: I would also be pretty skeptical of Ben Shapiro when he says something isn’t a problem. He is pretty quick to toss out some numbers and dismiss something as a non-issue if he doesn’t feel like it should be a problem. Like in this case where he cited bad data that he should know is bad.
|
On October 12 2017 06:08 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2017 06:00 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:
I would argue that these athletes, who are some of the most privileged people in the world, don't have a right but a responsibility to protest what they consider injustices, real or imagined ones. So your system is to wait for those whose voices have been stripped away to speak up for themselves?
I think you miss read him?
He is saying that the athletes should protest for those who cannot do so themselves.
|
United States43232 Posts
On October 12 2017 06:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2017 06:08 KwarK wrote:On October 12 2017 06:00 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:
I would argue that these athletes, who are some of the most privileged people in the world, don't have a right but a responsibility to protest what they consider injustices, real or imagined ones. So your system is to wait for those whose voices have been stripped away to speak up for themselves? I think you miss read him? He is saying that the athletes should protest for those who cannot do so themselves.
Thanks, fixed.
|
No worries, I'm just going by the idea that those who are most privileged in a society are those who have most responsibility to speak up.
Of course the reason they're protesting is almost entirely imagined, but that's a whole different story than their right to use their considerable platform to protest. I remember Sam Harris citing a study that said black people are no more likely to get mistreated by the police once you control for all the relevant factors, like resisting arrest and being aggressive towards police.
They should be getting on their knees thanking the police personnel who are the risking their lives every day to actually prevent the murder of blacks by other blacks.
|
On October 12 2017 06:00 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:
I would argue that these athletes, who are some of the most privileged people in the world, don't have a right but a responsibility to protest what they consider injustices, real or imagined ones.
I too am a bit of a fan of noblesse oblige.
|
Of course the reason they're protesting is almost entirely imagined, but that's a whole different story than their right to use their considerable platform to protest. I remember Sam Harris citing a study that said black people are no more likely to get mistreated by the police once you control for all the relevant factors, like resisting arrest and being aggressive towards police.
Not to rehash old stuff, but even if this was true it's basically an absurd argument in the sense that it's effectively saying, "it's not a big deal that police kill so many people because they do it indiscriminately." But that's even before you get into how bad the data around this stuff seems to be.
|
On October 12 2017 05:54 sertas wrote:
as a non american i dont get it. Isnt america supposed to be super patriotic? Why kneel during ur anthem? Thats like saying fu america, at least thats how i would see it.
as a non american i don't get it. Isn't all this worshipping of the flag just super remniscient of fascism? Why force people to stand during the anthem? Thats like saying the military is america, at least thats how i would see it.
|
On October 12 2017 06:32 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +
Of course the reason they're protesting is almost entirely imagined, but that's a whole different story than their right to use their considerable platform to protest. I remember Sam Harris citing a study that said black people are no more likely to get mistreated by the police once you control for all the relevant factors, like resisting arrest and being aggressive towards police.
Not to rehash old stuff, but even if this was true it's basically an absurd argument in the sense that it's effectively saying, "it's not a big deal that police kill so many people because they do it indiscriminately." But that's even before you get into how bad the data around this stuff seems to be.
I mean, I agree that police brutality is an issue, but groups like BLM are turning it into a race issue. They spin it as the white guy keeping down the negro, which is missing the point by a country mile.
|
On October 12 2017 06:35 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2017 06:32 Logo wrote:
Of course the reason they're protesting is almost entirely imagined, but that's a whole different story than their right to use their considerable platform to protest. I remember Sam Harris citing a study that said black people are no more likely to get mistreated by the police once you control for all the relevant factors, like resisting arrest and being aggressive towards police.
Not to rehash old stuff, but even if this was true it's basically an absurd argument in the sense that it's effectively saying, "it's not a big deal that police kill so many people because they do it indiscriminately." But that's even before you get into how bad the data around this stuff seems to be. I mean, I agree that police brutality is an issue, but groups like BLM are turning it into a race issue. They spin it as the white guy keeping down the negro, which is missing the point by a country mile.
it's some of each; some of it is "just" horrible police abuse, some of it is real race issues; it's often hard to tell which is which given the limited information requirements.
|
i’ve been to enough churches and seen enough people kneeling before god to know kneeling isn’t disrespectful.
but hey what do conservatives know about religion anyway.
wait
oh shit i’m a page late. sorry guys.
|
On October 12 2017 06:35 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2017 06:32 Logo wrote:
Of course the reason they're protesting is almost entirely imagined, but that's a whole different story than their right to use their considerable platform to protest. I remember Sam Harris citing a study that said black people are no more likely to get mistreated by the police once you control for all the relevant factors, like resisting arrest and being aggressive towards police.
Not to rehash old stuff, but even if this was true it's basically an absurd argument in the sense that it's effectively saying, "it's not a big deal that police kill so many people because they do it indiscriminately." But that's even before you get into how bad the data around this stuff seems to be. I mean, I agree that police brutality is an issue, but groups like BLM are turning it into a race issue. They spin it as the white guy keeping down the negro, which is missing the point by a country mile.
You may even say blacks are uniquely affected, being more likely to live in urban areas with high police activity. Departments get used to being called to crime scenes where shooter (suspects), victim, and most witnesses are all black. You're more often a witness to police brutality as well as arrests, harassment, and stop & frisk. But instead of bringing attention to police brutality, this narrative is concocted that police are nothing but racist pigs shooting unarmed black men for kicks. It calcifies opposition to the movement. It's a really sad tale if you look into it. Racialized and politicized for private benefit where we might've otherwise been examining root causes and passing legislative reform.
|
On October 12 2017 06:57 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2017 06:35 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:On October 12 2017 06:32 Logo wrote:
Of course the reason they're protesting is almost entirely imagined, but that's a whole different story than their right to use their considerable platform to protest. I remember Sam Harris citing a study that said black people are no more likely to get mistreated by the police once you control for all the relevant factors, like resisting arrest and being aggressive towards police.
Not to rehash old stuff, but even if this was true it's basically an absurd argument in the sense that it's effectively saying, "it's not a big deal that police kill so many people because they do it indiscriminately." But that's even before you get into how bad the data around this stuff seems to be. I mean, I agree that police brutality is an issue, but groups like BLM are turning it into a race issue. They spin it as the white guy keeping down the negro, which is missing the point by a country mile. You may even say blacks are uniquely affected, being more likely to live in urban areas with high police activity. Departments get used to being called to crime scenes where shooter (suspects), victim, and most witnesses are all black. You're more often a witness to police brutality as well as arrests, harassment, and stop & frisk. But instead of bringing attention to police brutality, this narrative is concocted that police are nothing but racist pigs shooting unarmed black men for kicks. It calcifies opposition to the movement. It's a really sad tale if you look into it. Racialized and politicized for private benefit where we might've otherwise been examining root causes and passing legislative reform.
Why is it that you admit people know the root cause, and that it is wrong... but instead of fixing it they are angry that some people on the fringe called them names? So they whine about the name calling and just let slide the injustice they know is there because holy crap I got called a name?
It just seems so frustrating
|
On October 12 2017 07:03 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2017 06:57 Danglars wrote:On October 12 2017 06:35 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:On October 12 2017 06:32 Logo wrote:
Of course the reason they're protesting is almost entirely imagined, but that's a whole different story than their right to use their considerable platform to protest. I remember Sam Harris citing a study that said black people are no more likely to get mistreated by the police once you control for all the relevant factors, like resisting arrest and being aggressive towards police.
Not to rehash old stuff, but even if this was true it's basically an absurd argument in the sense that it's effectively saying, "it's not a big deal that police kill so many people because they do it indiscriminately." But that's even before you get into how bad the data around this stuff seems to be. I mean, I agree that police brutality is an issue, but groups like BLM are turning it into a race issue. They spin it as the white guy keeping down the negro, which is missing the point by a country mile. You may even say blacks are uniquely affected, being more likely to live in urban areas with high police activity. Departments get used to being called to crime scenes where shooter (suspects), victim, and most witnesses are all black. You're more often a witness to police brutality as well as arrests, harassment, and stop & frisk. But instead of bringing attention to police brutality, this narrative is concocted that police are nothing but racist pigs shooting unarmed black men for kicks. It calcifies opposition to the movement. It's a really sad tale if you look into it. Racialized and politicized for private benefit where we might've otherwise been examining root causes and passing legislative reform. Why is it that you admit people know the root cause, and that it is wrong... but instead of fixing it they are angry that some people on the fringe called them names? So they whine about the name calling and just let slide the injustice they know is there because holy crap I got called a name? It just seems so frustrating
Color blind politics at its finest. The police are bad and the cause of brutality. And the brutality is against blacks, but we can't talk about race or that they are black. The black people don't get to stop being black ever, but they can't talk about being black because that would be bringing up race.
|
|
|
On October 12 2017 07:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2017 07:03 IyMoon wrote:On October 12 2017 06:57 Danglars wrote:On October 12 2017 06:35 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:On October 12 2017 06:32 Logo wrote:
Of course the reason they're protesting is almost entirely imagined, but that's a whole different story than their right to use their considerable platform to protest. I remember Sam Harris citing a study that said black people are no more likely to get mistreated by the police once you control for all the relevant factors, like resisting arrest and being aggressive towards police.
Not to rehash old stuff, but even if this was true it's basically an absurd argument in the sense that it's effectively saying, "it's not a big deal that police kill so many people because they do it indiscriminately." But that's even before you get into how bad the data around this stuff seems to be. I mean, I agree that police brutality is an issue, but groups like BLM are turning it into a race issue. They spin it as the white guy keeping down the negro, which is missing the point by a country mile. You may even say blacks are uniquely affected, being more likely to live in urban areas with high police activity. Departments get used to being called to crime scenes where shooter (suspects), victim, and most witnesses are all black. You're more often a witness to police brutality as well as arrests, harassment, and stop & frisk. But instead of bringing attention to police brutality, this narrative is concocted that police are nothing but racist pigs shooting unarmed black men for kicks. It calcifies opposition to the movement. It's a really sad tale if you look into it. Racialized and politicized for private benefit where we might've otherwise been examining root causes and passing legislative reform. Why is it that you admit people know the root cause, and that it is wrong... but instead of fixing it they are angry that some people on the fringe called them names? So they whine about the name calling and just let slide the injustice they know is there because holy crap I got called a name? It just seems so frustrating Color blind politics at its finest. The police are bad and the cause of brutality. And teh brutality is against blacks, but we can't talk about race. The black people don't get to stop being black ever, but they can't talk about being black because that would be bringing up race.
The problem i see here is that the argument doesn't even make sense even if you think that color does not factor in it. Even if the police is completely colorblind and just as brutal against white people as against colored people, the next step in the logic: "Thus we must complain about the people who say that police brutality is about race" just makes no sense. Why is the next step not "Thus we must fix police brutality"? That would make sense. It doesn't matter if you think that the police are killing innocent people in a racist way, or that they are killing innocent people in a non-racist way.
Even if some people complain about racism and you don't think that is the problem, why not meet them in the reasonable middle at "We should do something about police killing innocent people"
I am pretty sure that the black people who complain about police killing innocent black people wouldn't mind if the solution to that problem also leads to the police stopping to kill innocent white people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
