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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-11 19:35:25
October 11 2017 19:29 GMT
#179441
On October 12 2017 03:58 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
In the last week of September, North Korea exploded a nuclear device that was no ordinary atomic bomb. The gadget’s yield indicated that it was, at the very least, a boosted weapon or even a crude hydrogen bomb. In short, it was a city-killer. That same week saw the second of two terrible storms make landfall in Puerto Rico, resulting in what observers knew would be a humanitarian crisis no matter how adept the federal response was. And the federal response was anything but adept.

So how did Donald Trump respond to these crises? He exhumed a dormant controversy from its internment and somehow managed to ride it to victory.

“Wouldn’t you love to see one of the NFL owners when somebody disrespects the flag to say get that sonofabitch off the field?” Trump boomed at an Alabama rally for a candidate he had endorsed who subsequently lost the election (another forgotten embarrassment for the president). This was an extemporaneous riff on the actions of players like former San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick. You see, despite the fact that Kaepernick’s contract expired in March and he hadn’t played in the league for a year, he once took a knee during the playing of the national anthem to protest police violence against African-Americans.

This bloody tunic was designed strictly for the consumption of the crowd into which it was thrown, but Trump’s opponents simply cannot help but be baited into fighting the president on the terrain of his choosing. What followed was a national campaign of kneeling—black players, white players, coaches, owners, and more—all locking arms in solidarity. They insisted they were protesting not just Donald Trump but the callousness of anyone who would deny the legitimacy of protests against police violence.

Trump is a uniquely polarizing figure, and anything he touches becomes polarized. As such, anthem kneeling that had once been wildly unpopular suddenly became only slightly unpopular. One public opinion survey even found the kneeling was seen as an appropriate gesture by a majority of the country. But a majority of the country doesn’t watch major league football. Ultimately, time was on Trump’s side.

The headlines were predictable. “NFL advertisers are ‘nervous’ amid protests, ratings dip.” “Dallas Cowboys TV ratings down in their home market.” “‘Monday Night Football’ Ratings Hits Season Low.” It is unlikely that Trump intentionally picked a fight that he knew he would win, considering the venue in which his comments were made. He might not have known at the time that his improvisatory needling of that particular bear would spark another skirmish in the culture wars. It was, however, obvious that Trump knew what he was doing by this past weekend when Vice President Mike Pence was dispatched to Indianapolis with a plan to walk out on yet another anthem protest. “I asked @VP Pence to leave stadium if any players kneeled, disrespecting our country,” Trump declared on Monday.

The president started this fight, but NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell finished it. In a letter composed on Tuesday and distributed to all 32 teams in the league, the league’s chief said the anthem protests represented a “barrier” to a constructive conversation on “critical social issues.” As such, they were to end immediately.

The letter made it plain that this was no gesture in deference to national comity; it was a business decision. “Like many of our fans, we believe that everyone should stand for the national anthem,” Goodell wrote. “It is an important moment in our game. We want to honor our flag and our country, and our fans expect that of us.”

Just like that, Trump conjured up from thin air another victory in our endless, tiresome culture wars. For his committed fan base, the president’s ability to manufacture these alleged victories represent as the only tangible benefit of the Trump presidency. He could not have done it, though, without the unwitting complicity of his adversaries. Their reliable imprudence assures Trump a steady stream of material to stoke disunion and preserve the cohesion of his coalition. And they never stop sending him material to work with.

Commentary

Nuanced wrap-up.

I don't really understand the point. He talks about the 'unwitting complicity' of his adversaries. But everyone knew exactly how Trump would react to more people kneeling, because he's transparent as fuck in his reactions. They chose to do so because they don't want to be belittled by this man calling them 'sons of bitches' and misusing his power to threaten peoples jobs for trying to raise awareness for a serious societal problem. That some of his base view this flame-crusade of his as a victory is not the problem of the people choosing to protest his actions, it's the problem of the base itself being so blind to reason that they get themselves fooled by his made-up problem of 'disrespecting the anthem' as if it's something important. Most other people just looked at it as another clear token of his awfulness as a person and the moral emptiness of most of his supporters.
Neosteel Enthusiast
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
October 11 2017 19:31 GMT
#179442
On October 12 2017 03:56 Ryzel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2017 00:48 always_winter wrote:
It's nothing short of comical to read keyboard warriors of the same ideological demographic attempt discourse among one other to determine who can more accurately convince the forum his or her own brand of liberalism is unlike the others and morally superior. To assume this outlet you've so nostalgically latched onto carries even an ounce of worth, or that your alleged expertise is influencing anyone or anything inside or out of the incredibly small, remarkably insignificant and ideologically homogeneous world of computer games (or the even more acutely homogeneous demographic of netizens who contribute political discourse to computer game forums), is a pipe dream more poorly conceived than the short-lived successor to the game we all loved as kids. The entertainment spawned from egocentric delusion rivals even that so graciously provided to us by our beloved orange leader.


I'm going to have to agree with Mohdoo that the post is a big swing and a miss. To reach a juicier conclusion, you'll have to take the argument a little further. For example...

Given: Posting on this thread has negligible political impact.

Given: Posting in this thread can help further develop ones' political views.

Given: All citizens have equal inherent political power (e.g. all else being equal, someone voting for Hillary because they agree with her policies has just as much impact as someone voting for Hillary because she's a woman/Democrat).

Therefore: Unless extra effort is spent in one's life to create a greater political impact (joining a campaign party, donating/writing to Congressmen, protesting, etc), a person with weak, uninformed political views is just as politically meaningful as a person with nuanced, developed political views.

Therefore: Unless those posting in this thread are making that extra effort to create greater political impact, participating in this thread is essentially politically meaningless mental masturbation (which, given we're on a computer gaming forum, makes sense).

Of course you'd have no counter argument when everyone else states that your post is even more meaningless than everyone else's, but then you could just point out that you've only wasted maybe 10 minutes on your post while others here have wasted many many hours.

There, I just saved you the trouble. You're welcome.

TLDR: Instead of basing your premise on speculation of subjective motives that you can't prove, focus on more (though not still wholly) objective points.


Yeah I mean what's the point of learning anything if it can't be directly and immediately tied to useful, measurable action, right?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 11 2017 19:48 GMT
#179443
On October 12 2017 04:11 Danglars wrote:

Not a big shocker, but good luck dealing with that problem. This is the problem with having agencies police themselves, which is what our government loves to do.

The more troubling part of that piece is why don’t we have a national data base to track complaints and issues with all doctors. Why is the VA the only group doing this when it would be easier to create a national data base and have all agencies use it?

Oh yeah, federal overreach. I forgot.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
October 11 2017 19:52 GMT
#179444
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 11 2017 19:57 GMT
#179445
Is Trump winning or losing the NFL thing now, since they won’t force them to stand? I am having trouble keeping track.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10809 Posts
October 11 2017 20:04 GMT
#179446
Who cares, you guys focussing on this is proof that it works. For his supporters he is "sticking it to them" and that is all that matters. He doesn't need to win in the long run, its just 4 more years
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-11 20:08:25
October 11 2017 20:07 GMT
#179447


I remember this article. It's still applicable.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 11 2017 20:10 GMT
#179448
On October 12 2017 04:29 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2017 03:58 Danglars wrote:
In the last week of September, North Korea exploded a nuclear device that was no ordinary atomic bomb. The gadget’s yield indicated that it was, at the very least, a boosted weapon or even a crude hydrogen bomb. In short, it was a city-killer. That same week saw the second of two terrible storms make landfall in Puerto Rico, resulting in what observers knew would be a humanitarian crisis no matter how adept the federal response was. And the federal response was anything but adept.

So how did Donald Trump respond to these crises? He exhumed a dormant controversy from its internment and somehow managed to ride it to victory.

“Wouldn’t you love to see one of the NFL owners when somebody disrespects the flag to say get that sonofabitch off the field?” Trump boomed at an Alabama rally for a candidate he had endorsed who subsequently lost the election (another forgotten embarrassment for the president). This was an extemporaneous riff on the actions of players like former San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick. You see, despite the fact that Kaepernick’s contract expired in March and he hadn’t played in the league for a year, he once took a knee during the playing of the national anthem to protest police violence against African-Americans.

This bloody tunic was designed strictly for the consumption of the crowd into which it was thrown, but Trump’s opponents simply cannot help but be baited into fighting the president on the terrain of his choosing. What followed was a national campaign of kneeling—black players, white players, coaches, owners, and more—all locking arms in solidarity. They insisted they were protesting not just Donald Trump but the callousness of anyone who would deny the legitimacy of protests against police violence.

Trump is a uniquely polarizing figure, and anything he touches becomes polarized. As such, anthem kneeling that had once been wildly unpopular suddenly became only slightly unpopular. One public opinion survey even found the kneeling was seen as an appropriate gesture by a majority of the country. But a majority of the country doesn’t watch major league football. Ultimately, time was on Trump’s side.

The headlines were predictable. “NFL advertisers are ‘nervous’ amid protests, ratings dip.” “Dallas Cowboys TV ratings down in their home market.” “‘Monday Night Football’ Ratings Hits Season Low.” It is unlikely that Trump intentionally picked a fight that he knew he would win, considering the venue in which his comments were made. He might not have known at the time that his improvisatory needling of that particular bear would spark another skirmish in the culture wars. It was, however, obvious that Trump knew what he was doing by this past weekend when Vice President Mike Pence was dispatched to Indianapolis with a plan to walk out on yet another anthem protest. “I asked @VP Pence to leave stadium if any players kneeled, disrespecting our country,” Trump declared on Monday.

The president started this fight, but NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell finished it. In a letter composed on Tuesday and distributed to all 32 teams in the league, the league’s chief said the anthem protests represented a “barrier” to a constructive conversation on “critical social issues.” As such, they were to end immediately.

The letter made it plain that this was no gesture in deference to national comity; it was a business decision. “Like many of our fans, we believe that everyone should stand for the national anthem,” Goodell wrote. “It is an important moment in our game. We want to honor our flag and our country, and our fans expect that of us.”

Just like that, Trump conjured up from thin air another victory in our endless, tiresome culture wars. For his committed fan base, the president’s ability to manufacture these alleged victories represent as the only tangible benefit of the Trump presidency. He could not have done it, though, without the unwitting complicity of his adversaries. Their reliable imprudence assures Trump a steady stream of material to stoke disunion and preserve the cohesion of his coalition. And they never stop sending him material to work with.

Commentary

Nuanced wrap-up.

I don't really understand the point. He talks about the 'unwitting complicity' of his adversaries. But everyone knew exactly how Trump would react to more people kneeling, because he's transparent as fuck in his reactions. They chose to do so because they don't want to be belittled by this man calling them 'sons of bitches' and misusing his power to threaten peoples jobs for trying to raise awareness for a serious societal problem. That some of his base view this flame-crusade of his as a victory is not the problem of the people choosing to protest his actions, it's the problem of the base itself being so blind to reason that they get themselves fooled by his made-up problem of 'disrespecting the anthem' as if it's something important. Most other people just looked at it as another clear token of his awfulness as a person and the moral emptiness of most of his supporters.

I thought he illustrated that point well through the fourth, fifth, and sixth paragraphs particularly. What did you think they were about? You also have to think more broadly in the terms of the win because he wasn’t any less polarizing for wading in, nor is this all about the country at large to the negligence of the league-team-fan relationship dynamic.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-11 20:31:29
October 11 2017 20:31 GMT
#179449
What is Trump even "winning" by participating in this? Only 36% of people in this poll approve of Trump's involvement in the NFL protests. 54% disapprove, and 10% unsure. That's pretty damn close to his overall approval rating right now. He's not gaining much ground, if any, through this endeavor. That is the end goal isn't it? A PR stunt to pull in more support from voters?
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 11 2017 20:34 GMT
#179450
On October 12 2017 05:31 Tachion wrote:
What is Trump even "winning" by participating in this? Only 36% of people in this poll approve of Trump's involvement in the NFL protests. 54% disapprove, and 10% unsure. That's pretty damn close to his overall approval rating right now. He's not gaining much ground, if any, through this endeavor. That is the end goal isn't it? A PR stunt to pull in more support from voters?

i'ts not about winning; it's about being perceived as "winning" by a portion of the base, without regard to reality. and increasing polarization so that base will stick with him through whatever happens.
in much politics today it's not about convincing reasonable people of anything or being right, it's about getting the crazy supporters to support more.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
October 11 2017 20:44 GMT
#179451
On October 12 2017 05:31 Tachion wrote:
What is Trump even "winning" by participating in this? Only 36% of people in this poll approve of Trump's involvement in the NFL protests. 54% disapprove, and 10% unsure. That's pretty damn close to his overall approval rating right now. He's not gaining much ground, if any, through this endeavor. That is the end goal isn't it? A PR stunt to pull in more support from voters?

The "win" here is legitimizing the conservative position. Many conservatives complain that modern culture has deemed conservatives wrong until proven right. Issues like gay marriage have really framed conservatism as not a lot more than obstructionism. Trump, through polarizing and energizing certain situations, brings to light a fierce perspective that "NO, these conservative positions DO have legitimacy and SHOULD be talked about as a 2 different sides issue"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 11 2017 20:46 GMT
#179452
On October 12 2017 05:31 Tachion wrote:
What is Trump even "winning" by participating in this? Only 36% of people in this poll approve of Trump's involvement in the NFL protests. 54% disapprove, and 10% unsure. That's pretty damn close to his overall approval rating right now. He's not gaining much ground, if any, through this endeavor. That is the end goal isn't it? A PR stunt to pull in more support from voters?



He turned a good part of the population against the NFL over a dispute that had nothing to do with him.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
October 11 2017 20:47 GMT
#179453
On October 12 2017 05:34 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2017 05:31 Tachion wrote:
What is Trump even "winning" by participating in this? Only 36% of people in this poll approve of Trump's involvement in the NFL protests. 54% disapprove, and 10% unsure. That's pretty damn close to his overall approval rating right now. He's not gaining much ground, if any, through this endeavor. That is the end goal isn't it? A PR stunt to pull in more support from voters?

i'ts not about winning; it's about being perceived as "winning" by a portion of the base, without regard to reality. and increasing polarization so that base will stick with him through whatever happens.
in much politics today it's not about convincing reasonable people of anything or being right, it's about getting the crazy supporters to support more.


He's also accidentally winning (I don't buy Trump as a master distractor type theory) because the death toll of hurricane Maria isn't constant above the fold news even on days such as today when the official numbers have been bumped up to 45.
Logo
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 11 2017 20:49 GMT
#179454
On October 12 2017 05:47 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2017 05:34 zlefin wrote:
On October 12 2017 05:31 Tachion wrote:
What is Trump even "winning" by participating in this? Only 36% of people in this poll approve of Trump's involvement in the NFL protests. 54% disapprove, and 10% unsure. That's pretty damn close to his overall approval rating right now. He's not gaining much ground, if any, through this endeavor. That is the end goal isn't it? A PR stunt to pull in more support from voters?

i'ts not about winning; it's about being perceived as "winning" by a portion of the base, without regard to reality. and increasing polarization so that base will stick with him through whatever happens.
in much politics today it's not about convincing reasonable people of anything or being right, it's about getting the crazy supporters to support more.


He's also accidentally winning (I don't buy Trump as a master distractor type theory) because the death toll of hurricane Maria isn't constant above the fold news even on days such as today when the official numbers have been bumped up to 45.

indeed; and it is that way because that's what people consume for media, rather than focusing on things that really matter. (and of course a lot of people don't know it's part of the US)
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 11 2017 20:49 GMT
#179455
On October 12 2017 05:31 Tachion wrote:
What is Trump even "winning" by participating in this? Only 36% of people in this poll approve of Trump's involvement in the NFL protests. 54% disapprove, and 10% unsure. That's pretty damn close to his overall approval rating right now. He's not gaining much ground, if any, through this endeavor. That is the end goal isn't it? A PR stunt to pull in more support from voters?

He stumbled into the culture war about unpatriotic displays, and made the backlash about him and flag & country. The NFL started with a sympathetic play, then lost viewership numbers, ticket revenue, and threats from sponsors. Then Goodell reversed course, and owners like Jerry Jones fired back at protesting players.

Trump owns the message. The NFL shot itself in the foot making a sympathy play. Goodell, red-faced, explains the protests are a barrier to constructive conversation on critical social issues (no kidding), and very visibly mea culpas to Trump.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
sertas
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden888 Posts
October 11 2017 20:54 GMT
#179456
as a non american i dont get it. Isnt america supposed to be super patriotic? Why kneel during ur anthem? Thats like saying fu america, at least thats how i would see it.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43229 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-11 20:58:35
October 11 2017 20:55 GMT
#179457
On October 12 2017 05:54 sertas wrote:
as a non american i dont get it. Isnt america supposed to be super patriotic? Why kneel during ur anthem? Thats like saying fu america, at least thats how i would see it.

You think kneeling before something is unpatriotic?
How do you feel about people flying the confederate flag?

For a super patriotic country there do seem to be an awful lot of people flying the flags of traitors who fought a war against the country.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-11 20:57:14
October 11 2017 20:55 GMT
#179458
I don’t think it is a sympathy play. The NFL commission and team owners know they can’t make all players stand and any effort will fail. The discussion shifted from protest to obeying Trump when Trump weighed in. Some of our conservative posters have failed to grasp that the discussion changes when leader of the country demands citizens stand.

On October 12 2017 05:54 sertas wrote:
as a non american i dont get it. Isnt america supposed to be super patriotic? Why kneel during ur anthem? Thats like saying fu america, at least thats how i would see it.


Its protesting police violence against minorities, which is a big issue in the country. Kneeling is a sign of respect. Players how kneel want to protest respectfully, in silence.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-11 20:59:06
October 11 2017 20:58 GMT
#179459
On October 12 2017 05:54 sertas wrote:
as a non american i dont get it. Isnt america supposed to be super patriotic? Why kneel during ur anthem? Thats like saying fu america, at least thats how i would see it.

some americans are super patriotic (or more accurately nationalistic), some aren't. the kneeling was about protesting the horrible mistreatment some people suffer, and on which no/insufficient action is taken.

some people chose to read it as you would, some chose to read it otherwise.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
sertas
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden888 Posts
October 11 2017 20:58 GMT
#179460
On October 12 2017 05:55 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2017 05:54 sertas wrote:
as a non american i dont get it. Isnt america supposed to be super patriotic? Why kneel during ur anthem? Thats like saying fu america, at least thats how i would see it.

You think kneeling before something is unpatriotic?
How do you feel about people flying the confederate flag?


Obviously evreone allways stands during the national anthem. If ur in a hall sitting evreone is supposed to stand during the national anthem. Confederate flag is also not patriotic.
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