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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 28 2014 23:48 WhiteDog wrote:
Also the idea that women dominate in teaching is retarded, they dominate for low grades only. In universities most teachers are men.
Well, that is a bit oversimplified. In most countries women are slightly overrepresented compared to the percentage of women that are PhD students, when it comes to the lowest rank of professional academia. But are progressively more underrepresented as you look at higher and higher academic ranks. Female academic professionals also more often say they prefer teaching vs research, and on average spend more time teaching instead of researching when compared to men.
I don't know what this means for the total representation of women as university teachers, since I can't find any data.
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A study i saw recently (can’t find it now) measured incomes of woman and men in jobs with similar qualifications.
Men often earned more. But the reasoning was quite surprising.
To put it plain and simple: the majority of Women didn’t demand as much as the men in their interviews or annual qualification talks.
But it wasn't enough to explain the whole gap.
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If I've been convinced that gender wage-gap exists, what should I do as an employee? At my place of employment there is about 25 male employees and one female(in reception). What policies should a back a as a voter.
If will never be for affirmative action and hiring quotas BTW.
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On January 29 2014 02:41 Wolfstan wrote:
If I've been convinced that gender wage-gap exists, what should I do as an employee? At my place of employment there is about 25 male employees and one female(in reception). What policies should a back a as a voter.
If will never be for affirmative action and hiring quotas BTW.
If you find out that you're paying men more than women for doing the same job, you simply need to pay women the same amount. Why was that so hard to figure out?
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On January 29 2014 02:41 Wolfstan wrote:
If I've been convinced that gender wage-gap exists, what should I do as an employee? At my place of employment there is about 25 male employees and one female(in reception). What policies should a back a as a voter.
If will never be for affirmative action and hiring quotas BTW.
In my opinion forced paid and equal paternity leave, and policies that make daycare more accesable and affordable. More generally I believe that policies that counteract the inequality in real and perceived child care rights and responsibilities, will go a long way towards closing the wage gap.
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On January 29 2014 02:41 Wolfstan wrote:
If I've been convinced that gender wage-gap exists, what should I do as an employee? At my place of employment there is about 25 male employees and one female(in reception). What policies should a back a as a voter.
If will never be for affirmative action and hiring quotas BTW.
If Canadian law is like US law, get data and call a lawyer.
Edit: if you want to play nice contact the HR department.
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On January 29 2014 02:46 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:41 Wolfstan wrote:
If I've been convinced that gender wage-gap exists, what should I do as an employee? At my place of employment there is about 25 male employees and one female(in reception). What policies should a back a as a voter.
If will never be for affirmative action and hiring quotas BTW. If you find out that you're paying men more than women for doing the same job, you simply need to pay women the same amount. Why was that so hard to figure out?
We have no male receptionists, and our 1 female technician was getting paid as much per hour as our male techs. She just wasn't getting the 60 hours of OT.
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On January 29 2014 03:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:41 Wolfstan wrote:
If I've been convinced that gender wage-gap exists, what should I do as an employee? At my place of employment there is about 25 male employees and one female(in reception). What policies should a back a as a voter.
If will never be for affirmative action and hiring quotas BTW. If Canadian law is like US law, get data and call a lawyer. Edit: if you want to play nice contact the HR department.
I don't believe it's happening in my circle of influence, I just assume it's happening somewhere.
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On January 29 2014 03:38 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 29 2014 02:41 Wolfstan wrote:
If I've been convinced that gender wage-gap exists, what should I do as an employee? At my place of employment there is about 25 male employees and one female(in reception). What policies should a back a as a voter.
If will never be for affirmative action and hiring quotas BTW. If Canadian law is like US law, get data and call a lawyer. Edit: if you want to play nice contact the HR department. I don't believe it's happening in my circle of influence, I just assume it's happening somewhere.
You just assume your employer is breaking the law somewhere?
You may just want to have a friendly chat with your manager or HR over pay practices and what safeguards they employ.
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Don't even bother bringing it up unless you have real proof of it. Right now, it doesn't look like you do.
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Yeah maybe I can ask for my summer temp to be female, but I don't think there are many female forklift operators looking for summer employment. Anecdotally I think the gender roles are alive and well in Calgary, we have very little female applicants for civil engineering, logistics, or technicians. Our 1 female technician resigned to start a family. It might be a generational thing too, but I'm very confident our HR is on the level.
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On January 28 2014 12:48 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 12:45 Ghostcom wrote:On January 28 2014 12:17 Nyxisto wrote:
Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
The socialist states are a pretty good example(well they're not a good example for pretty much anything else) that if the "western christian" values and norms aren't in place you'll find yourself pretty fast in a society where women are equally represented in western "men dominated" fields. I think that's a pretty strong indicator that the whole "science is for man, education for women" thing is really a western/religious cultural thing. (for example the Soviet military or hard science) So am I to understand that you are measuring the gender equality of a society based on the gender distribution in professions expecting it to mirror that of the population (i.e. 50:50 if there is a 1:1 ratio of men:women)? All I'm saying is that we had large societies in very recent history in which we came really close to equal representation, which seems to be a big hint that at least when it comes to work our inequalities are based on "western culture" heavily influenced by religion and not biological.
No disagreement that more equal representation would be great, and that social conditions are strongly against it. The pressures against stay-at-home dads are a bigger part of the picture than often credited: if men were more willing to do housework, more women would make the big bucks.
That said, the West's cultural heritage comes from Greece via Rome. Gender discrimination in each of these states was vastly worse than at any time in Christian history. The Greeks were very happy to discriminate against women, but the basis for this was firmly "scientific" and "biological."
See also:
+ Show Spoiler +
Plato's Symposium: women are incapable of higher forms of love, as compared to men, according to most speakers. Real love is necessarily homosexual.
(or compare)
Hesiod's creation story: women are a punishment meted out by the gods
(with)
Gen. 1: where they are created both simultaneously, both in the image of God (who is therefore implicitly both male and female)
Gen 2 --where the woman seems to be in charge of the man, with the eventual subjugation is seen as one of the evils of a fallen world, to be struggled against the same way one struggles against disease.
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On January 29 2014 00:51 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:48 WhiteDog wrote:
Also the idea that women dominate in teaching is retarded, they dominate for low grades only. In universities most teachers are men. Well, that is a bit oversimplified. In most countries women are slightly overrepresented compared to the percentage of women that are PhD students, when it comes to the lowest rank of professional academia. But are progressively more underrepresented as you look at higher and higher academic ranks. Female academic professionals also more often say they prefer teaching vs research, and on average spend more time teaching instead of researching when compared to men. I don't know what this means for the total representation of women as university teachers, since I can't find any data.
PhD students are irrelevant to the matters : it is a generational question, as I have hinted, phD students are young by nature, just like lowest rank professionnal academia, and I'm not sure the gender gap is as big for them. Plus phD students are students  Women are more efficient in study overall since some years now in most occidentals countries.
On the flip side, if you want numbers, in France 34 % of the "conference masters" (lowest grade of university teachers) are women, and they have a hard time ranking up (for "director of research" they are less than 15 %). So they do not dominate (while they do dominate in teaching with kids, by a high margin).
It also depend on the discipline, they are higher in less "legitimate" disciplines, such as sociology (where they are about 40 %) and less in hard science like physics.
(source but in french, from the ministry of national education http://www.intefp-sstfp.travail.gouv.fr/datas/files/SSTFP/2000_Enseignants_chercheurs_et_universite_la_place_de_femmes_Boukhobza_Delavault_Hermann.pdf)
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The state of our union is....well, it depends on who you happen to listen to.
President Barack Obama will deliver his annual State of the Union address Tuesday night where he is expected to make the case for government as a force for good at a time where conservative-driven focus on deficits has paralyzed Washington from taking meaningful action to create jobs and bolster the economy.
The official GOP response is set to be delivered immediately after by Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R-WA), the fourth-ranking Republican in the House, who will appeal to women voters on behalf of a party that has often found itself marred by wild musings on abortion and rape.
Americans will also get a rebuttal from Tea Party Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT), who supported a quixotic effort to shut down the government, that will follow the President as well. Or they can tune in to a pre-recorded address by Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), a possible 2016 contender, which will air on YouTube after Obama finishes speaking.
Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL) announced Monday she will deliver her own State of the Union response in Spanish that will be televised by CNN, Telemundo Univision and other channels.
Source
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On January 29 2014 05:28 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 00:51 Crushinator wrote:On January 28 2014 23:48 WhiteDog wrote:
Also the idea that women dominate in teaching is retarded, they dominate for low grades only. In universities most teachers are men. Well, that is a bit oversimplified. In most countries women are slightly overrepresented compared to the percentage of women that are PhD students, when it comes to the lowest rank of professional academia. But are progressively more underrepresented as you look at higher and higher academic ranks. Female academic professionals also more often say they prefer teaching vs research, and on average spend more time teaching instead of researching when compared to men. I don't know what this means for the total representation of women as university teachers, since I can't find any data. PhD students are irrelevant to the matters : it is a generational question, as I have hinted, phD students are young by nature, just like lowest rank professionnal academia, and I'm not sure the gender gap is as big for them. On the flip side, if you want numbers, in France 34 % of the "conference masters" (lowest grade of university teachers) are women, and they have a hard time ranking up (for "director of research" they are less than 15 %). So they do not dominate (while they do dominate in teaching with kids, by a high margin). It also depend on the discipline, they are higher in less "legitimate" disciplines, such as sociology (where they are about 40 %) and less in hard science like physics. (source but in french, from the ministry of national education http://www.intefp-sstfp.travail.gouv.fr/datas/files/SSTFP/2000_Enseignants_chercheurs_et_universite_la_place_de_femmes_Boukhobza_Delavault_Hermann.pdf)
The reason I mentioned PhD students was because that is the pool of people that is hired from for the lowest rank, atleast I think that to determine whether hring policies in academia are discriminatory you would look whether women are under or over represented compared to the distribution of PhD students. Looking at the lowest rank of academia, the distribution looks fine, or even favors women, but moving up the ranks it becomes more and more skewed in favor of men.
http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-academia
There is more evidence that there is no gender discrimination when it comes to entry-level jobs, or that this favors women.
http://ftp.iza.org/dp4690.pdf
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On January 29 2014 06:33 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 05:28 WhiteDog wrote:On January 29 2014 00:51 Crushinator wrote:On January 28 2014 23:48 WhiteDog wrote:
Also the idea that women dominate in teaching is retarded, they dominate for low grades only. In universities most teachers are men. Well, that is a bit oversimplified. In most countries women are slightly overrepresented compared to the percentage of women that are PhD students, when it comes to the lowest rank of professional academia. But are progressively more underrepresented as you look at higher and higher academic ranks. Female academic professionals also more often say they prefer teaching vs research, and on average spend more time teaching instead of researching when compared to men. I don't know what this means for the total representation of women as university teachers, since I can't find any data. PhD students are irrelevant to the matters : it is a generational question, as I have hinted, phD students are young by nature, just like lowest rank professionnal academia, and I'm not sure the gender gap is as big for them. On the flip side, if you want numbers, in France 34 % of the "conference masters" (lowest grade of university teachers) are women, and they have a hard time ranking up (for "director of research" they are less than 15 %). So they do not dominate (while they do dominate in teaching with kids, by a high margin). It also depend on the discipline, they are higher in less "legitimate" disciplines, such as sociology (where they are about 40 %) and less in hard science like physics. (source but in french, from the ministry of national education http://www.intefp-sstfp.travail.gouv.fr/datas/files/SSTFP/2000_Enseignants_chercheurs_et_universite_la_place_de_femmes_Boukhobza_Delavault_Hermann.pdf) The reason I mentioned PhD students was because that is the pool of people that is hired from for the lowest rank, atleast I think that to determine whether hring policies in academia are discriminatory you would look whether women are under or over represented compared to the distribution of PhD students. Looking at the lowest rank of academia, the distribution looks fine, or even favors women, but moving up the ranks it becomes more and more skewed in favor of men. http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-academiaThere is more evidence that there is no gender discrimination when it comes to entry-level jobs, or that this favors women. http://ftp.iza.org/dp4690.pdf
And what ? My point still stands, academics is not dominated by women at all, fact is men still dominates it. And yes, entry level jobs might be different, so - as I hinted - if you take into consideration the generation, one might even see a disappearance of gender inequalities.
There is even a case that could be made that in 20 to 30 years (when the current generation are out of work), most of the gender gap would disappear.
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On January 29 2014 06:46 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 06:33 Crushinator wrote:On January 29 2014 05:28 WhiteDog wrote:On January 29 2014 00:51 Crushinator wrote:On January 28 2014 23:48 WhiteDog wrote:
Also the idea that women dominate in teaching is retarded, they dominate for low grades only. In universities most teachers are men. Well, that is a bit oversimplified. In most countries women are slightly overrepresented compared to the percentage of women that are PhD students, when it comes to the lowest rank of professional academia. But are progressively more underrepresented as you look at higher and higher academic ranks. Female academic professionals also more often say they prefer teaching vs research, and on average spend more time teaching instead of researching when compared to men. I don't know what this means for the total representation of women as university teachers, since I can't find any data. PhD students are irrelevant to the matters : it is a generational question, as I have hinted, phD students are young by nature, just like lowest rank professionnal academia, and I'm not sure the gender gap is as big for them. On the flip side, if you want numbers, in France 34 % of the "conference masters" (lowest grade of university teachers) are women, and they have a hard time ranking up (for "director of research" they are less than 15 %). So they do not dominate (while they do dominate in teaching with kids, by a high margin). It also depend on the discipline, they are higher in less "legitimate" disciplines, such as sociology (where they are about 40 %) and less in hard science like physics. (source but in french, from the ministry of national education http://www.intefp-sstfp.travail.gouv.fr/datas/files/SSTFP/2000_Enseignants_chercheurs_et_universite_la_place_de_femmes_Boukhobza_Delavault_Hermann.pdf) The reason I mentioned PhD students was because that is the pool of people that is hired from for the lowest rank, atleast I think that to determine whether hring policies in academia are discriminatory you would look whether women are under or over represented compared to the distribution of PhD students. Looking at the lowest rank of academia, the distribution looks fine, or even favors women, but moving up the ranks it becomes more and more skewed in favor of men. http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-academiaThere is more evidence that there is no gender discrimination when it comes to entry-level jobs, or that this favors women. http://ftp.iza.org/dp4690.pdf And what ? My point still stands, academics is not dominated by women at all, fact is men still dominates it. And yes, entry level jobs might be different, so - as I hinted - if you take into consideration the generation, one might even see a disappearance of gender inequalities. There is even a case that could be made that in 20 to 30 years (when the current generation are out of work), most of the gender gap would disappear.
And nothing. I am offering support for your points. But I don't think the gap will disappear so easily, the step from rank to rank seems so large.
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Conservative radio host Sean Hannity on Monday proposed that women create an "adopt-a-woman" program to provide birth control to those who cannot afford it, while discussing former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee's (R) comments last week that the government should not help women who can't control "their libido or their reproductive system."
"Why should Americans be paying the nine dollars a month for birth control pills that you can get at Walmart?" Hannity asked a female caller on his radio show. "Why should especially Catholics, and people of faith, and Christians and people of other faiths that this is against their religious teachings, and condoms are relatively inexpensive."
Hannity asked why people like Huckabee were accused of "waging a war on women" when discussing birth control.
Source
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Yeesh, what idiots. They wanna rail against welfare programs, then refuse to support one of the most basic ways of keeping welfare costs down.
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"Why prevent irresponsible behavior when we could just tell people to be responsible?"
Because that won't ever work. Ever, ever, ever, ever. It is not possible. It just won't happen. So move on and do what has been shown to help.
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EPT
